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Post by WP 257 on Apr 10, 2014 15:41:03 GMT -8
Ok, I'm sincerely interested in your opinions as I have limited funds to spend. (Long story, gave up on doing passenger other than some ACL cars for my son, for a variety of reasons partly including cost). I also already "got my fix" and acquired a few Santa Fe units--but I want to know what you prefer. I have room in this year's budget for only one more diesel (beyond current commitments). I also prefer but am not tied to the 1970's era, when I was still a kid...
Blue and yellow Warbonnet era (1972 through the end):
Let's say you have $150 to $170 plus tax available to spend and are fine shopping anywhere online or otherwise. Which model of the following currently available Santa Fe models would you buy, and why or why not?
A. BLI C30-7
B. Walthers Proto SD-45
C. Walthers Proto GP-60 (BNSF patched versions are still out there, affordably priced, whether one likes BNSF or not)
D. Walthers Proto GP-30
E. Athearn Genesis GP-50
Thank you very much for your opinions and discussion.
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Post by Spikre on Apr 10, 2014 15:56:56 GMT -8
Fast14, not on Your list,but available in that Price Range: Alco DL-600A,Black for the 56 to 62 period,Blue for 62 to 68. Alco DL-600B Alligator, Blue for 1961 to 69 period,Yellow Bonnet for 71 up to 74. U30CG for 68 to 78,chioce of Red,Blue,or Yellow Bonnet,this one may not be in Your Price Range unfortunately. Spikre
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Post by atsfan on Apr 10, 2014 16:11:36 GMT -8
Athearn Genesis GP 50 of those. Walthers units are grossly overpriced.
Actually I would get a Kato SD40-2 if I only could buy one. Not on your list though.
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Post by railfan4life on Apr 10, 2014 17:33:08 GMT -8
Not the most straight forward answer, but I'd say it depends on what type of train you'll be running, and what you already have. You also didn't mention if you're looking for a DCC ready engine or a DCC and sound equipped engine. Though retail for the models you list with sound is above your price range, they can be found in that range if you are patient. If you don't have a C30-7 or SD45 (though I prefer the Athearn RTR SD45 over the Walthers) those are your primary mainline power in the 70s and 80s along with SD40-2s that weren't on your list. If you're running fast freights through the desert you might opt for the 4-axle models GP30/50/60. They could all be the right engine for you--again it all depends.
It also depends on whether you want to showcase what you would regularly see on trains, or what you didn't see as often. Santa Fe owned 157 C30-7s, 90 SD45s, 86 GP30s, 40 GP60s, and only 16 GP50s. However, it's your layout. Run what you want to see operating on your layout.
For me, my least favorite engine of the bunch would be the Walthers SD45. Of the others, I own all of them except the GP50 and are happy with them.
hope this helps.
Cheers,
Kevin
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Post by bnsf971 on Apr 10, 2014 17:42:02 GMT -8
I would probably get the GP50. It is big enough for most duties, and small enough to easily navigate smaller radius curves found on model railroads. I have had the BLI C30-7, and while the model is good, the sound, whether QSI or new updated, honestly is not very good. And all the new ones come with sound. I've had multiple problems with Walthers, so I'd leave them alone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 17:43:41 GMT -8
I think you can get a better deal on the Athearn Genesis versus the others. The photos I've seen of the current crop of Walthers models seems a little for a lot of money. I'm not a big fan of BLI and their Paragon II sound. I have a BLI E8 from the last run and I think its supposed to sound like and EMD 567. It sure ain't no Tsunami and with BLI its either sound/DCC or the highway.
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Post by bnsf971 on Apr 10, 2014 17:48:43 GMT -8
I think you can get a better deal on the Athearn Genesis versus the others. The photos I've seen of the current crop of Walthers models seems a little for a lot of money. I'm not a big fan of BLI and their Paragon II sound. I have a BLI E8 from the last run and I think its supposed to sound like and EMD 567. It sure ain't no Tsunami and with BLI its either sound/DCC or the highway. You said what I implied. I also just looked at one of our favorite etailers, and you can almost get a pair of silent GP50s for the stated budget ($99.99), versus one (maybe) Proto SD45. One of our club members bought three GP60s, and was disappointed by some of the painted on details.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2014 17:59:17 GMT -8
One of our club members bought three GP60s, and was disappointed by some of the painted on details. Walthers did that on the Union Pacific E8's they produced for the City train. The MU door on the nose, battery charging receptacle and water fill on the E8B were all painted on "details". I think it looks like a Marx tin toy from the 1940's and early 50's. At $300 MSRP for a sound equipped model you'd think they'd be all in with detailing. Painted on details are cheap and look cheap and I repeat all this on a $300 MSRP model......
