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Post by Spikre on Jun 27, 2014 11:11:58 GMT -8
 since Mike brought the Roco Depressed Center Flats into this ongoing research,thought they could use a seperate thread to cover them more thoroughly. Roco Army Flat,about 50' long,based on the 50s cars.they came with a Buckeye 3 Axle truck that seemed close to what the Prototypes used. Roco Depresed Center Flat,this was an earlier car,some said it was based on a PRR car from the teens or early 20s.this model had an early version of Buckeye trucks that used an External Equalizer Bar similar to the Outside Equalizers used on Passenger cars of that era.whether the car is Correct isnt known here,but it is a sort of readily available car for modifying to some close prototype cars of the teens and 20s. the Bachman Depressed car is a very close copy and may have actually used the Roco molds ? any one know. both cars suffer from being designed for Trainset use with Push Pins holding the Trucks on,and truck mounted couplers,which can both be improved. many of the Bachman cars came with a Trailer carrying a Missle,not so prototypical, but maybe a source of parts for other projects ? Spikre 
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Post by upcsx on Jun 27, 2014 13:01:58 GMT -8
I have the Roco 50'straight flat car and on the deck it has four slots can't remember what they were their for and the Bachmann depressed flat with the missle I still have I think two of them.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 27, 2014 13:50:56 GMT -8
The Roco depressed center car doesn't map to any PRR cars I can find in the great big book of PRR flatcars.
The four slots in the straight flat are for holding small bits of injection molded plastic.
Ed
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Post by mlehman on Jun 27, 2014 13:58:28 GMT -8
SNIP Roco Army Flat,about 50' long,based on the 50s cars.they came with a Buckeye 3 Axle truck that seemed close to what the Prototypes used. Roco Depresed Center Flat,this was an earlier car,some said it was based on a PRR car from the teens or early 20s.this model had an early version of Buckeye trucks that used an External Equalizer Bar similar to the Outside Equalizers used on Passenger cars of that era.whether the car is Correct isnt known here,but it is a sort of readily available car for modifying to some close prototype cars of the teens and 20s. Spikre, My depressed-center flat is numbered for UP 54210. It is a Roco "made in Austria" model. Got the box somewhere, IIRC. The six-wheel trucks on it have a bar that seems to connect the spring packs between the axles. I think that may be what you are saying is an external equalizr. the Bachman Depressed car is a very close copy and may have actually used the Roco molds ? any one know. SNIP Yeah, I was struck at how close the B-mann flat was when comparing to the Roco. Ssupect there is a connection. I think the connection with the Army flats was that I was at Jack Hawkins old place in Lafayette and one of the things on my list was whether he had any of the Roco Army flats? This was a long time ago (late 80s, early 90s???) I think what happened was he didn't have those but did have this car, so made the sale. I never followed up any more on the Army cars. For the life of me, I couldn't tell you if they were DC flats, too, or were straight deck cars with six-wheel trucks. I have a Walthers troop train that I'd like to have some mil flats for. Thus the Albrae cars, while very attractive, as really too modern for me. I was unable to find any pics of Roco six-wheel trucked straight deck flats on the web, so maybe just a figment of my imagination or did such a creature exist and is just hard to find? |
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Post by upcsx on Jun 27, 2014 14:46:16 GMT -8
The Roco six-wheel straight flat do exist that is the one that I have and in US Army colors.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 27, 2014 16:39:20 GMT -8
I was unable to find any pics of Roco six-wheel trucked straight deck flats on the web, so maybe just a figment of my imagination or did such a creature exist and is just hard to find? AHM brought them in:  Here's more info: www.ho-scaletrains.net/ahmhoscalefreightcars/id38.htmlAt the bottom of the above link, it shows the "funny trucks". They look a bit to me like specialty Pennsy trucks. I THINK they were only under the depressed center car. I THINK the flats had regular Buckeyes. Which most likely should be replaced. And repositioned. Ed |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 27, 2014 18:52:44 GMT -8
