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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 13:47:12 GMT -8
SP's last order for GP9's were for phase III units with factory low noses. They were delivered in August and September 1959 and were some of the last GP9's built by EMD for a U.S. road. GP20 production would begin in November 1959 and GP18 December 1959.
The SP began their GP9 rebuilding program in 1970 and ended it in 1979. Most high and low nose GP9's were rebuilt in to GP9E/R's. Some of the units that were not rebuilt were reclassified as "switchers" and received numbers 2876-2883 and 2888-2896. Eight other non-rebuilt units were SSW 3648, SP 3663, 3703, 3708, 3709, 3712, 3715, 3727.
I've chosen one of the GP9's that didn't get rebuilt, number 3709
The model is a Proto 2000 GP18 from the brown box era. It only took me two and a half hours to disassemble it! It was so glued together, I thought a direct hit from a howitzer wouldn't break the joints!
These early Proto GP18's had a flat area molded into the cab roof for the over sized sunshades. I glued a piece of Evergreen strip styrene in the "gully" and will shape it to the cab roof contours.
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 16, 2013 15:12:31 GMT -8
Usually I find soaking a P2K shell in 99% isopropyl alcohol (or, 91% if you can't find 99% south of the border) weakens the glue joints enough for them to come loose. It's especially important around the cab-hood area where the door frames could easily break while trying to free the cab from the hoods.
Of course, that will strip any factory-applied paint, in this case the grey paint on the undecs (which may not necessarily be a bad thing).
The nose looks like it's going to be a PITA though: you'll have to mill or cut a notch in the weight in order to put the SP nose lights in.
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Post by calzephyr on Oct 17, 2013 5:22:30 GMT -8
Jim
This is an interesting unit and I believe it might have been one of the first delivered in gray and red. The change over for the new paint scheme was in 59.
08.59 to 09.59 25631-25650 GP9 SP 5872-5891 20 each
Larry
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wsor
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The Route of the Ruptured Duck
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Post by wsor on Oct 17, 2013 11:09:25 GMT -8
Are you planning to do anything with the dynamic grilles? The P2K GP18 shell was a bit off in that area.
I will be watching with interest. I like early Geeps, not sure why.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2013 20:17:41 GMT -8
Are you planning to do anything with the dynamic grilles? The P2K GP18 shell was a bit off in that area. I will be watching with interest. I like early Geeps, not sure why. I have a Proto GP20 shell for parts that may yield its dynamic brake grilles for the SP GP9. |
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Post by tracktime on Oct 17, 2013 22:03:52 GMT -8
For the radiator intake grilles, Detail Associates and Train Station Products produced plug-in replacement GP9 grilles for the LL GP18. You might want to search for a set if you don't have a set already. This looks like a fun project!
Cheers,
Harry
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 17, 2013 23:58:26 GMT -8
I have a Proto GP20 shell for parts that may yield its dynamic brake grilles for the SP GP9. IIRC the GP20 hatch is removable, so another option is to cut the old P2K GP18 hatch area out of the shell and substitute the GP20 hatch. For the radiator intake grilles, Detail Associates and Train Station Products produced plug-in replacement GP9 grilles for the LL GP18. You might want to search for a set if you don't have a set already. This looks like a fun project! Cheers, Harry The Train Station Products grills are now sold under Smokey Valley's line, I've used a few in the past and have a set sitting in front of me: product #138 (P2K GP18 -> GP9 grills). Not super-duper etched fine scale or anything, but nicely molded plastic and a pretty good replacement. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 6:43:34 GMT -8
I have a Proto GP20 shell for parts that may yield its dynamic brake grilles for the SP GP9. IIRC the GP20 hatch is removable, so another option is to cut the old P2K GP18 hatch area out of the shell and substitute the GP20 hatch. For the radiator intake grilles, Detail Associates and Train Station Products produced plug-in replacement GP9 grilles for the LL GP18. You might want to search for a set if you don't have a set already. This looks like a fun project! Cheers, Harry The Train Station Products grills are now sold under Smokey Valley's line, I've used a few in the past and have a set sitting in front of me: product #138 (P2K GP18 -> GP9 grills). Not super-duper etched fine scale or anything, but nicely molded plastic and a pretty good replacement. I'll be using Plano Models GP7/9/18 radiator shutters and Plano GP9 grilles. The radiator shutters are etched brass and the grilles are etched stainless. Superior products to the Detail Associates and Train Station Products parts. I'll need to fill in some of the hole left by junking the movable Proto shutters and grille assembly. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 6:28:24 GMT -8
I have a Proto GP20 shell for parts that may yield its dynamic brake grilles for the SP GP9. IIRC the GP20 hatch is removable, so another option is to cut the old P2K GP18 hatch area out of the shell and substitute the GP20 hatch. I just pulled the hatch off the Proto GP20 shell. It appears it will fit....film at eleven! |
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Post by princessofthecape on Oct 20, 2013 12:46:26 GMT -8
I'm not a huge fan of a GP9 with a GP20's sloping nose, but that's just me.
