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Post by ambluco on Aug 27, 2013 5:49:43 GMT -8
I just wanted to clear up some misunderstandings about PayPal and pre-orders. I've seen people posting various assumptions on this topic in the forums I'm in. I think one of the last ones was about Spring Mills and the B&O caboose and accepting PayPal for payment on a caboose not coming out until the end of the year.
I pre-ordered an item in the spring that was due within a few weeks of my order. I never received anything and the item was not released (and is still not released). I know things can be late but as I've attempted to contact the individual, I've had no response - email, land line, cell phone - nothing. At this point, I want my money back.
I'm past PayPal's 45 day window but I talked to them anyway. I was told that yes I had no recourse through them but I asked about paying for pre-order items mainly because people here always say it's not allowed.
Well, it is allowed via PayPal. If you are buying a non-auction item and paying with PayPal it's considered other goods and services and there is no limitation on pre-ordering or how long before they must deliver the goods. So in theory, they could take longer than the 45 days and then you are out the recourse through PayPal if you want to get your money back. If you paid via credit card through PP then you could go through your credit card company but they have time limits also.
This makes it more worthwhile use your CC through PayPal rather than a bank account deduction.
Anyway, I just wanted to offer some insight I received from PayPal today because I know that pre-ordering and paying with PayPal is becoming more common in the model railroad hobby.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 27, 2013 7:16:03 GMT -8
Anybody paying in advance for a model train announcement should consider their money gone.
Just like loaning money to a friend.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 27, 2013 7:22:04 GMT -8
ambluco,
Thanks for looking into this. I know previous discussions started off with conspiracy theory about blatant fraud...hardly likely, given the wide distribution of advertising by a company with a known track record of delivery.
Now, when that delivery will be is always an open question in model railroading. Delays are common, but there is little to no evidence to tie them to a deposit system anymore than any other means of doing business. Despite the boundless anxieties about this a few have expressed, it's good to have this option and to leave it up to the consumer to decide whether they want to buy under these circumstances or not. Yes, do your due diligence, but let's stop short of smearing the reps of folks who don't deserve it over one's personal paranoia about pre-orders.
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Post by ambluco on Aug 27, 2013 8:27:42 GMT -8
My item was not an model railroad item and when it's a MR item mostly I will pre-order when it's a reservation only. I will admit reserving the Spring Mills caboose via PayPal and expect my money to be safe, meaning I will get the caboose when it comes out. That being said, people pay money forward for lots of things, like cable and phone, and most insurance. If I were to look at every model railroad item I've purchased, if I had paid in advance for the item (before it came to market on announcement only) I would not have lost a penny to date. Every item from locos to cars to decals to parts has come out that I have wanted. Late many times but it came out. So I disagree that if you pre-paid for a MR item you could consider the money gone. ambluco, Thanks for looking into this. I know previous discussions started off with conspiracy theory about blatant fraud...hardly likely, given the wide distribution of advertising by a company with a known track record of delivery. Now, when that delivery will be is always an open question in model railroading. Delays are common, but there is little to no evidence to tie them to a deposit system anymore than any other means of doing business. Despite the boundless anxieties about this a few have expressed, it's good to have this option and to leave it up to the consumer to decide whether they want to buy under these circumstances or not. Yes, do your due diligence, but let's stop short of smearing the reps of folks who don't deserve it over one's personal paranoia about pre-orders. |
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Post by ambluco on Aug 27, 2013 9:27:20 GMT -8
That's not the point of this thread. The point is it's not against PayPal rules, as some have stated. Anybody paying in advance for a model train announcement should consider their money gone. Just like loaning money to a friend. |
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Post by atsfan on Aug 28, 2013 16:32:45 GMT -8
My point is not that the product has no chance of showing up.
I am saying one should write off their money mentally if you pre pay.
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Post by curtmc on Aug 30, 2013 18:16:20 GMT -8
The original poster of this thread misunderstood the original point...
Actually it is not against PayPal's rules to pay for something in advance - and lemmings are free to do it... But they won't have any fraud coverage through PayPal once 45 days have passed, or their credit card company once 60 days have passed. So anybody paying by PayPal for something that will not be delivered within the next 60 days is taking a risk - and has no recourse through PayPal or their credit card company if the item is not delivered.