Thanks, fellows. At least I know I'm not chasing ghosts. That box and car even look familiar -- too expensive to a 12-year old kid to fit into the budget -- I was trying to do narrowgauge even then with some of the MiniTrains HOe so had to stick to my "prototype" anyway. One of those unmet primordial urges. It's all obvious now.  I'll try to work in a pic or 2 of my DC flat when I get around to SPF this weekend. |
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Post by Spikre on Jun 28, 2014 8:19:42 GMT -8
Mike, if You can,try to find an AHM 1967/68 catolog,good pics and drawings of decorated cars in those pages. looks like the AHM version did have Plastic NEM Large flange wheels.the later cars brought in by Walthers in the late 80s, early 90s did have metal RP25 wheels. think the diamiter was about 30" but not sure about that ? Prototype cars on C&O: were very close to the Army cars,but had different rivit pattern, maybe less Stake Pockets,and a different looking endsill. but am sure a model of the C&O cars can be based on the Roco Army Flat. Spikre
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Post by jbilbrey on Jun 28, 2014 23:03:31 GMT -8
The depressed center flatcars were also likely patterned after another series of US Army flatcars. I have a book dealing with US Armor that has a photo of USA 499510, which probably dates back to the early/mid 1950's [it's carrying a T43 Heavy Tank, later standardized as the M103 Heavy Tank]. The caption states, "A T43 Heavy Tank mounted on its special low bed railway transport car." The trucks in the prototype photo match the Roco trucks down to the external equalizing bar. The gusset pattern under the deck is also close to the Roco model.
James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN
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Post by mlehman on Jun 29, 2014 5:42:10 GMT -8
James, Interesting find on the use of a drop center flat for heavy tanks -- and especially so the close match between that car and the Roco model. I finally got some pics of mine to post for reference, including a close up of the trucks used. Obviously, if it is like this underneath, you know it's a Roco car and not one of the others.  An overall view of the underside after conversion to body-mount couplers.  Side view of UP 54210  A view of the deck  A close-up of the trucks.  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 29, 2014 7:13:47 GMT -8
...a photo of USA 499510... I expect that this is the picture:  And here's a shot of the model:  The car's reporting mark is interesting. In the ORER's of the period that I have (October 1950 and July 1956), there is no "USA". There is "USAX", but there are no numbers in that range. In the 1956 issue, there is no listing for a car with this number for ANY owner in the "special flat car" section. So, I conclude, this car could not have been used in interchange in North America. That would leave it stranded at a US "facility". Or, perhaps, it was used on foreign railroads. The photo itself is kinda interesting, in a funny way. The tank is secured to the flat, but the gun barrel is not stowed. Totally weird, to me. Also, the tank itself seems a bit brighter than the rest of the photo. Perhaps there was a bit of photo-manipulation here. But I certainly agree that the prototype flat and the model look VERY similar. The shop manual for the M103 shows the tank stowed on one of the "regular" AHM/Roco heavy duty Army flats. Ed PS: On the photo authenticity side, I note that the tread on the left end is slightly indented by the blocking. A very curious picture. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2014 11:57:35 GMT -8
The AHM/Roco U.S. Army 50' straight flat decorated for N&W and carrying a Caterpillar scrapper.  Without the Cat.  Made in Austria and Roco identifications on the body.  AHM tag on bottom  Whole view of bottom of the car. True the brake piping and rigging is cast on, but its actually not badly tooled. The slots for the snap on deck does distract from the bottom.  The honking BIG THICK brake wheel and staff  The car's deck with the slots for the devices used to hold down the loads.  The parts that make up the car.  The Buckeye six wheel trucks. They don't look that bad for a 1960's era train set car which cost $0.99!   |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 29, 2014 13:26:02 GMT -8
Jim,
Interesting that it's a different six-wheel truck under the straight deck flat than that is under the DC flat. A good thing to know, as there are very limited choices in six-wheel trucks. And they do look like a Buckeye - or at least more like a N. American prototype truck, while the trucks under the DC flat look vaguely European.
