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Post by Dear Leader on Jun 16, 2023 5:55:17 GMT -8
Have any model locomotives been releaded that were correct in everyway, not needing fans, radiator grills, steps, etc replaced? All a modeler had to do was put it on the track and revel in having bought a perfect, correct model, no modifications needed.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jun 16, 2023 6:05:38 GMT -8
Bachmann's Thomas the Tank Engine...
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Post by sd80mac on Jun 16, 2023 6:49:08 GMT -8
I would submit the P2K/Walthers Proto Alco RS27. I have never seen another HO diesel arrive with fine details executed so well that simultaneously are incredibly robust and don't break off just by looking at them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 6:59:03 GMT -8
I would agree with the RS-27. Studied them, read all about them, and owned several back in the day. Fantastic models with fantastic dyed delrin handrails--flexible and difficult though not impossible to break.
Current releases: The latest Athearn Genesis 2.0 units, many of them are very correct for the individual roadname and even road number they represent. I'll highlight 2 models:
IC/ICG SD-70: The model is a correct Illinois Central version as last built during 1999. The current paint schemes (ICG orange and white and IC green diamond) are not correct as they were never painted on one of the SD-70's in real life.
C44-9W models: So far as I'm aware these are truly stunning models as good as anything I've ever seen in HO with see-through grills etc. I believe both ATSF/Santa Fe as delivered and the later BNSF red/silver versions are correct models even down to correct prototype ditch light locations (Athearn did both versions above and below walkway ditch lights). They have the correct Santa Fe gull wing roof to clear coal unloader facilities on that railroad. Regarding truck details they are supposed to be correct for each individual road number as they do differ in real life.
Also just yesterday I picked up a Genesis 2.0 CN C44-9W. It has the correct modified windshields for CN and open grate walkways where prototypically correct (in snow country CN wants the snow etc. to pass through or off the walkways). Just phenomenally detailed model. I put it on the track and ran it.
ScaleTrains current release models: Most of them are supposed to be road number specifically correct. Put them on the track and run them. I personally have not found any modeling errors other than some folks complain about the particular verison of SD45 that ST chose to do allegedly not being the most in-demand variations. The models themselves are to my knowledge correct for the time period ST states. I can't find any issues with the Santa Fe SD45's--they are correct early 1970's blue and yellow warbonnet models, before later ATSF modifications.
Most Athearn Genesis models: Allegedly the same as ScaleTrains excepting Athearn does do/has done some fantasy schemes that were not ever worn by those models (like the ICG orange/white and IC black with green diamond paint schemes on SD70's I discussed above). Put them on the track and run them.
Most current or new release Bowser models are road number specific correct (definitely does not include all previous releases of U25B or early Bowser/former Stewart diesels).
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Post by gevohogger on Jun 16, 2023 7:03:10 GMT -8
It wouldn't be my Overland Models Coast Daylight GS-4, that's for sure!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 7:08:31 GMT -8
Model by definition means a good approximation. Not everything can ever be scaled down 100% into an operable small-scale model that will stay on the track and run. Particularly with steam locos. Real question is which one steam loco drive axle do you want to be in the correct position, because all others get compromised.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 16, 2023 7:18:59 GMT -8
I would submit the P2K/Walthers Proto Alco RS27. I have never seen another HO diesel arrive with fine details executed so well that simultaneously are incredibly robust and don't break off just by looking at them.
While no model's perfect, the RS-27 shell & details are super-nice. Runs pretty well too. Probably the best handrails.
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Post by drolsen on Jun 16, 2023 7:19:44 GMT -8
I think for me personally, there are two aspects to judging a locomotive - prototypically correctly vs. quality of the details. You could have all the appropriate details present, but some of them are oversized or poorly rendered. It also may depend on the roadname. One paint scheme on a particular model may be almost perfect, but another scheme on the same model could be a compromise because of a unique detail that the manufacturer chose not to replicate. I know that’s stating the obvious, but I think that makes a straight answer to the question a little challenging. As an example, I think the Bowser GMD SD40-2 is a fantastic model, with all the variations they’ve produced. I think they’re nearly perfect in terms of all the details that are present, but if I were to nitpick, I’d say that the handrails could be a little thinner, and replacing the fans with Cannon’s fans would improve the model’s appearance. One detail that is always a compromise on diesels is the draft gear buffer plate in the middle of the pilot face. To make regular model couplers operate reliably, the buffer plate is usually about 2-3 times as wide on models compared to the prototype. That’s something that jumps out at me when I look at a diesel model, and something I’d like to correct on my Bowser SD40-2s. If you look at the ScaleTrains GP30, they did a really great job making their buffer plate as narrow as possible. I haven’t had a chance to look over my one CSX slug yet, but here’s a prototype photo for reference: CSX 2211For comparison, the model photos show that the buffer plate width looks to be as close as I could ask for to the prototype: ScaleTrains CSX RDMT Road SlugI’ll have to inspect the rest of the model when I have a chance, but I think the details look to be a great match for the CSX slug as it appeared in the late 1980s / early 1990s (my prototype photo was taken a decade later). Dave |
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Post by Baikal on Jun 16, 2023 7:26:11 GMT -8
...Real question is which one steam loco drive axle do you want to be in the correct position, because all others get compromised.
