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Post by trebor on Nov 28, 2013 22:00:55 GMT -8
Atlas latest announcement reflects poor judgement on their part. The LV RS3X offered as a LV unit is lame. Atlas has a RS11 shell and a low hood to schmootz on, why not go the 9 yards and do ir right. It seems our old friend is running out of steam. Do they think the premium market will buy half hearted offerings?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 8:08:39 GMT -8
The LV unit is not part of the Atlas Master line but part of the Trainman line. So it isn't exactly a premium model, but at an MSRP of $130, it ain't a blue box Athearn from 1980 either!
Since the Great Recession, Atlas has been extremely low key and guarded with its "new" products. In fact its 95% fresh paint on existing tooling versus Athearn who's rolling out newly tooled models at a blistering pace. Even Bowser who for years was the old fuddie duddie of manufacturers clanking away with their steam locomotive kits and warmed up ex-Stewart models, is blazing new and unknown territory with its ALCO C430 and C636.
Atlas also seems to continue to have problems keeping its line of track products in stock and available. As my dealer said LAST YEAR about Atlas track, I can't sell it if I can't get it.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 29, 2013 9:38:51 GMT -8
On the plus side (for me), Atlas has what should be an awfully nice re-do of their Alco switcher coming out. I've got GN 1 on order, and hope they do them in SP&S someday. Soonish.
Ed
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Post by santafe49 on Nov 29, 2013 10:42:12 GMT -8
I think maybe the Chinese factory problems have been a major cause for Atlas problems. No basic track and rolling stock leads to a shortage of cash flow.
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Post by Brakie on Nov 30, 2013 4:07:09 GMT -8
I think maybe the Chinese factory problems have been a major cause for Atlas problems. No basic track and rolling stock leads to a shortage of cash flow. Especially the low end Trainman items that helps the cash flow.. Athearn/Genesis sales seems to be very slow-already seen $99.00 blowouts. Maybe the high price bubble has sprung a link and the average modeler has voted with his wallet? |
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Post by catt on Nov 30, 2013 4:59:47 GMT -8
I'm definately voting with my wallet.Their prices have reached a point that I can no longer justify spending the money for their product.By the same token I am no longer buying new Athearn either.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Nov 30, 2013 10:52:11 GMT -8
Atlas Engines including the Trainman line run so very nicely too. I am a huge fan of their drives and the QSI sound engines. I just wish they would step up their game and offer more Dash 8-40CW and I know MTH is doing the Dash 9 but Atlas would have been a great model too! I WANT to be able to buy more Atlas engines!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 12:40:07 GMT -8
Maybe the high price bubble has sprung a link and the average modeler has voted with his wallet? I wouldn't be blowing taps yet on the hobby and prices. Some of the sluggishness I believe is still fueled by the Great Recession. Many people have learned that pulling in the horns on spending and actually saving money, just in case, is a really good idea! Secondly, there are many that are still un/under employed or have not gotten back wages lost in return for still having a job. If people continue to say no to new toys or at least in reduced numbers, then I'd go start warming up the bugler. |
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Post by Brakie on Nov 30, 2013 12:55:48 GMT -8
Maybe the high price bubble has sprung a link and the average modeler has voted with his wallet? I wouldn't be blowing taps yet on the hobby and prices. Some of the sluggishness I believe is still fueled by the Great Recession. Many people have learned that pulling in the horns on spending and actually saving money, just in case, is a really good idea! Secondly, there are many that are still un/under employed or have not gotten back wages lost in return for still having a job. If people continue to say no to new toys or at least in reduced numbers, then I'd go start warming up the bugler. Jim,All I am saying maybe the price bubble has indeed sprung a leak-nothing about needing taps for the hobby. Take a closer look at the higher end models still in stock. I don't think the "Great Recession" has anything to do with it at all. As I said several times on the old Atlas forum sooner or later the price bubble will start leaking or burst. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 13:00:27 GMT -8
I wouldn't be blowing taps yet on the hobby and prices. Some of the sluggishness I believe is still fueled by the Great Recession. Many people have learned that pulling in the horns on spending and actually saving money, just in case, is a really good idea! Secondly, there are many that are still un/under employed or have not gotten back wages lost in return for still having a job. If people continue to say no to new toys or at least in reduced numbers, then I'd go start warming up the bugler. Jim,All I am saying maybe the price bubble has indeed sprung a leak-nothing about needing taps for the hobby. Take a closer look at the higher end models still in stock. I don't think the "Great Recession" has anything to do with it at all. As I said several times on the old Atlas forum sooner or later the price bubble will start leaking or burst. I agree, there is a price where people do start thinking long and hard about that purchase. Once the hobby hits that point and I don't know if we are there or not, it will be Katie bar the door as far as the fall out. |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 30, 2013 13:41:35 GMT -8
