Photo discusion

[loco8107]

And there are plenty of folks today who also post pics but nowhere near as clear or looking as great as they should for all of us to enjoy because of the same reasons.

[loco8107]

Mar 28, 2024 16:30:46 GMT -8 pjm20 said:

Mar 28, 2024 16:07:05 GMT -8 cera2254 said:

 Personally I’ve never understood the fascination or why people will pay for slides.

There wasn't digital cameras when I model, so I buy slides or I buy books with a bunch of pictures I don't need to find a few photos I would like to reference. Books tend to get expensive and heavy. 

For photos pre mid-2000’s when digital cameras took off, there is no better option. Slides can also be made into prints if needed and only slides get used to make books. Prints do not turn into good book photos and never did. I am a print guy myself and know that all too well. Not all of us only care about doing everything online hence why we like books and photo albums. When we had to learn how to use a camera properly -especially the more expensive ones, unlike the digital ones we all use that do everything for you for the most part.

[patch job]

 Not that anybody here has bad intentions but thievery is epidemic on the internet. Routinely, videos are stolen and monetized by the thief. Books, art, photographs, everything creative is at risk. Even with proper protections and safeguards, you'll have to expect it. Even if you have nothing to do with the internet, it's a problem. I wrote some magazines decades ago (pre-internet) and they are all scanned online on various websites. That would discourage many people from buying originals. So, if I were to do something creative in the future regarding model railroading like write a book or release a model or even come up with a cool, marketable idea for a fictitious railroad layout...I would not share anything online until preparations and the proper promotional infrastructure were in place. It might not protect you completely BUT at least the world would know where the ideas are really from. This would especially be true for a new model railroad company spending years of research on their first product. Whatever you share will be stolen. It sucks but there's nothing you can realistically do about it...except not share until the right time. Honor and integrity are in short supply in today's world. We all know that. It gets worse every day.   

[loco8107]

Exactly patch job and I’m fine with people making copies for their own use and knowledge but there’s little respect out there anymore. THAT is what I was issue with, as do many others. And rightfully so.

[loco8107]

Not to get OT but not only is thievery out of control on the internet, especially FB, but so is peoples behavior overall which is why a lot of us left groups or post a lot less useful info for others to know.

[loco8107]

You know the saddest part of all this is if things were different all around- how many good and not so common pics were never seen by others because the photographer passed away and god knows what happened to the slides and such as most families don’t take that stuff as seriously as we and their departed loved ones do? If it wasn’t for the thieves out there, more would be shared. Take for example a long time railroad that no longer exists around where you live didn’t have many public pics or in books from a certain time period and the few taken were never seen because of how people are and all that went to waste after the photographer passed. It all boils down to respect. The internet and then photoshop has thrown gasoline on a raging fire in that respect. I see both sides of the issue and it shouldn’t have come down to this in todays world.

[patch job]

LOCO!

You seem like a sensible voice in this debate. I too see both sides. I've already discussed plans on acquiring my Dad's slide collection from the 1970s and sharing it with the world after he's gone. Otherwise, the family would probably just throw the stuff in the dumpster. I am the only one in the family, besides my Dad, that cares about his train stuff. It's not going to do him any good to take those slides to the grave. There's no sense in throwing away history.

[loco8107]

Exactly! Growing up in the 80’s in southern NJ, I have seen plenty of slides and books about the pre Conrail years but very little since until the mid-2000’s when everyone was taking pics. How many folks took local pics around here and never saw a book yet alone the internet? That’s history gone for good! Before FB took off I was on a local yahoo group and actually reached out the the group owner, who I knew, and mentioned about posting a page of pics regarding local RR history from ‘76 thru that time and he told me he tried to do that. The biggest problem he encountered was most folks didn’t want to share their pics at all. How many are passed on and have collections that will never see the light of day? I didn’t get out taking pics until early 2000 so I missed out on that. Thankfully there’s one member on one of the FB groups that does graciously share his pics but not as sharp as the slide is because of the internet thieves as he saw some of his friends become victims. I honestly can’t blame him because those guys didn’t do it for the money that’s for sure.

[loco8107]

Believe me I see the respect and money issue but my biggest concern is the inevitable permanent disposal of history. When that happens, we all lose. A lot of us weren’t able to get out during those times.