Out of curiosity, would not the easier path to this project be to try to back-alter one of those new Intermountain GP10s? I have no idea how they are as far as runners, but the shell seems like a strong starting point.
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Post by GP40P-2 on Oct 20, 2013 13:32:24 GMT -8
I'm not a huge fan of a GP9 with a GP20's sloping nose, but that's just me. Out of curiosity, would not the easier path to this project be to try to back-alter one of those new Intermountain GP10s? I have no idea how they are as far as runners, but the shell seems like a strong starting point. The Intermountain is a whole different animal; it represents a rebuilt, chop-nosed unit, where what Jim is trying to build represents a low nose that was built by EMD that way... thus the "GP20 sloping nose." He is taking the best route available to a factory built low nose GP9. Besides, the Intermountain isn't even available yet, and with IM's track record on locomotives so far, I am not holding my breath that it would necessarily be usable for anything. The other Jim |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2013 14:24:06 GMT -8
Besides, the Intermountain isn't even available yet, and with IM's track record on locomotives so far, I am not holding my breath that it would necessarily be usable for anything. The other Jim I think Intermountain announced the Paducah GP10 and the Tampa GP16 to throw Athearn off the trail. Personally, I believe Athearn would have produced a very good rebuild. But I'm with the "other Jim" when I say, you don't know what to expect out of Intermountain. Just about everything they've done in HO scale locomotives, other than the GEVO, has left many, myself included, with a bad taste. Mostly, how could they have made the mistake or why did they do what they did? The F's, U18B, SD40-2W all have flaws, some of which just shouldn't happen. Like having handrails that are too short and don't go in the peg holes on the step wells, handrails that are so brittle they break by just touching them and over-sized cab windows. The cherry on the top of the Intermountain shame cake are the two production runs of the SP AC-12 cab-forward. To date, those models have to some of the most expensive paperweights ever manufactured. |
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Post by princessofthecape on Oct 20, 2013 16:38:38 GMT -8
It's a shame. I love love love the GP10 rebuilds -- they're such interesting looking and sounding switchers. Maybe one day if I have the money, and the shell isn't too bad, I'll buy one of the Intermountain ones and put it onto an Athearn mechanism.