I think maybe the Chinese factory problems have been a major cause for Atlas problems. No basic track and rolling stock leads to a shortage of cash flow. Judging how other companies are getting back up to speed like Athearn, ExactRail, even Walthers, Atlas seems to be really struggling to get back on their feet. Well, it depends on your poison. I'm watching some pricy stuff flying off the shelves these days. As much as I don't like higher prices, I can still see what is happening. If the poison is right, many are opening their wallets. |
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Post by atsfan on Nov 30, 2013 15:04:16 GMT -8
Jim,All I am saying maybe the price bubble has indeed sprung a leak-nothing about needing taps for the hobby. Take a closer look at the higher end models still in stock. I don't think the "Great Recession" has anything to do with it at all. As I said several times on the old Atlas forum sooner or later the price bubble will start leaking or burst. I agree, there is a price where people do start thinking long and hard about that purchase. Once the hobby hits that point and I don't know if we are there or not, it will be Katie bar the door as far as the fall out. There is absolutely no doubt the hobby is there, now. I don't know one modeler who is not price shopping, or weighing "do I really need this" with purchases now. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 30, 2013 15:47:32 GMT -8
I don't know one modeler who is not price shopping, or weighing "do I really need this" with purchases now. That would also be me. But it's not quite that simple. For me, part of it is indeed that bit of financial negativity of several years ago. And its remnants. But also, there's been SO MUCH stuff put out. And much of it of very high quality. Or a reasonable, to me, equivalent. I'm sorta running out of stuff to buy. And a place to keep it. Fer example, Athearn is currently producing some 53' trailers. I've got a few on order, but not a lot. Part of that is that they're pretty expensive. And part of it is that I bought 53' trailers previously and am pretty stocked up. Ed |
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Post by Brakie on Nov 30, 2013 17:23:47 GMT -8
But also, there's been SO MUCH stuff put out. And much of it of very high quality.
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And that's the fly in the butter milk so many nice things to choose.
However..
For me it's: should I buy 1 Genesis GP38-2 or 2 P2K GP38-2s?
$25.00 supped up MDC boxcar or two $9.95 MDC kit?
Now,I won't give the dollar amount of my monthly hobby budget but, suffice it to say I can easily afford the supped up cars and locomotives at street.
Was I younger I would go with less is best and buy the higher quality cars and engines.
At my age and health do I need to buy anything?
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Post by atsfan on Dec 1, 2013 7:16:43 GMT -8
Yes. Most modelers are stocked up.
And the supply of new modelers who "need" to stock up is small.
Prices are going through the clouds.
So the market is responding.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 7:32:33 GMT -8
But also, there's been SO MUCH stuff put out. And much of it of very high quality. Or a reasonable, to me, equivalent. I'm sorta running out of stuff to buy. And a place to keep it. Ed There is so much new models and just paint schemes, that people are picking and choosing what they want and how much. In the 1980's when Athearn rolled out the GP38-2 it was the first new model since the SD40-2 in the early part of the decade. When both the SD40-2 and GP38/40-2 hit the shelves of the hobby shops people MADE the trip to the shop JUST TO SEE THE NEW MODEL. Now, Athearn rolls out newly tooled models like Chevy's off an assembly line. New models today are common place and expected! In 1985, or whenever the GP38-2 was released, modelers were giddy with excitement for we DIDN'T EXPECT NEW TOYS FOUR TIMES A YEAR. New models today are a lot like Starbucks, there is one on every corner. Starbucks found the more new stores they opened the existing stores did less and less business. The glut of new models are feeding off each other. In other words we have too much and this limited hobby can only support SO MUCH. If for instance the only new tooled models released this year were the Genesis GP50 and Bowser C430, I'll bet sales for both would be much higher. But, Athearn has announced and released many new products as has the rest of the manufacturers like Bowser and Intermountain. Atlas one of the Mount Rushmore's of HO model manufacturers seems to be crumbling. |
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Post by Brakie on Dec 1, 2013 8:01:25 GMT -8
If for instance the only new tooled models released this year were the Genesis GP50(snip).