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Post by valenciajim on Apr 10, 2014 18:13:52 GMT -8
I would get the Athearns. I think they are higher quality and a better value. I second the comment about getting a Kato loco if you can find one.
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Post by WP 257 on Apr 10, 2014 19:31:27 GMT -8
Clarification: I prefer DC only but am able to operate DCC/sound engines just fine with the controller I have. So the correct answer would be I prefer DC only and silent...but do buy BLI engines, and I can even get them for $170 with the sound/DCC.
Spikre--Dr. Cinthia Priest in her book, The Santa Fe Diesel, Volume 1, said that the Alligator RSD-15's didn't look very good in blue and yellow warbonnet--but that she thought they looked great in the blue and yellow "bookend" or "pinstripe" scheme. I used to disagree with her, but now can understand her opinion there...The Alligators and the F45's look almost like they were "born" to wear the blue scheme.
I'd buy a GP50 but only if I could find one in person that I liked for the simple reason that my one pusher graciously allowed me to break the seal on several Genesis Santa Fe GP50's, so I know they were brand new, unhandled or mangled by anyone else but me. Every single one had problems--including broken handrails and excessive/sloppy glue--again brand new in the box. It was a shame for me, because after seeing the absolutely gorgeous Southern Pacific Geeps delivered several months before, I was somewhat drooling over the prospect of owning Santa Fe GP50's. No other dealer in my area has them, and for the gas price of driving to where there are some, I could just as easily afford to buy something else...
Surprisingly, I've had very good experiences with a few of the engines that are generally not as well liked.
That's partly why I wanted to see all the comments from you folks and will certainly consider them. So thank you for your comments. Feel free to continue.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Apr 10, 2014 20:06:58 GMT -8
Ok, I'm sincerely interested in your opinions as I have limited funds to spend. (Long story, gave up on doing passenger other than some ACL cars for my son, for a variety of reasons partly including cost). I also already "got my fix" and acquired a few Santa Fe units--but I want to know what you prefer. I have room in this year's budget for only one more diesel (beyond current commitments). I also prefer but am not tied to the 1970's era, when I was still a kid... Blue and yellow Warbonnet era (1972 through the end): Let's say you have $150 to $170 plus tax available to spend and are fine shopping anywhere online or otherwise. Which model of the following currently available Santa Fe models would you buy, and why or why not? A. BLI C30-7 B. Walthers Proto SD-45 C. Walthers Proto GP-60 (BNSF patched versions are still out there, affordably priced, whether one likes BNSF or not) D. Walthers Proto GP-30 E. Athearn Genesis GP-50 Thank you very much for your opinions and discussion. BLalthers SD73M - It was the best locomotive ever made and I highly recommend it. Since my opinion really matters to you.
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Post by railthunder on Apr 10, 2014 20:32:32 GMT -8
My suggestion is different in context and doesn't pick a locomotive from your list. Instead, I looked at your dollar amount that your willing to spend. Lets look even further at your intended modeling purpose i.e. what type of train(s) do you intend to pull with a Santa Fe unit? a manifest, intermodal, or local? Thats what should drive your decision and also how it will fit into your overall railroad theme. It appears by your list you were thinking heavy duty main usage. I'm confident if you crunched numbers you get two (possibly three) really nice Atlas or Kato units off of that auction site that would make an impressive power consist vs. narrowing yourself to choosing one locomotive from your list. A quick look found several SD40s and SD45s that were nicely priced and would run ultra smooth. This strategy has served me well over the years as if you're not careful you'll wind up with a hodge podge that doesn't run well together such as a older Proto SD45(high speed gears) with an Atlas U33C etc. This is especially critical since you're running things with only DC now, but later with a decoder, sound and DCC eventually you'll be glad you stuck with top quality runners. So a rephrased question might be "I'm going to do a mid-70s intermodal train and have $150 to 170 to spend. What would look good and reasonable cost along with performance?" Use this type of focus rather than a poll and you'll find what works and feels right to you.
Happy railroading!
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Post by WP 257 on Apr 10, 2014 21:21:14 GMT -8
Well, older Kato locomotives are always a consideration, but the paint of some was not quite what I'd really want (and I'm not good enough to paint better myself). That's why I did more of a poll based on stuff that is still readily available now, not just on the evil auction site. There are Proto SD45's out there with the helical 14:1 gears, and reasonable--but not everybody likes Walthers.