Usually, but not always. This was discussed & dismissed a couple months ago. There are steam locos with axles spaced so that no compromise for flanges, or whatever, is needed on an HO scale model.
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Post by sd80mac on Jun 16, 2023 7:41:07 GMT -8
I will definitely toss my hat in for the Bowser GMD SD40-2 as well. Fantastic models.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 16, 2023 8:41:15 GMT -8
...Real question is which one steam loco drive axle do you want to be in the correct position, because all others get compromised. Usually, but not always. This was discussed & dismissed a couple months ago. There are steam locos with axles spaced so that no compromise for flanges, or whatever, is needed on an HO scale model.
A lot of 4-6-0's will qualify for that. Plus "all" 4-4-0's. Most 2-6-2's, I would think. Ed |
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sdevo
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Post by sdevo on Jun 16, 2023 9:04:34 GMT -8
Id say the Bowser GMD SD40-2. Especially the BC Rail model. They put the BC Rail specific steps as well as an angle on the rocklights. My other pick would be the CN and BC Rail Dash-9 with the Canadian specific safety cabs. First time offered in HO with those details and they nailed it.
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cn2240
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Post by cn2240 on Jun 16, 2023 9:44:34 GMT -8
From what I've getting at, you mean perfect from an aesthetic point of view. If that is the case, then I'd probably say that would be the Aurora SD60F. Aesthetically, it looks beautiful and has all the lighting features that most models don't have. While saying that, it's certainly not the perfect model in every other department (very noisy motor, soft sound that easily gets drowned out by aforementioned noisy motor, underwhelming pulling power, etc).
When it comes to all-round models that are close to perfection, I'd say the ScaleTrains Rivet Counter ET44AC, ES44AC, and C44-9W are probably the best in today's market.
The Athearn Genesis 2.0 C44-9W and C44-9WL would also be up there if it wasn't for the somewhat underwhelming Dash-9 sound file from the Tsunami2 decoders. If taking sound out of the equation, I'd put them up there with the ScaleTrains models.
Another honorable mention would be the Athearn Genesis 2.0 SD70M-2. I personally prefer the Tsunami2 EMD-710 sound file over the one from LokSound. I just wished these models had a bit pulling power to match that of the Dash-9s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 10:44:33 GMT -8
...Real question is which one steam loco drive axle do you want to be in the correct position, because all others get compromised.
Usually, but not always. This was discussed & dismissed a couple months ago. There are steam locos with axles spaced so that no compromise for flanges, or whatever, is needed on an HO scale model.
Bullcrap dismissed, maybe by you, but not legitimately dismissed. You clearly think you know it all, and you just do not. There are other compromises made beyond merely flange depth, including brake shoe clearance, gearbox location, etc. etc. Even if all 8 drivers of an articulated were perfectly dead on located (which never happened), the actual pivot point between front and rear engines varies considerably between models of the exact same prototype--partly based upon model aesthetics and curve overhang of pilot and cab. I've personally talked to professional engineers that developed the build packages for Challenger Imports/Samhongsa steam engines and they clearly say that not every drive axle can be in the same place. Others like Howard Zane will tell you when they tried to do that the models couldn't run down a track tangent without issues, let alone negotiate curves. Unless you ever signed off on actual steam loco erection drawings back in the day, I'll trust the retired mechanical engineers' words over yours. Also, I worked for a model train company and actually made parts of the models, including casting, milling, drilling, turning armatures, you name it. I know what compromises were actually made to make them look and run well in HO. On a daily basis I got to see the research and development of new models as it progressed. Did you do any of that? They do the best they can but models are approximations. John |
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Post by fr8kar on Jun 16, 2023 10:46:48 GMT -8
When it comes to all-round models that are close to perfection, I'd say the ScaleTrains Rivet Counter ET44AC, ES44AC, and C44-9W are probably the best in today's market. Those are out of my era but I would put the ScaleTrains C39-8 in the same category. I have two from the first release and another three on order. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 16, 2023 11:07:35 GMT -8
models in my fleet that are pretty much perfect that I can think of:
- Athearn Genesis SD70ACU
- Athearn Genesis SD60M Triclops
- Athearn Genesis C44-9W and C44-9WL
- Athearn Genesis GMD GP38-2W and GP40-2L
- Bowser GMD SD40-2, SD40-2F, SD40-3, SD30C-ECO
Do freight cars count? In which case I would add:
- Tangent PS 4750
- Tangent GA Airslide
- Atlas Gunderson MultiMax autorack
- Aurora Gunderson 50' Hicube boxcar
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 16, 2023 11:11:42 GMT -8
Usually, but not always. This was discussed & dismissed a couple months ago. There are steam locos with axles spaced so that no compromise for flanges, or whatever, is needed on an HO scale model.