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Post by nscaler711 on Oct 20, 2013 21:22:19 GMT -8
There is a GP10 (technically an AT&SF GP7u) that runs around my town it wouldn't be so hard to recreate if the cab didn't look like a CF7 or spartan cab mixed into one... I kinda hope somebody does a Spartan cab version www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=50762It would be cool to replicate and I wish I had that talent. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 20, 2013 23:38:51 GMT -8
It's a shame. I love love love the GP10 rebuilds -- they're such interesting looking and sounding switchers. Maybe one day if I have the money, and the shell isn't too bad, I'll buy one of the Intermountain ones and put it onto an Athearn mechanism. If the mechanism/chassis is like most other Intermountain units (decent), you won't need to. As for using an IMRC GP10 for a low-nose SP GP9: the GP9/18/20 as-built low nose differs quite a bit from the ICG's chop-nose jobs for the GP8 and GP10. This brings up an important point: unlike most SD40-2's and GP38-2's, one RR's low-nose GP7 or GP9 isn't the same as anothers': most of those early Geeps were built as high-nose units and chopped by the railroads in their own shops to allow for better visibility. Therefore a chopped WM GP9 differs from an ICG GP10 chop, differs from a CP GP9 chop, differs from an ATSF GP7 chop, differs from a stock EMD early low-nose (which very few GP9's had). Thus, any model manufacturer coming out with a chop-nose GP9 (Re: Athearn hubbub and rumours thread) would have to come out with one or each RR's specific version, or the stock EMD low-nose that few RR's purchased units with. The best thing about the P2K early Geep shell tooling (and an example is Jim's fine SP GP9 start) is it's very modular: You can for example use the plastic shell frame of a GP9, the cab and nose from a GP20, the long hood from a GP18 and the drive of a GP7 with little trouble together. Bringing other manufacturers' body parts into the mix may not work so smoothly. There is a GP10 (technically an AT&SF GP7u) that runs around my town it wouldn't be so hard to recreate if the cab didn't look like a CF7 or spartan cab mixed into one... I kinda hope somebody does a Spartan cab version www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=50762It would be cool to replicate and I wish I had that talent. I don't think ATSF called their units GP10's. In fact, any GP7 or GP9 is not considered a GP8 or GP10 just because it is rebuilt or has a low nose: those were designations by ICG given to specific units rebuilt by them at their Paducah shops under a formal rebuild program. Other RR's may have had their own designations (GP7u, GP9R, GP9RM, GP16, etc) or none at all. I believe Railflyer was working with another company in bringing those ATSF Topeka cabs out. With the uncertainty surrounding them, I wouldn't hold my breath though. |
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Post by nscaler711 on Oct 21, 2013 2:50:25 GMT -8
It's a shame. I love love love the GP10 rebuilds -- they're such interesting looking and sounding switchers. Maybe one day if I have the money, and the shell isn't too bad, I'll buy one of the Intermountain ones and put it onto an Athearn mechanism. If the mechanism/chassis is like most other Intermountain units (decent), you won't need to. As for using an IMRC GP10 for a low-nose SP GP9: the GP9/18/20 as-built low nose differs quite a bit from the ICG's chop-nose jobs for the GP8 and GP10. This brings up an important point: unlike most SD40-2's and GP38-2's, one RR's low-nose GP7 or GP9 isn't the same as anothers': most of those early Geeps were built as high-nose units and chopped by the railroads in their own shops to allow for better visibility. Therefore a chopped WM GP9 differs from an ICG GP10 chop, differs from a CP GP9 chop, differs from an ATSF GP7 chop, differs from a stock EMD early low-nose (which very few GP9's had). Thus, any model manufacturer coming out with a chop-nose GP9 (Re: Athearn hubbub and rumours thread) would have to come out with one or each RR's specific version, or the stock EMD low-nose that few RR's purchased units with. The best thing about the P2K early Geep shell tooling (and an example is Jim's fine SP GP9 start) is it's very modular: You can for example use the plastic shell frame of a GP9, the cab and nose from a GP20, the long hood from a GP18 and the drive of a GP7 with little trouble together. Bringing other manufacturers' body parts into the mix may not work so smoothly. There is a GP10 (technically an AT&SF GP7u) that runs around my town it wouldn't be so hard to recreate if the cab didn't look like a CF7 or spartan cab mixed into one... I kinda hope somebody does a Spartan cab version www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoPicture.aspx?id=50762It would be cool to replicate and I wish I had that talent. I don't think ATSF called their units GP10's. In fact, any GP7 or GP9 is not considered a GP8 or GP10 just because it is rebuilt or has a low nose: those were designations by ICG given to specific units rebuilt by them at their Paducah shops under a formal rebuild program. Other RR's may have had their own designations (GP7u, GP9R, GP9RM, GP16, etc) or none at all. I believe Railflyer was working with another company in bringing those ATSF Topeka cabs out. With the uncertainty surrounding them, I wouldn't hold my breath though. I know the AT&SF didn't call them GP10's that is why I said "technically an AT&SF GP7u"... that locomotive was at one point in time an AT&SF unit. the Colt Ry. calls it a GP10 or "Big Blue" in this ones case. anyways i wasnt trying to steal the thread i just thought this locomotice was semi relevant since it is a rebuild Cant wait to see the finished project! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 6:00:59 GMT -8
If the mechanism/chassis is like most other Intermountain units (decent), you won't need to. As for using an IMRC GP10 for a low-nose SP GP9: the GP9/18/20 as-built low nose differs quite a bit from the ICG's chop-nose jobs for the GP8 and GP10. This brings up an important point: unlike most SD40-2's and GP38-2's, one RR's low-nose GP7 or GP9 isn't the same as anothers': most of those early Geeps were built as high-nose units and chopped by the railroads in their own shops to allow for better visibility. Therefore a chopped WM GP9 differs from an ICG GP10 chop, differs from a CP GP9 chop, differs from an ATSF GP7 chop, differs from a stock EMD early low-nose (which very few GP9's had). Thus, any model manufacturer coming out with a chop-nose GP9 (Re: Athearn hubbub and rumours thread) would have to come out with one or each RR's specific version, or the stock EMD low-nose that few RR's purchased units with. The best thing about the P2K early Geep shell tooling (and an example is Jim's fine SP GP9 start) is it's very modular: You can for example use the plastic shell frame of a GP9, the cab and nose from a GP20, the long hood from a GP18 and the drive of a GP7 with little trouble together. Bringing other manufacturers' body parts into the mix may not work so smoothly. I don't think ATSF called their units GP10's. In fact, any GP7 or GP9 is not considered a GP8 or GP10 just because it is rebuilt or has a low nose: those were designations by ICG given to specific units rebuilt by them at their Paducah shops under a formal rebuild program. Other RR's may have had their own designations (GP7u, GP9R, GP9RM, GP16, etc) or none at all. I believe Railflyer was working with another company in bringing those ATSF Topeka cabs out. With the uncertainty surrounding them, I wouldn't hold my breath though. I know the AT&SF didn't call them GP10's that is why I said "technically an AT&SF GP7u"... that locomotive was at one point in time an AT&SF unit. the Colt Ry. calls it a GP10 or "Big Blue" in this ones case. anyways i wasnt trying to steal the thread i just thought this locomotice was semi relevant since it is a rebuild Cant wait to see the finished project! The Southern Pacific low nose GP9's are NOT rebuilds. They were built by EMD in 1958 with low noses. Beginning in the 1970's SP began a rebuild program of its large lot of GP9's and SD7's and 9's. SP NEVER chop nosed a unit in rebuilding. All high nose units kept their original nose and the low nose GP9's kept their factory low noses. The rebuilding for SP was generally all internal. Some units got paper air filter boxes, some didn't, SD9's got an extension off of the cab onto the long hood. The SD9's were notorious for water leaking in between the cab and the long hood which ended up in the electrical cabinet. Not good. So SP basically extended the cab radius by adding sheet metal on top of the long hood. This solved the water in the electrical cabinet. SP rebuilds are either classed as R's or E's, like SD9E, SD7R, GP9E, GP9R and sometimes the only visual thing that gives a rebuilt GP9 away from as built are changes to the SP light package. |
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Post by nscaler711 on Oct 21, 2013 9:35:06 GMT -8
Sorry, you posted that already! I wasn't paying attention.