[Baikal]

Mar 31, 2024 7:23:34 GMT -8 loco8107 said:

Exactly! Growing up in the 80’s in southern NJ, I have seen plenty of slides and books about the pre Conrail years but very little since until the mid-2000’s when everyone was taking pics. How many folks took local pics around here and never saw a book yet alone the internet? That’s history gone for good! Before FB took off I was on a local yahoo group and actually reached out the the group owner, who I knew, and mentioned about posting a page of pics regarding local RR history from ‘76 thru that time and he told me he tried to do that. The biggest problem he encountered was most folks didn’t want to share their pics at all. How many are passed on and have collections that will never see the light of day? I didn’t get out taking pics until early 2000 so I missed out on that. Thankfully there’s one member on one of the FB groups that does graciously share his pics but not as sharp as the slide is because of the internet thieves as he saw some of his friends become victims. I honestly can’t blame him because those guys didn’t do it for the money that’s for sure.

I've been a member of some online RR historical groups where people have bragged that, unless enough money is paid, they'll take their collected knowlege, photos, whatever, to the grave.  Aka screw everyone else that can't recognize their "value".

This isn't limited to RR stuff, you see it when people fill their garage, yard, house with "collectables" be it dolls or rusting cars or even real estate, holding out for someone to come along and realize what a treasure they have.  Then they die.

My mother worked for RCA during the late 40s-early50s.  She saved about 200 records- common ones plus odd stuff, things that wern't released, bloopers, etc.  We always thought they were worth some money.  Moved them four times to different houses. Heavy.  After she passed I couldn't sell them for more than a few dollars.  I ended up giving some away, tossing the rest.

[loco8107]

I agree. Taking it to your grave is pointless, but a lot of those folks are too stubborn for their own good. I guess when you think about it- how much money, aside from a manufacturer using it or such, are these pirates really making off selling photos? Probably not much at all. Most people don’t have or won’t spend that kind of money for the “prize photo/slide”. It’s the dishonesty of people I have a problem with not the money thing. Unfortunately, everywhere you go in life (including hobbies) you are always going to have the dishonest bunch. Just have to steer clear of them the best you can.

[loco8107]

A look on eBay (I see a lot) will show a lot of slides and especially prints don't sell quickly or for much money either. Except in rare cases, the more expensive slides are still up for bid months later. And I’m sure it’ll stay that way. Some kind of line needs to be drawn but I’m worried the most of the not sharing the knowledge or photo recorded history. Even seeing all of that of before my time has further captured my interest in the hobby as even my generation missed out on a lot because the world vastly changed by then.

[Colin 't Hart]

Mar 31, 2024 9:28:21 GMT -8 loco8107 said:

A look on eBay (I see a lot) will show a lot of slides and especially prints don't sell quickly or for much money either. Except in rare cases, the more expensive slides are still up for bid months later. And I’m sure it’ll stay that way. Some kind of line needs to be drawn but I’m worried the most of the not sharing the knowledge or photo recorded history. Even seeing all of that of before my time has further captured my interest in the hobby as even my generation missed out on a lot because the world vastly changed by then.

Hmm. This is news to me. Most of the slides I'm interested in sell.

[loco8107]

They do but a lot doesn’t, especially the more expensive ones, unless they’re that much of a gem which seems to be a lot less often than even several years ago. I bought around 80 slides from 2016-2018 and on rare occasions will buy one these days.

[12bridge]

Generic slides usually sit, but special interest topics? The market is alive and well.  I have seen Milwaukee electric shots crack $400.  

[loco8107]

Apr 1, 2024 9:50:54 GMT -8 12bridge said:

Generic slides usually sit, but special interest topics? The market is alive and well.  I have seen Milwaukee electric shots crack $400.  

And that’s what I don’t get. It’s the generic stuff that people don’t want to post on groups.

[Mr. Trainiac]

The biggest issue is when slide collections get broken up. I want to credit photographers and learn their stories about the slides they took, but oftentimes, big slide sellers on eBay sell secondhand material purchased from estate sales. The provenance is almost always lost unless the original photographer stamped their name on the slide.