Bullcrap dismissed, maybe by you, but not legitimately dismissed. You clearly think you know it all, and you just do not. There are other compromises made beyond merely flange depth, including brake shoe clearance, gearbox location, etc. etc. Even if all 8 drivers of an articulated were perfectly dead on located (which never happened), the actual pivot point between front and rear engines varies considerably between models of the exact same prototype--partly based upon model aesthetics and curve overhang of pilot and cab. I've personally talked to professional engineers that developed the build packages for Challenger Imports/Samhongsa steam engines and they clearly say that not every drive axle can be in the same place. Others like Howard Zane will tell you when they tried to do that the models couldn't run down a track tangent without issues, let alone negotiate curves. Unless you ever signed off on actual steam loco erection drawings back in the day, I'll trust the retired mechanical engineers' words over yours. Also, I worked for a model train company and actually made parts of the models, including casting, milling, drilling, turning armatures, you name it. I know what compromises were actually made to make them look and run well in HO. On a daily basis I got to see the research and development of new models as it progressed. Did you do any of that? They do the best they can but models are approximations. John Sorry John, but he's right and you're wrong. I just measured the axle spacing on my Kidder LS&MS 4-6-0, and the drive axle spacing is dead-on to the plans. Ed |
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Post by rockfan on Jun 16, 2023 11:14:04 GMT -8
I want to know what "releaded" is.
I'm surprised nobody has said Genesis F units.
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 16, 2023 11:23:59 GMT -8
I would put the Genesis F's pretty high up, thanks of course to Paul Lubliner.
Bowser RS3's.
Proto SW1200's & SD7/9's.
If we are talking freight cars - Anything by Tangent. They set the bar. Pretty happy with my Rapido FlexiFlo cars also.
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Post by loco8107 on Jun 16, 2023 12:04:05 GMT -8
The Genesis GP38-2’s. And most GP15-1’s.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 12:45:19 GMT -8
Ed--
Did you also check the axle diameters? Bet you didn't check the driver locations relative to the cab, smokebox front etc. You might get surprised.
I absolutely know I'm right on this. MOST model manufacturers have to make significant compromises especially on steam. IF they actually got the driver centers equally spaced, then in many cases they compromised on driver diameter, a prototype inch here, a prototype inch there, to get things to work. Think Rivarossi (well known examples), but also Oriental Limited Powerhouse, etc. etc. Doesn't make them evil or horrible, they were doing what they could at the time within budget constraints.
Also in real life N&W for certain varied driver diameters to allow for real world driver wear, which is documented clearly in books about the Y-class 2-8-8-2's. The tolerance was as much as 1" in total, or plus/minus a half inch, if I recall correctly.
BLI builds all kinds of lateral motion into their drive mechanisms beyond merely just blind drivers (Santa Fe 2-10-2 for example) just to get them to negotiate model curves. There are all kinds of "hidden" compromises, like the beveled edge (unprototypical) on the inside of the BLI 2-10-2 blind driver.
Prototype UP 4-12-2's did NOT have blind drivers. The first one was factually originally built with at least one blind driver set, but UP for various reasons opted to eliminate blind drivers or at least ONE of them, according to Kratville's extensively researched books on the 4-12-2. He talked to the people who actually built and maintained them. The 9000 may have been shipped with 2 blind drivers from Alco, but UP quickly modified at least one of them.
People got all upset at Rapido for not correctly modeling the Seaboard step wells on B36-7's, but what you don't know is that, not on that particular model, but others I can name--some of which people on here are saying are "perfect"--there are actually hidden model phases not ever documented by Diesel Era or anybody else. MORE variations that what Diesel Era's staff ever noticed, that ARE noticed when a company begins to produce 3D drawings of a model.
For budget reasons NOT all variations can be modeled in HO plastic in a rtr diesel. I am NOT at liberty to disclose actual real world model examples; the manufacturer does not want to be trashed as some already have been. Some variations are so subtle as the air tank bracket locations varying on the prototype relative to the handrail stanchion locations. That's a real hint, but I can't tell you which prototype.
I absolutely positively know I'm in the right on this specific issue, 100% beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Models are approximations, the best that can reasonably be done. Nothing on this earth is ever 100% perfect.