Besides, I thought a topic like this was a little change of pace from some of the other recent discussions...
Running with a decoder--not a future consideration--after numerous experiences with DCC/sound equipped engines, I prefer plain DC. The ones with sound are generally too slow on the layout for my tastes (even with high end voltage maxed out). The more experience I've had with DCC-equipped engines, the less I like them (and yes, I can program any and all CV's even though I don't have a full blown DCC system, but am only using the MRC Tech 6 Sound Controller 2.0). I just don't like the DCC/sound equipped engines out there in HO--the speakers in them are too darn small to do any good, and I get bored with diesel sounds. Plus the newest ones tend to run just fine in plain DC for me, so I view DCC as a pricey luxury that I don't need. The BLI E units with sound run nicely, but not at passenger train speeds...a little bit disappointing for me.
The five I listed all appear to have pretty good paint jobs (better than some models that came in the past).
I'll never be operating at prototype switching speeds--but at the other end of the spectrum, where freight trains move at TOFC speeds.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 11, 2014 3:45:25 GMT -8
You mentioned the Proto SD45 but not Athearn's RTR SD45. I really like my Athearn SD45's and the ones I have run so far were very smooth and quiet and had some nice RR specific prototypical details, nice paint jobs and at about 2/3rd the cost of a Walthers Proto 2000. I picked up mine at prices ranging from $65-90 depending on source and time frame). Athearn RTR SD45 is an excellent value since cost is an important factor you mentioned.
As for GP60, don't forget hunting down the early LL P2K GP60, those were late era LL made and can be had for almost half of the newest version put out by Walthers; I don't think the Walthers produced GP60 they are that much better - so if you can find those, it may be a good value since you are emphasizing cost and budget!
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Post by alcoc430 on Apr 11, 2014 5:38:47 GMT -8
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Post by mrsocal on Apr 11, 2014 6:38:38 GMT -8
I like the Kato stuff for the chassis and smooth running of the motors. But, I like P2K for the shell detail that they offer. If you have time and ability, look at intergrating these two and make your own loco.
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Post by WP 257 on Apr 11, 2014 8:12:17 GMT -8
Actually, I was all set to buy an Athearn Santa Fe SD45 a couple weeks ago--and would have--but the three of those my local pusher had in stock also all had cosmetic issues.
Am considering the Trainworld blowout GP60, thanks.
Thanks all for the suggestions.
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Post by slowfreight on Apr 12, 2014 5:36:03 GMT -8
I'd have to vote for the yellow/blue warbonnet F45 from Genesis (not the bookend scheme). Always loved 'em, and in fact one of my veryveryvery few impulse purchases in this hobby was a Genesis f45.
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Post by Spikre on Apr 12, 2014 9:48:38 GMT -8
Robert, here the C424s are called RS-37s. the C425s are RS-37As. and the C428s are RS-37Cs. so calling the DL600s RSD-7s is not a stretch,but a Correct Alco Engineering Term. ATSF RSD-7s: maybe BLI hasnt made them yet in Black,but maybe they just havnt got around to it Yet ? ATSF 600-601 possibly kept thier Steam Boilers to be used as "Passenger Protection" power ? this was very common in the 40s,50s,and 60s,but Low Noses on Hood units sort of killed that idea. sure that Monon paid Extra for the 2 S/G equipped C420s they had. as did NKP pay more for the 2 S/G eqipped RS-36s they had. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Apr 12, 2014 11:49:00 GMT -8
Robert, over tiime one needs to use some of the Knowledge they have accumalated since the 50s. MLW listed the 1st C424 as an RS-37,Alco didnt seem to actually use that Designation,but if they did their C424s would have been RS-37s. Alco did use DL-640A for C424s,and DL-640B for C425s. the C420s were sometimes listed as DL-721As,which would/could have been also listed as a RS-32A. the C428 is listed in an Alco Maintanance manual even though exactly 0 were built.seems to be a competitor of the GE U28B, or a "B" Trucked version of the C628 in a C425 body. "Here" is my closet,and the models that are in it. it is sometimes done to make sure that posts are CORRECTLY Quoted, other times because something else to be posted gets sort of forgotten while typing,which is a real chore "Here". and sometimes just for fun. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Apr 12, 2014 11:59:44 GMT -8
Robert, is a DL-430 an S-6 Switcher ? on SP and a few other roads it is. or is the DL-430 the big C430 road loco ? on NYC,PC,CR,Susie Q,M&E,D-L,NY&PA it is a 3000 HP Road loco. so what comes to Your mind when DL-430 is read ? and even EMD has pulled a few of these Model Designation Blunders. which GP40X or SD40X comes to mind when this Designation is seen ? it can be said that after Mr Dilworth retired EMD began thier long slow Decline. Spikre
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Post by WP 257 on Apr 12, 2014 13:46:16 GMT -8
P-)Spikre, Spikre, Spikre-- You are slipping in your old age. I believe you also forgot the Alco C-624, catalogued but never built, promptly replaced in the catalogue by the C-628. Sadly, I do not know the correct DL designation... Also, when passenger trains broke down, as just about anything was apt to do after Amtrak was formed, on the Santa Fe, any diesel--the nearest available--would be called upon to assist. Though I've never seen RSD-15 'gators on a passenger train in a photo, that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I have seen images of all manner of second generation EMD's on the front of Amtrak trains.