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Post by jbilbrey on Jun 29, 2014 20:06:53 GMT -8
I expect that this is the picture: The car's reporting mark is interesting. In the ORER's of the period that I have (October 1950 and July 1956), there is no "USA". There is "USAX", but there are no numbers in that range. In the 1956 issue, there is no listing for a car with this number for ANY owner in the "special flat car" section. So, I conclude, this car could not have been used in interchange in North America. That would leave it stranded at a US "facility". Or, perhaps, it was used on foreign railroads. The photo itself is kinda interesting, in a funny way. The tank is secured to the flat, but the gun barrel is not stowed. Totally weird, to me. Also, the tank itself seems a bit brighter than the rest of the photo. Perhaps there was a bit of photo-manipulation here. But I certainly agree that the prototype flat and the model look VERY similar. The shop manual for the M103 shows the tank stowed on one of the "regular" AHM/Roco heavy duty Army flats. Ed PS: On the photo authenticity side, I note that the tread on the left end is slightly indented by the blocking. A very curious picture. Ed, thank you for sharing the prototype picture. Yes, that is the same flatcar as in the book that I have. The image online is a bit more clearer than the book's photo. You're also correct in that the barrel is not stowed properly; the turret should have been traversed 180-degrees and the barrel resting on the travel lock on the rear hull. Roco's M103, while basic, would at least be correct in recreating that photo. It does not represent the later re-engine tanks. Also, thanks for looking up the car in your ORER's. I do not have any before the mid-1960's, so I was wondering if the Army found some other use for the car. That is a good point that you brought up in that the reporting marks is not the typical "USAX". James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 30, 2014 7:06:01 GMT -8
Nice new pic of one of those DODX special flats popped up this morning... DODX 39475 |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 2, 2014 11:21:07 GMT -8
Mike, both of the Roco Flats have Buckeye trucks. the version under the Depressed Center Flat is an older version,either with or with out the extra Stabilizer bars. Train Shed had some good photos of Buckeye ads in a 20s truck mostly reprint. so now the question is -- What Year were the Depressed Flats built ? how many were there ? were the Buckeye Trucks New or Re-Conditioned ? did those flats ever run in the U.S.? were the Stabilizer Bars added to reduce Rocking caused by the heavier tanks that are shown in the picture ? AHM Note - at one time the Plastic wheels were used mainly on the Regular Line cars,while the Metal Wheels were used under Deluxe cars,but there seems to be many cross overs,no real rhyme or reason to which were under the particular cars. Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Jul 2, 2014 11:54:12 GMT -8
Spikre, Hmmm, lots of questions and my answers aren't very good today.  I don't even know the answer to what metal wheels are on my DC flatcar. When I saw them, I thought they might be some JayBees, which were my standard issue wheelset before they retired and I ran out of 'em. But I don't think they are those JayBee's were my standard 33" freight ones, maybe some of their passenger wheels??? IIRC, the car came with plastic wheels, which would have been the very forst reason to change them out for something else. These cars may well have been no further than Fort Eustis, Virginia (OK, whatever the Army Trans Corp home base was anyway without resorting to wikipedia) here in the US. When I first saw that bar, I was thinking maybe soemthing to do with "rubbergauge" trucks. The Army did experiment some with that in the 50s, the diesel that operated on the Rio Grande NG was one example. A car like this makes sense, too, but if it's an equalizer bar, I better elave well enough alone. I've been looking at that pic Ed posted of the original packaging complete with load. To me, it looks like one of the old mobile armored artillery guns than a tank. The trackk arrangement and lack of "bonnet" behind the turret suggest that, although I can't see it clearly even if I was seeing good today...  |