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Which I thought was a risky move since there's tons of RTR and BB GP50s floating around.
Some key detail parts and a evening away from the TV or computer and one is good to go.
Of course the same applies to the GP38-2.
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Post by riogrande on Dec 1, 2013 8:16:08 GMT -8
All true Jim, which is why I'd consider this still "golden age" of the hobby, despite the struggles of the past 5 years
The first line in the paragraph on Atlas's main page says this: "For 60 years, Atlas has been a leader in the world of model railroading."
It appears they can no longer claim that phrase - it's past tense now unless they ramp things up and get with the program. It's really kind of sad because most us have considered Atlas to be among the top tier, beating out KATO, Athearn and other makers in the 80's and 90's and until a few years ago. Athearn has stepped up their game big time, even improving their quality (although some have still had significant issues, overall it's better). I do hope Atlas is able to get back up and become a major player again and not just a smaller supplier of freight cars mainly, and the odd engine rerun.
It would seem based on what is selling that there are many who prefer a well detailed "out of the box" GP50 vs. the fiddly part of having to roll your own. For those who have the "mad modeling skillz", those can smile to themselves, save money and end up with a model that looks, more or less, as good. But not all have the skills to add all those little parts and have them look as good. My close up eyesight is much worse now that it was 5-6 years ago so doing that stuff is more of a struggle than a pleasure, so I really appreciate getting models that are detailed out of the box. I have a good number of kits still on the shelf, and I do get them out and build from time to time, so I have stuff to work on when I get a wild hair. Of course getting the detail parts is not as easy as it once was. I have a small collection of detail parts from over the years I can use however, if/when needed.
Cheers, Jim
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Post by Brakie on Dec 1, 2013 9:27:12 GMT -8
those can smile to themselves, save money and end up with a model that looks, more or less, as good. But not all have the skills to add all those little parts and have them look as good.
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True and there are those that best buy the supped up models and I'll leave it at.
Now then I hope that is one skill that's not lost on RTR in the years to come since some RTR engines needs a part here and there-maybe a railroad add on in later years.
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My close up eyesight is much worse now that it was 5-6 years ago so doing that stuff is more of a struggle than a pleasure,
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As is mine but,there are helps such as magnifying visors which works quite well for close up work.
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Of course getting the detail parts is not as easy as it once was. I have a small collection of detail parts from over the years I can use however, if/when needed.
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A lot of detail parts I use comes from Atlas since they are cheaper then DW or DA parts.I also pick up some detail stuff at train shows.
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which is why I'd consider this still "golden age" of the hobby
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I think every decade been golden..The 60s has to be the top decade as far as the start of what we have today--thanks to the highly detail brass steam engines.
That was the true start of the great question: "if they can detail a steam engine that good why not a plastic diesel?
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Post by trebor on Dec 1, 2013 9:28:53 GMT -8
As luck and a bad hoarder mentality would have it, I have a lot of BB and older Altas Kato and other kit bash/upgrade fodder. I set a BB C&NW GP50 I did about 20 years ago alongside a Genesis unit. While the Genesis is more advanced in many ways, the old BB I did has several advantages. Cost, better handrails by far(Smoky Valley stanchions and .013 wire) and self satisfaction. The old BB 50 has the nose gong and winterization hatch.
My initial blurt about the LV stand in is confirmation in my mind supporting my "senseless" stockpile of projects. I have RS11 and 36's which will do a short hood swap resulting in a LV RS11 and a NKP passenger RS36.