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wsor
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The Route of the Ruptured Duck
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Post by wsor on Apr 12, 2014 22:11:08 GMT -8
I would go for the older run LL GP60s. I have a pair of UP ones. Run good, lots of weight, and I feel the body is very nice. One time I had my pair out, and coupled an Atlas GP39-2 in the middle. Ran them around for a good half hour, then realized I had taken the decoder out of the GP39-2, and was dragging it around. You have to add some of the details, but then you can make sure it is done right. DC out of the box, DCC easy enough to install as long as you do something with the number board lights.
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Post by slowfreight on Apr 13, 2014 3:37:58 GMT -8
I would go for the older run LL GP60s. I have a pair of UP ones. Run good, lots of weight, and I feel the body is very nice. One time I had my pair out, and coupled an Atlas GP39-2 in the middle. Ran them around for a good half hour, then realized I had taken the decoder out of the GP39-2, and was dragging it around. Did it have that prototypical flat-wheel "thunk-thunk-thunk" afterward?
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Post by Spikre on Apr 14, 2014 14:43:35 GMT -8
Robert, the "Book" with the RS-37 is in my closet. believe that CP 8300/4200 has been scrapped,would like to be wrong about that. MLW built CP 8300 during April 1963,this was a month before Alco built the EL C424s,and forget which number was completed 1st,but it wasnt 2401.2401 was built near the end of May 1963. so the RS-37 does/did Exist as CP8300/4200. was wrong about this one,ALL 92 Canadian built C424s were considered RS-37/C424s by MLW. RS-11: how does one figure out the wheel arangement or Horse Power of a Unit with that model number ? the RS designation generally meant a B-B trucked unit,but then explain what the MLW RS-13 was ? Fast14, have never forgotten the C624,but was mainly covering some of the B-B Century units. the C624 would have been DL-600C,RSD-39. need to go diving into the Musty Alco files here. Edit- the last use of DL by Alco was the DL702/RSD-38,a 6 axle version of the RS-36,but exactly 0 were built. a note here lists the C425 as an RS-40. then the C628 would have likely been the RSD-41. have seen a drawing once of a C628 looking loco on the DL-600B frame of 66'7", that would be almost 3' shorter than the C628 at 69'6". this unit had the PHS-1 C424 Overhanging Rear Number boards and deck mounted hand rail stantions,the C628 never had the over hanging Number Boards,and had Frame Side mounted Hand rail stantions. Alco had given up on RSD use by the time C628/DL-628 Specs were written up. Spikre
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Post by lvrr325 on Apr 14, 2014 16:01:16 GMT -8
This thread couldn't be more derailed if it was a Penn Central train on a branch line in 1974.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2014 16:08:15 GMT -8
This thread couldn't be more derailed if it was a Penn Central train on a branch line in 1974. This thread went in the weeds a long time ago. Nothing on this last page has ANYTHING to do with the original poster's question. Time to call the moderator for clean up on aisle seven.....
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Post by Spikre on Apr 14, 2014 16:10:51 GMT -8
guess it was all that PC watching at Waverly Yard !! but PC did Re-Rail mostly everything that needed it. CNJ would just let some things sit on the ground for months. Spikre
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Post by atsfan on Apr 14, 2014 21:18:41 GMT -8
This thread couldn't be more derailed if it was a Penn Central train on a branch line in 1974. This thread went in the weeds a long time ago. Nothing on this last page has ANYTHING to do with the original poster's question. Time to call the moderator for clean up on aisle seven..... Why? The conversation is civil and of interest to those posting it? One could simply not read it.
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