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Post by jbilbrey on Jul 3, 2014 0:06:01 GMT -8
I've been looking at that pic Ed posted of the original packaging complete with load. To me, it looks like one of the old mobile armored artillery guns than a tank. The trackk arrangement and lack of "bonnet" behind the turret suggest that, although I can't see it clearly even if I was seeing good today... You would be correct. The flatcar still in the original packaging has a M53/55 Self Propelled Howitzer. The M53 mounted a long 155-mm gun, and the M55 had a shorter 8" caliber howitzer. The model, with its short barrel looks more like the 8" tube. But, only the trials version would have had the muzzle brake at the end of the barrel. The M53/55 chassis was derived from the M47 and M48 series of tanks. The M103 was seen as the Big Brother to the M48 Patton, also sharing some of the automotive components as well as the general shape of the hull. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 3, 2014 6:29:29 GMT -8
We need a good line of HO scale military vehicles.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 3, 2014 6:45:49 GMT -8
I've been looking at that pic Ed posted of the original packaging complete with load. To me, it looks like one of the old mobile armored artillery guns than a tank... You would be correct. The flatcar still in the original packaging has a M53/55 Self Propelled Howitzer. The M53 mounted a long 155-mm gun, and the M55 had a shorter 8" caliber howitzer. The model, with its short barrel looks more like the 8" tube. But, only the trials version would have had the muzzle brake at the end of the barrel. The M53/55 chassis was derived from the M47 and M48 series of tanks. The M103 was seen as the Big Brother to the M48 Patton, also sharing some of the automotive components as well as the general shape of the hull. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN James, Thanks for confirming the load. Makes me wonder if it's a piece of Roco armor or maybe something AHM produced specifically for this purpose? |
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Post by drolsen on Jul 3, 2014 8:09:34 GMT -8
Great... I think you guys have talked me into picking up one of these flats to model a DODX survivor like the ones I photographed in Colorado Springs. I'll edit my detail shots of the one at the Strasburg museum this weekend and get them uploaded. We need a good line of HO scale military vehicles. Herpa took over the Roco line, so they still have lots of high-quality HO vehicles available. Trident also offers lots of excellent models. Dave |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 3, 2014 18:00:43 GMT -8
Great... I think you guys have talked me into picking up one of these flats to model a DODX survivor like the ones I photographed in Colorado Springs. I'll edit my detail shots of the one at the Strasburg museum this weekend and get them uploaded. We need a good line of HO scale military vehicles. Herpa took over the Roco line, so they still have lots of high-quality HO vehicles available. Trident also offers lots of excellent models. Dave Are these painted or just plain green plastic? |
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Post by jbilbrey on Jul 3, 2014 18:43:59 GMT -8
The M53/55 apparently showed up as a separate model. I've seen photos of them on eBay and other sources. I probably wouldn't be hard to cut off the brake if a model railroader wanted one that represented the production variant.
Some of the Herpa/Roco models are painted and others are plain green. To me, their tanks, specifically the tracks, were the weakest part of most Roco tanks. Sorry, I'm a armor modeler as well so details like that matter to me. I even went so far as to paint a "grid" of black rectangles on a gray track band to represent the rectangular track pads on a M1A1 Abrams.
CMK has some nice 1/87 tank kits in resin. Some are more useful than others. I have a M48 Pionerpanzer Bundeswehr [German Army M48 Dozer Tank] that I plan on converting back to a US tank and placing on a Roco heavy-duty flatcar. One of the railroads that I model served a major Army Base, so I want at least one military load.