Detailed, painted and tweaked drives on BB scale hood models are good enough for me on my layout theme.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 1, 2013 10:46:54 GMT -8
Atlas one of the Mount Rushmore's of HO model manufacturers seems to be crumbling. Atlas does not make new HO engines any more, just repaints. So unless you really need an older release (and are willing to pay more money for it), you can skip the Atlas section in the train store (if they have one). Atlas also completely lost the bubble on track. Their code 83 was once the owner of the market. Then they move to another supplier and the availability and quality went way down, and the price went way up. Now there is no reason to buy their track (if you can even find it) because Peco is far better and costs the same. As for HO freight cars, can anyone say trash flats? Huh? Other than yet more expensive 50 foot box cars, and overpriced containers what else is there? We won't even mention the quality issues like the warped stack cars that didn't fit standard containers and the junk only scale accubreaks. So to sum, if and when Atlas starts importing new products (new tool) that the market actually wants, and they have no quality problems and are not priced at $$$$$$$$$$$, then yes, parts of Abe's beard will continue to pile up and the foot of the Mountain................ |
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Post by mlehman on Dec 1, 2013 11:55:59 GMT -8
Larry, I assume you're talking generically about the situation being an "economic bubble" and don't intend the formal definition to apply here? Just for reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubbleI'm not economist, but a prominent one is a friend, in fact one of the few who was among those predicting the housing bubble was due to burst several years prior to it actually happening. So such distinctions are important to make for me. What's going on in the MR market is related to factors other than speculation. For this to be a result of an economic bubble, the prices of our already purchased assets would be similarly inflating, but I don't think that's happening, particularly since older equipment often compares unfavorably with current production. In fact, other than product improvements, most recent price increases are directly related to increased costs of production: increased labor costs Higher transportation costs due to energy costs Smaller runs of more diverse items Costs like the last are also driven by modeler demand. You'll see a few hardy souls insisting if BB was good enough for them, it should be good enough for their grandkids. So there's a lot of upward pressure to improve, which mfgs seem to listen to. And that's a good thing, IMO, and I'm not sure we should try to kill that particular goose, as she's laid a lot of golden eggs recently as other have noted. But it's a bad thing in that those who want these improvements seldom pay any attention to the cost of bringing them to us. But they sure pay attention to the retail price and usually insist it could be a lot lower, as if what they want in improvements should have not cost increase. In part, I think it's the Internet effect, where people figure there's always a workaround where they can get something for free or close to it. That works with electrons, but not so well with real-time, 3-D objects. I certainly know the pain of economic decisions about where to put limited hobby dollars on an individual basis. But I think we're fooling ourselves if we believe a lot of things coming to market could be priced substantially lower. Those prices reflect costs that mfgs have little control over. Plus profit and it's profit that drives future product availability and improvements. Of course, we could give that up and ask the mfgs to eat their seed corn and pretty soon we're back to the 70s with little new and exciting happening. That will certainly be the death of the hobby. Except for those of us who still build, as well as buy, our models. Thank goodness I've done plenty of both, so am pretty well fixed even with fading eyes and shaky hands. But if young ones have nothing like that as an experience, they're unlikely to pick it up in the short-term. Many of those who do only RTR will shift away, leaving the hobby overall much smaller, but higher prices do that, too. Mfgs know that, but also have to cover their costs. That's the real problem here and one that the MR market being so small is unlikely to have any effect on macroeconomic factors, whether it lives or dies. |
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Post by Brakie on Dec 1, 2013 12:54:49 GMT -8
Mike,I'm talking about the hobby price bubble not the economic woes we face daily.Not much we can do about that.
When plastic freight cars starts nearing the $50.00 mark average modelers will think twice before shelling out the needed cash that's not speculation.
Manufacturers need to rethink their business plan or be prepared to pay the piper.
Athearn BB has zero to do with this issue since we know BB kits died a slow death from lack of sales.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 13:46:15 GMT -8
When plastic freight cars starts nearing the $50.00 mark average modelers will think twice before shelling out the needed cash that's not speculation. Manufacturers need to rethink their business plan or be prepared to pay the piper. There is not much a manufacturer can do about price. According to Jason Sharon of Rapido, that $50 is mostly tied up in tooling costs and production of the parts. Assembly cost is very minor. So unless you go back to a blue box or Tyco type car that has four pieces, the body, snap on frame and two snap on trucks, which we know will not fly, you are stuck with a $50 freight car. The cost is in tooling and producing the 300 parts it takes to make a Genesis, Rapido, Bowser, etc. locomotive. Even the lowly spartan detailed Atlas Trainman locomotives are in the $140 MSRP range now. A couple of short years ago, discounted, they were well under a Big Headed Ben with shipping! Now the price after a 30% discount is a Benjamin, an Al and an Abe. There are still plenty of people willing to spend the dolla dolla bill for their toys. Just look at this forum where people say all the time how much they are buying with each and every new announcement. The money is still in the market and until there is an actual crash, then all this talk, is like the rest of the "hobby is dying" threads. Just a bunch of old curmudgeons wasting their time on that fancy interweb thingy...... |
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Post by Brakie on Dec 1, 2013 16:12:38 GMT -8
There are still plenty of people willing to spend the dolla dolla bill for their toys. Just look at this forum where people say all the time how much they are buying with each and every new announcement. The money is still in the market and until there is an actual crash, then all this talk, is like the rest of the "hobby is dying" threads. Just a bunch of old curmudgeons wasting their time on that fancy interweb thingy......