I don't purchase slides for their subject, I purchase for their historical record. I have plenty of poorly-shot or blurry slides because I don't like to break up a set. If a seller has a group of slides obviously from the same roll or taken on the same day, I try to buy them all when I can. I feel bad about breaking up a set or only picking the good ones. Even if you don't know the original photographer, you can build a story by viewing the slides in order. It's like re-living a railfan trip 50 years after it happened.

However, my collection focuses on a very niche subject. My biggest fear with sharing slides online isn't copyright issues, but building interest in my subject. If I promote it too much and generate too much interest, I get competition from other bidders online making it harder for me to complete my collection. I don't mention it online very often, but my collection is probably world-class. I know of only one or two other people who have similar-sized slide collections of the same subject, and they were the ones taking the pictures in the first place. Outside that generation of original photographers, I'm probably the most knowledgeable person alive in my subject.

Eventually I'd like to write a book to compile a 'complete history,' but I'm constantly walking a fine line between awareness (so that people share their stories and documents with me) and secrecy (to reduce competition).

[cera2254]

What is the subject? Why hoard the information so others can’t enjoy it? Isn’t the point of photography (in many ways, not all) to help others and share your passion? I’m glad that people are willing to post their photos for me to use to model and enjoy. I totally get wanting compensation for the work of digitizing or for another person using photos for profit.

[Baikal]

Apr 5, 2024 5:39:06 GMT -8 cera2254 said:

What is the subject? Why hoard the information so others can’t enjoy it? Isn’t the point of photography (in many ways, not all) to help others and share your passion? I’m glad that people are willing to post their photos for me to use to model and enjoy. I totally get wanting compensation for the work of digitizing or for another person using photos for profit.

People hoard information, including photos, because it's the American way.  "Knowlege is power", and people want power over others.  No more complicated than that.  "If I can't have it, no one can" is the motto of the US foreign policy.

[Mr. Trainiac]

Apr 5, 2024 5:39:06 GMT -8 cera2254 said:

What is the subject? Why hoard the information so others can’t enjoy it? Isn’t the point of photography (in many ways, not all) to help others and share your passion? I’m glad that people are willing to post their photos for me to use to model and enjoy. I totally get wanting compensation for the work of digitizing or for another person using photos for profit.

I am the de facto historian of the Illini Railroad Club at the University of Illinois, so that's what most of my collection entails. In the 1950's and 60's the club was pretty active in the railfan excursion community, especially on the CB&Q (RIP 5632) and the Illinois Terminal.

One of the difficulties of running a university club is the revolving membership. Students are constantly joining and graduating, so it's difficult to maintain continuity and keep club culture consistent. Back in the club's heyday, it was ran by local travel agent Maury Klebolt. His connections to the industry turned the club into a railfan powerhouse in the Midwest. However, once he left, the club basically collapsed immediately. We have stayed alive the last 50 years as a model railroad club, but over the course of many 'spring cleanings' and various moves to different UIUC facilities, a lot of the documentation related to club history has been lost.

I've taken it upon myself to restore the collection and research the history of the club. My collection includes not only slides, but also club documents, newsletters, advertising flyers, and other memorabilia. I'm sure many of the club alumni from the 'excursion era' still have lots of their original slides, but outside of them, I probably have the most complete collection of club history and operations. Most club members are happy to simply play with trains, and a few former members have taken a passing interest in club history, but I'm the first in a long time who has actually started a concerted and organized effort to do real research.

Back to the point about 'hoarding' material. I keep this project on the down-low because I compete with other slide collectors on eBay. Since the IRC organized a lot of steam excursions and other rare events, those slides are relatively valuable and uncommon subjects. My biggest fear is that I advertise too much and attract the attention of other prolific slide collectors. Obviously there are guys out there with deep pockets, and the more auctions I lose, the more history disappears into the binders and slide decks of anonymous collectors. My goal is to return these slides and documents back to their original owner (the Illini Railroad Club), so the bigger I make my collection, the more historical material future generations of students will have access to.

[loco8107]

Mr Trainiac- Interesting story- you have very good reasons for doing things the way you do. I can’t help to think that most people don’t tho. Am I wrong?

[sd80mac]

This is why I watermark every picture I take and post.