James Bilbrey
LaVerne, TN
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Post by drolsen on Jul 14, 2014 5:45:42 GMT -8
Here are my photos of the Magor-built 100-ton DODX (originally USAX) flat at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania in Strasburg: DODX 38358: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/rsPicture.aspx?id=251159I've been meaning to edit and upload these for a long time, but just hadn't gotten around to it. I'll get the photos labeled later, but the first half shows the left side (viewed from the B end) and underbody, from A to B end, and then the second half shows the right side, from B to A end. I didn't take many shots of the right side sill itself, because of the chain and posts that were blocking the view. I hope you find these helpful. Dave |
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Post by mlehman on Jul 14, 2014 9:33:11 GMT -8
Dave,
Thanks for the pics, just what this thread needed. The various informational plaques are certainly different than non-USG rolling stock, down to the diagram showing the brake linkages
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Post by mlehman on Aug 30, 2014 12:43:47 GMT -8
While my Roco six-axle flat did OK on the layout, every once in awhile it could find itself adrift and on the ground. It really needs new trucks, which may be in the pipeline with the announced mil flat (CRS, it's earlier in this thread, you doofus...   ), as the Roco ones aren't exactly hi-tech plastic. With a substantial section of hidden track on the backside of the dogbone that makes up the standard gauge track pattern out of staging, I need rather perfect performance. Now, the deck is removable, but oh so brittle. This Cold War-era stuff from Europe can be this way sometimes. Even being careful -- because I had it apart once before and cracked it then -- I still mangled it again...  What was I up to? Adding weight. There is a weight below the drop deck that nowhere close to fills the compartment. Out it came and I cleaned up a couple of injector marks. Seven of the Great Planes lead weights in the standard 1/4oz size ALMOST fit. But the plastic deck -- broken and reglued -- was just a little too thick. So I trashed the center deck, keeping the raised ends and the curving drops that hold the platform, stained some 2x6 lumber to match what was on the deck, shimmed along either side with styrene and glued on a new deck...   The car weighs 90 grams now and tracks well at the head end of consists, where high/wides often go. It was the weight of the train behind it which seemed to push it off the track on downgrades. There is room for more weight, if that is required for some reason. The car is still below NMRA spec, but as long as she tracks well, that's the main thing. |
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Post by Spikre on Sept 2, 2014 13:10:21 GMT -8
Mike, a couple of thoughts to consider with these cars. are all the Insulating Bushings one same side of the trucks ? are all the wheels in guage and centered on the axles ? have You replaced the Push Pins with Screws ? if not consider using 3-48,or 4-40 brass flathead screws. they can be adjusted easily when finishing the car. if there are problems with the wheels replace them with better 30" wheels ,not sure who makes them presently,but recall the wheels being less than 33" on the cars here. if none of the above work then consider placing the trucks. Spikre 
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Post by mlehman on Sept 2, 2014 18:04:16 GMT -8
Spikre,
I'm running 33" Jaybees in them right now. They seem workable enough. Still using the pin, because I don't want to start hacking until I know what form a replacement truck will take. Adding the weight seem to cure the problem staying on track. If I ran it at the end of the train would solve things, but I want the high/wides up front. For now doesn't seem like a need for further work.
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Post by daveowens on Sept 4, 2014 10:45:39 GMT -8
We need a good line of HO scale military vehicles. We do. Herpa/Roco/Minitanks are quite good, as are the Trident military vehicles. I've got 12 of the Roco heavy duty, six-axle flats repainted into DODX with M60A1 loads and one with an M88 load, and have plans to do several more. I've managed to accumulate about 40 of the flats over the past couple years. I test ran the train last night for the first time. The cars still need tie-downs and a brake wheels, but it's getting close. I'll have to take some photos. Dave Owens |
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Post by bar on Sept 4, 2014 18:44:45 GMT -8
I just uncovered a Bachmann missile flat in the local toy store, after reading all this I'll pick it up for routing to Loring AFB on my B&A layout. (I have seen a pic of a unit train of flat deck DODX flats w/tanks headed for Loring.) The bulbous nose armament looks a little like the Honest John mobile launched warhead.   P.S. There is a Russell snowplow parked at Loring, and reportedly an Alco switcher locked away in the enginehouse. |
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), as the Roco ones aren't exactly hi-tech plastic. With a substantial section of hidden track on the backside of the dogbone that makes up the standard gauge track pattern out of staging, I need rather perfect performance. 