However it is in the fine print of the PayPal payment acceptance agreement (or was a year ago) that merchants using PayPal for payment (under merchandise payment) must have the item and ship within 20 days of accepting payment. It was in the section of what sellers (payment acceptors) must not do... (Fail to ship within 20 days of accepting payment)
Got it now?
And before somebody chimes in about any company being honest and wouldn't cheat their customers or go out of business rapidly... Did you hear about Canadian Model Trains and all the folks who lost their deposits on brass units and the special run CN cabooses? Can't happen again? I wouldn't bet on it...
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Post by atsfan on Aug 30, 2013 18:53:04 GMT -8
The original poster of this thread misunderstood the original point... Actually it is not against PayPal's rules to pay for something in advance - and lemmings are free to do it... But they won't have any fraud coverage through PayPal once 45 days have passed, or their credit card company once 60 days have passed. So anybody paying by PayPal for something that will not be delivered within the next 60 days is taking a risk - and has no recourse through PayPal or their credit card company if the item is not delivered. However it is in the fine print of the PayPal payment acceptance agreement (or was a year ago) that merchants using PayPal for payment (under merchandise payment) must have the item and ship within 20 days of accepting payment. It was in the section of what sellers (payment acceptors) must not do... (Fail to ship within 20 days of accepting payment) Got it now? And before somebody chimes in about any company being honest and wouldn't cheat their customers or go out of business rapidly... Did you hear about Canadian Model Trains and all the folks who lost their deposits on brass units and the special run CN cabooses? Can't happen again? I wouldn't bet on it... History is full of companies that go under and take the money with them. I would like to know of one that went out gracefully and let everyone know they were failing and people should get their money back before it is too late. |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 31, 2013 2:39:51 GMT -8
The original poster of this thread misunderstood the original point... SNIP Got it now? And before somebody chimes in about any company being honest and wouldn't cheat their customers or go out of business rapidly... Did you hear about Canadian Model Trains and all the folks who lost their deposits on brass units and the special run CN cabooses? Can't happen again? I wouldn't bet on it... Curt, That is such appallingly bad logic, you may have missed your calling to be a politician. Dial 911 if you think a crime's been committed. Otherwise, maybe your point was just to preemptively smear folks based on what you think someone else might do to someone other than you at some point in the future? Because I know that cars have killed people in the past, so we should maybe plan to ban all cars? I think you may have picked the wrong hobby if we're to take your assertion seriously that the vendors in it are all crooks. You may wish to switch to a more honest endeavor, instead of hanging out with all the model railroading gangbangers and wannabees that hang around these disreputable and crime-ridden forums. You could get charged with conspiracy for just hanging with the likes of us. |
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Post by atsfan on Aug 31, 2013 6:38:42 GMT -8
The original poster of this thread misunderstood the original point... SNIP Got it now? And before somebody chimes in about any company being honest and wouldn't cheat their customers or go out of business rapidly... Did you hear about Canadian Model Trains and all the folks who lost their deposits on brass units and the special run CN cabooses? Can't happen again? I wouldn't bet on it... Curt, That is such appallingly bad logic, you may have missed your calling to be a politician. Dial 911 if you think a crime's been committed. Otherwise, maybe your point was just to preemptively smear folks based on what you think someone else might do to someone other than you at some point in the future? Because I know that cars have killed people in the past, so we should maybe plan to ban all cars? I think you may have picked the wrong hobby if we're to take your assertion seriously that the vendors in it are all crooks. You may wish to switch to a more honest endeavor, instead of hanging out with all the model railroading gangbangers and wannabees that hang around these disreputable and crime-ridden forums. You could get charged with conspiracy for just hanging with the likes of us. Speaking of appallingly bad logic....... He didnt say all companies. He didnt say they were crooks. He didnt say ANY of the things your wrote. The simple fact is if you put down money on a pre order train product you take your chances. Simple as that. Pay pal wont save your money. Neither will a credit card. This thread and you claim otherwise, which is false. |
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Post by curtmc on Aug 31, 2013 8:16:46 GMT -8
mlehman, it is pretty clear that you don't understand the point I'm making... or think it is meant to "smear" someone (It is not in case you can't tell).