John
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sd50f
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Post by sd50f on Jun 16, 2023 12:49:44 GMT -8
I remember seeing an advertisement (not sure if it was online or in one of the big magazines) back in the late 90s/early 2000s from an outfit that I think was located in Pennsylvania. The company claimed they were bringing out EMD locomotives that were supposed to be almost miniature versions of the real thing. Multi-level etched doors with working latches and hinges. Fans that rotated. Exact lighting based on the prototype, even on the control stand in the cab. Realistic sprung trucks. Paint applied by a professional painter. Fully built by them with nothing for you to do but put it on the track and enjoy.
Now, the price was going to be something in the range of $500-900 dollars for one locomotive, and the ad stated that there was a full warranty on it, unless you ran it wrong or "Junior dropped it down the stairs".
I only saw it once, and then it was gone. I don't think anything was ever released by them.
May have been an April Fool's joke, or it may have been some pipe dream from an overzealous manufacturer, but from the description in the ad it was going to be the perfect locomotive.
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Post by gevohogger on Jun 16, 2023 12:50:50 GMT -8
People got all upset at Rapido for not correctly modeling the Seaboard step wells on B36-7's... I think the complaints came not because they didn't correctly model the SBD step wells, but because they said they were going to do so and then they didn't. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 16, 2023 13:15:06 GMT -8
Ed-- Did you also check the axle diameters? Bet you didn't check the driver locations relative to the cab, smokebox front etc. You might get surprised. John I did not. I was responding to your comment: "Real question is which one steam loco drive axle do you want to be in the correct position, because all others get compromised." And Baikal's response to that: "Usually, but not always." And, as I said, I found a model that has drive axles spaced at the prototype distance. I since found another: a W&R GN 0-6-0. For both models, I also checked the dimension from the rear-most axle to the back of the cab, and those dimensions match, also. Ed |
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Post by hudsonyard on Jun 16, 2023 13:17:38 GMT -8
Accurail 40' boxcar
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Post by Baikal on Jun 16, 2023 13:22:50 GMT -8
Usually, but not always. This was discussed & dismissed a couple months ago. There are steam locos with axles spaced so that no compromise for flanges, or whatever, is needed on an HO scale model.
Bullcrap dismissed, maybe by you, but not legitimately dismissed. You clearly think you know it all, and you just do not. There are other compromises made beyond merely flange depth, including brake shoe clearance, gearbox location, etc. etc. Even if all 8 drivers of an articulated were perfectly dead on located (which never happened), the actual pivot point between front and rear engines varies considerably between models of the exact same prototype--partly based upon model aesthetics and curve overhang of pilot and cab. I've personally talked to professional engineers that developed the build packages for Challenger Imports/Samhongsa steam engines and they clearly say that not every drive axle can be in the same place. Others like Howard Zane will tell you when they tried to do that the models couldn't run down a track tangent without issues, let alone negotiate curves. Unless you ever signed off on actual steam loco erection drawings back in the day, I'll trust the retired mechanical engineers' words over yours. Also, I worked for a model train company and actually made parts of the models, including casting, milling, drilling, turning armatures, you name it. I know what compromises were actually made to make them look and run well in HO. On a daily basis I got to see the research and development of new models as it progressed. Did you do any of that? They do the best they can but models are approximations. John
You wrote: "...Real question is which one steam loco drive axle do you want to be in the correct position, because all others get compromised."
I don't think you know what "all" means.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 16, 2023 13:26:48 GMT -8
Usually, but not always. This was discussed & dismissed a couple months ago. There are steam locos with axles spaced so that no compromise for flanges, or whatever, is needed on an HO scale model.
A lot of 4-6-0's will qualify for that. Plus "all" 4-4-0's. Most 2-6-2's, I would think. Ed
That's a fact. Also geared locomotives.
This is a weird hill to die on.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 16, 2023 13:31:20 GMT -8
For me, the perfect model is the McChicken, the best fast food sandwich....
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 16, 2023 14:09:10 GMT -8
I have to add one - A very underappreciated model if I do say so myself..
The Proto 2000 Alco S1/S3. It has fantastic detail, great handrails, runs and pulls good, easy to DCC (baring you start fresh)..
Proto does not get the recognition it deserves when it comes to the well detailed stuff we have now. They really started that movement with the BL2 in what, 1990?
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Post by Baikal on Jun 16, 2023 14:41:06 GMT -8
I have to add one - A very underappreciated model if I do say so myself.. The Proto 2000 Alco S1/S3. It has fantastic detail, great handrails, runs and pulls good, easy to DCC (baring you start fresh).. Proto does not get the recognition it deserves when it comes to the well detailed stuff we have now. They really started that movement with the BL2 in what, 1990?
I have a few Alco S-series switchers, both Proto 2000 and Atlas. Both look & run well. Weathered, they're hard to tell apart.
I see Atlas has upgraded the switcher cabs and for the first time ever in plastic, added the later welded cabs on appropriate models. This is a big deal, I hadn't noticed this on the latest releases. Note the lack of most rivets and the round-corner windows, which were very difficult to model.
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