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I doubt if the hobby will die just as long as there's steel wheels on steel rails it will be modeled.
Still the forums doesn't speak for all the Joe or jack doe that doesn't do forums but, readily talks about it trackside.
$50-60.00 50' flat cars and $70-80.00 50' boxcars won't get it either no more then a Tyco flat or boxcar will.
The price bubble will burst and great will be the implosion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 16:27:00 GMT -8
Stilll the forums doesn't speak for all the Joe or jack doe that doesn't do forums but, readily talks about it trackside. $50-60.00 50' flat cars and $70-80.00 50' boxcars won't get it either no more then a Tyco flat or boxcar will. The price bubble will burst and great will be the implosion. My LHS which is an HO and N scale trains only store is doing quite well selling $70 autoracks and $250 DCC and sound locomotives. He is still running hundreds of thousands of dollars through his cash register each and every year. Though he did tell me during one of our sit downs that over the last few years the store has not been growing but receding slightly in gross revenues. I'm sure some of this is the result of the Great Recession and its lingering effects. So until the effects of the economic down turn can officially be declared over, we'll wait and see about the growth of the store. I'm sure that at some point the price will be too much for the majority and then it truly will be Katy bar the door as far as crashing. But, until then we will never know what is too much and what is a sell-able price until we actual get to that price. |
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Post by trebor on Dec 1, 2013 16:48:58 GMT -8
Well I didn't start thread with intent of economic flatuance, I wanted to bemoan that a more correct model might be done . I think the mold design flexibility was more what I was bemoaning. I suppose the Atlas RS11 nose is inseparable in their die, making a schnoz switch with the RS36 improbable. I guess I want to encourage more forethought into tooling to allow second thought models to be done even if $$$$$$ is not a consideration. A high nose RS36 and a low nose RS11 should have been on their minds from the get go. Even the Athearn steroid infused RPP SD45 N&W was a decent effort in my jaded eyes.
As for BB being obsolete for new production, many like myself will continue to use our existing ancient stockpile of stuff due to the economic impossibility of replacing say 150+ Athearn 54' P-S hoppers with Intermountain or Exactrail.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 17:03:45 GMT -8
Well I didn't start thread with intent of economic flatuance, I wanted to bemoan that a more correct model might be done . I think the mold design flexibility was more what I was bemoaning. I suppose the Atlas RS11 nose is inseparable in their die, making a schnoz switch with the RS36 improbable. I guess I want to encourage more forethought into tooling to allow second thought models to be done even if $$$$$$ is not a consideration. A high nose RS36 and a low nose RS11 should have been on their minds from the get go. Even the Athearn steroid infused RPP SD45 N&W was a decent effort in my jaded eyes. As for BB being obsolete for new production, many like myself will continue to use our existing ancient stockpile of stuff due to the economic impossibility of replacing say 150+ Athearn 54' P-S hoppers with Intermountain or Exactrail. Unlike Athearn which took into account high, low, snoots of differing lengths and with or without lights and bells, Atlas tooling has not. In the GP38/40 you have a low nose body, which consists of the nose and the long hood and a high nose body, which consists of a high nose and the long hood. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to just tool the model with a nose separate casting from the body? Tooling the long hood twice seems a bit of a waste. Secondly, Atlas left the church's money on the ground big time when it tooled the SD24. They didn't just tool up two different nose/long hoods they DID FOUR!!! You have separate bodies for the high nose with long hood(CB&Q version), high nose with long hood(Southern), low nose with long hood(UP) and finally low nose with long hood(AT&SF). Jiminy Crickets they tooled a long hood FOUR TIMES! AND STILL made a shell which incapable of being adapted to render a UP SD24B! |
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Post by Brakie on Dec 2, 2013 2:37:51 GMT -8
I guess I want to encourage more forethought into tooling to allow second thought models to be done even if $$$$$$ is not a consideration. A high nose RS36 and a low nose RS11 should have been on their minds from the get go.
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Doesn't Atlas produce models according to popular request? If so,maybe there isn't enough request to warrant the tooling costs.
But,keep slugging away since it does work. You see after years of request Atlas finally decided there is money to be made in producing a N Scale Alco S2.After being hounded ExactRail decided to do a N Scale PS waffle boxcar.
My point?
Get enough request and do some hounding and Atlas just may come to the conclusion its a worthwhile project.
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