I never called anybody a crook and my posting was not directed toward one or two or three particular companies - that's why I used the word "any". I certainly did not use the word "all" or imply that "all" are "crooks". My point is that "any" small business can have a sudden and significant turn of events that leave them without money to pay their creditors. Deaths, floods, storms, lawsuits, divorces... all can wipe away the assets of any small business.
I don't care who the business is, if they are asking for full payment up front for items that cannot be delivered in the next 30 days then I'm not going to be loaning them money (buying from them) and I frankly think that anybody who does is being risky with their money.
I did a lot of business in the 1990s with Canadian Model Trains. I trusted them. I was lucky I didn't get burned in their demise. I thought about getting several of those CN cabooses, but something seemed odd about them asking for significant deposits. That to me hinted that they had a cash flow issue and couldn't front the project themselves.
But I learned early on not to trust model railroad businesses with my money. At the age of 16 - a point in time I was mowing yards for about $3 an hour - I lost over $200 in "store credit" (from returned defective merchandise) when a mailorder and train show hobby business in North Carolina went belly up. They were very nice people that I had met in person and bought many Bev-Bel cars from. Then poof, they were gone... bankrupt... and poof there went a lot of hard earned money.
Never again...
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Post by bnsffan on Aug 31, 2013 15:11:57 GMT -8
Curt,
Maybe this phrase "- and lemmings are free to do it..." turned some of us off. You could just provide your information without passing judgment on anyone. Every now and then you do provide something of interest.
Respectfully,
BNSF Fan
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Post by curtmc on Aug 31, 2013 18:33:16 GMT -8
Let me explain the lemmings line... Lemmings are those who do something without thinking, just following the herd, and without getting any advice.
Go into any financial planner and ask him if you should pay somebody several hundred dollars 6 or more months in advance with no credit card or other protection should something go wrong. Don't be surprised when they tell you that no financially responsible person would do that.
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Post by bnsffan on Aug 31, 2013 19:47:20 GMT -8
Your explanation makes your lemmings statement just that more of an insult. Have you ever been diagnosed as having Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD)? A person with BPD believes there are only two ways to do anything, their way or the wrong way.
Respectfully,
BNSF Fan
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Post by atsfan on Sept 1, 2013 6:17:52 GMT -8
Curt you have been returning "defective" items since your teen years ?
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Post by jamesbrodie67281 on Sept 1, 2013 12:21:57 GMT -8
Sirs,
I'm too much of a Yorkshireman with a Scotch name to pay up front for summat that's not yet available. The Czs by Atlas well the firm I am using to build the fleet up take advance orders on faith plus the debit card info but don't do any cashing up until the goodies have been despatched. I am happy with that procedure. Unfortunately the postage rates from America to England have gone sky high so my chance of building up a fleet of the NYC boxcars in the turquoise colour are at a standstill unless there might be a few cars available from the same source, this shares the costs out a bit. The last boxcar I bought on E bay the postage was one and a half times the price of the car.I have a few undecs so will paint them NYC and look for decals to match. Q would stock cars have been painted the same colour can anyone guide me please?? also cabooses ?
Sunday 21-17hrs......James Brodie.
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Post by curtmc on Sept 2, 2013 11:46:01 GMT -8
Curt you have been returning "defective" items since your teen years ? Atsfan, if you had just paid over $200 (in pre-1980 dollars) for items and they shipped DOA locos and the wrong freight cars, would you have kept them, or sent them back and had them get replacements and ship the right items? I suppose you would have just kept them... I doubt if you were even around at that time to realize that manufacturers had DOA stuff and merchants made mistakes back then too. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 2, 2013 12:17:16 GMT -8
It seems this topic has deteriorated somewhat, and has thus run it's course. The main point of this thread was to inform consumers that it is allowable to prepay through Paypal, however, if the product is scheduled for delivery beyond the 45 days allotted to recovering funds, than the buyer is on his or her own regarding recovering any funds paid. The information has been presented, and whether or not a person feels comfortable with this policy, or this way of conducting business, is their option.
Secondly, and goes out to everyone, please read and re-read your reply before you hit the "create post" button. Think about how it may sound to the intended reader. It's been getting "hot" here in the forum lately, and it's not just the weather!
Donnell
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