Still looks like a good project so I will shut up now.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 6:19:03 GMT -8
I have roughed in the dynamic brake hatch from a Proto GP20 on the low nose GP9. Before I can cement and finish the new dynamic hatch, I want to strip the factory Santa Fe blue.
I will need to add Detail Associates exhaust stacks.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 11:36:10 GMT -8
The paint is stripped from the replacement dynamic hatch. I think it looks a lot better.
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scaro
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Post by scaro on Nov 13, 2013 18:31:14 GMT -8
hi
i suppose this might be a reasonable place to ask ... is there any kind of definitive list of which RRs rebuilt GP7, GP9 or SD7-9s units with EMDs low nose 'kits'?
i know that the RI did two units, the 1275 and 1321, SOO did at least one GP7 or 9 and i believe i've seen shots of MP GP7s with the EMD sloped nose ( i know they had masses of low nosed GP18s, but this was a GP7).
were there any others?
regards, benjamin
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Post by shoofly on Nov 14, 2013 13:44:08 GMT -8
For the radiator intake grilles, Detail Associates and Train Station Products produced plug-in replacement GP9 grilles for the LL GP18. You might want to search for a set if you don't have a set already. This looks like a fun project! Cheers, Harry Harry, doesn't Plano make GP9 replacement grills now too? Chris |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2013 15:28:31 GMT -8
For the radiator intake grilles, Detail Associates and Train Station Products produced plug-in replacement GP9 grilles for the LL GP18. You might want to search for a set if you don't have a set already. This looks like a fun project! Cheers, Harry Harry, doesn't Plano make GP9 replacement grills now too? Chris They do and that is what I am using on this build. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2014 21:48:24 GMT -8
As other things get completed I did some more on the SP low nose GP9
The brown box Proto GP18 had a trough cast into the roof for the sunshade. I took some styrene strip stock and glued it into that chasm. I then filed, sanded and puttied the seams. I also installed the Plano radiator shutters.
I'm plugging the holes on the shell which were for lift rings. The GP9 actually has only two lift rings per radiator hatch, but P2K and others seem to think you need four. I also added the exhaust stacks.
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Post by onequiknova on Feb 20, 2014 21:53:07 GMT -8
I never knew that about the lift rings.
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wsor
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Post by wsor on Feb 22, 2014 7:29:37 GMT -8
 Two on the fan hatch, a couple on the rear of this body (ex-ATSF GP7U) to lift it off. The water fill for this one is that small cap roughly under the grab iron. Fun times dragging a hose up there. |
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Post by onequiknova on Feb 22, 2014 7:38:38 GMT -8
One thing that really stands out to me in that pic is the way the fan hatch is curved on the edge to follow the radius of the hood corner. The Proto GP has that and I always thought it was to compensate for the too large radius they used. I guess they got that part right.
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bigzmn
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Post by bigzmn on Feb 24, 2014 20:58:42 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 8:49:18 GMT -8
Here is a picture of the stock Proto GP18 low nose. As you can see it doesn't have the notch on the engineer's side and it has steps.
The prototype Southern Pacific low nose GP9's didn't have the perforated style step found on GP7's and 9's. It's nose and steps were like the GP20, with a solid step box.
So I dug into my stash of Proto 2000 body parts and pulled out a GP20 nose. It has the correct notch and is set up for the solid step box. I'll need to construct a step box which shouldn't be too hard. For the safety tread on the scratch built step box, I'll use some Cannon etched plate.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2014 8:33:54 GMT -8
Made a little progress on the SP GP9.
The SP plated over the rear number boards on the GP9's at some time during their careers. Photographic evidence seems to indicate 1970's or maybe even earlier. Maybe when SP removed the rear light package is when the number boards were removed. Can't say for sure. Another feature that is unique to the Southern Pacific is the access hatches below the number boards. I used a cut down Cannon & Co. door and cut a hole in the shell and backed it with some strip styrene so the access door is flush with the end sheet like the prototype.
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