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Post by calzephyr on Jul 13, 2014 17:17:01 GMT -8
This might sink EMD forever since all 2015 new diesel have to be Tier IV certified. Two years with no sales cannot be good for the workers on any assembly line. GE has their unit available. Larry
Thanks to TO and NWRailfan for article,.
Caterpillar behind GE in Locomotive Race
Author: NWRailfan
An interesting article in the Wall Street Journal today states that EMD will not have Tier IV compliant locomotives on the market until 2017 and is falling behind GE.
Pay sight but you might be able to find by using your googler or somewhere else. Enjoy
online.wsj.com/articles/caterpillar-falls-behind-ge-in-locomotives-race-1405291739
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 13, 2014 17:55:54 GMT -8
I've wondered about the government mandating such strict emission controls that locomotives can't be produced at all. What will the railroads do if they can't purchase new ones as old ones fail or are wrecked? GE may have a Tier 4 engine this time around, but what about the next round of emission regulations?
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Post by chessie77 on Jul 13, 2014 19:12:39 GMT -8
Hey, If some other builders think about trying to enter the heavy locomotive business while EMD is unable to build new locomotives, maybe Fairbanks-Morse would be able to up date the Alco 251 engine since it is still in production.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 13, 2014 22:36:06 GMT -8
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 13, 2014 22:59:26 GMT -8
Last month, I got to watch the GE units on Donner Pass testing the new Tier IV units. No information has been printed or release, but they seemed to run and pull much like a regular unit. GE certainly looks to have done their homework on the new units. Of course, they have a lot of money since they paid no Federal taxes on last years income of 7B. No doubt the coal fired plants are coming to an end in our lifetime. One promise that the President made was to bankrupt the coal business if they tried to build any more new plants but he pinned in some very heavy EPA regulations to shut down existing plants. They have to be converted to gas or oil, but remember, no new pipelines can be installed under the present administration. Oil trains are dangerous and cities are now trying to block their passage via certain towns and pipe lines are not permitted. Even some West coast ports do not want coal sent overseas and have tried to use the EPA to block the shipments of coal. Larry |
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 14, 2014 8:56:20 GMT -8
GE may be well positioned to take up the slack with plants in Erie, PA and Fort Worth, TX. I certainly won't complain about production ramping up. Personally, I think GE builds a better product than EMD and has for a long time.
EMD's older products tend to work well in yard and road switcher environments. I don't understand why there hasn't been more emphasis on bringing new versions of these products to the market. Railroads have shown interest in gensets, but frankly most of them are pretty poor quality (the dead line at UP's Centennial Yard includes several gensets). BNSF's NRE gensets are a joke, and a replacement locomotive is already under consideration. The GP20ECO and SD32ECO are a step in the right direction, it's going to take more than a step if EMD is out of the running for US road locomotives for two years.
Larry, I don't think your characterization of the administration's position on the coal industry or pipelines is either fair or accurate. The president has supported clean coal initiatives from the beginning. Whether any of those measures are economical or practical, I'm not qualified to say. However, I am qualified to say your comment about new pipeline construction is absurd. There is a staggering amount of new pipeline construction currently underway in the US. The only pipeline that has had any serious controversy surrounding it is the Keystone XL, which is intended to handle Canadian tar sands oil for export from the US and is in no way intended to bolster domestic (US) oil supplies. Since this pipeline is routed over the Ogallala Aquifer, a catastrophic rupture of the pipeline would cause irreversible damage to the aquifer, which is the main sticking point for farmers, ranchers and environmentalists. The US State Department is involved since this pipeline crosses an international boundary. Otherwise, it's open season for pipeline construction.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 14, 2014 9:44:33 GMT -8
Sooo, exactly how many locomotives is what's left of EMD producing in the last few years?  I couldn't find a reference quickly, but IIRC, it was not a very impressive number. Gotta agree it's hard on the few workers involved, but anyone hiring on at Cat these days knows the kind of employer they are working for. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 14, 2014 10:01:43 GMT -8
 EMD should have developed a 4 Stroke Engine about 20 years ago, oh wait,they did,,,,the 265H ? any way,after that didn't go as planned,only the Chinese and maybe an Aussie Ore Road or 2 stuck with them,the U.S. roads couldn't get rid of thiers fast enuff. seems that TIER 4 will kill 2 Stroke 710s this time around. and most roads don't seem to like any of Cat equivilents,so maybe buying EMD was just a TAX Write Off for CAT ? Spikre 
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Post by alcoc430 on Jul 14, 2014 17:50:23 GMT -8
Sooo, exactly how many locomotives is what's left of EMD producing in the last few years? I couldn't find a reference quickly, but IIRC, it was not a very impressive number. Gotta agree it's hard on the few workers involved, but anyone hiring on at Cat these days knows the kind of employer they are working for. What kind of employer are they? |
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 14, 2014 19:39:22 GMT -8
Sooo, exactly how many locomotives is what's left of EMD producing in the last few years? I couldn't find a reference quickly, but IIRC, it was not a very impressive number. Gotta agree it's hard on the few workers involved, but anyone hiring on at Cat these days knows the kind of employer they are working for. What kind of employer are they? Not exactly "pro labor" to put it mildly. |
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Post by alcoc430 on Jul 14, 2014 20:35:32 GMT -8
OK got it, sort of figured it.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 14, 2014 23:23:41 GMT -8
"Labor-hostile" is probably pretty accurate. I'm still wondering about the graph showing EMD deliveries in recent years. Usually that's something loco companies crow about. It's rather discouraging, first Alco (OK, I'm not the only old fart here  )and now EMD  GE is OK, just doesn't get my interest in most cases and the modern menu they're known for is pretty much after my era. It was sad when EMD was sold off, but maybe bankruptcy would've been better. The New EMD is a shadow of the old one. |
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 15, 2014 5:42:34 GMT -8
GE may be well positioned to take up the slack with plants in Erie, PA and Fort Worth, TX. I certainly won't complain about production ramping up. Personally, I think GE builds a better product than EMD and has for a long time. EMD's older products tend to work well in yard and road switcher environments. I don't understand why there hasn't been more emphasis on bringing new versions of these products to the market. Railroads have shown interest in gensets, but frankly most of them are pretty poor quality (the dead line at UP's Centennial Yard includes several gensets). BNSF's NRE gensets are a joke, and a replacement locomotive is already under consideration. The GP20ECO and SD32ECO are a step in the right direction, it's going to take more than a step if EMD is out of the running for US road locomotives for two years. Larry, I don't think your characterization of the administration's position on the coal industry or pipelines is either fair or accurate. The president has supported clean coal initiatives from the beginning. Whether any of those measures are economical or practical, I'm not qualified to say. However, I am qualified to say your comment about new pipeline construction is absurd. There is a staggering amount of new pipeline construction currently underway in the US. The only pipeline that has had any serious controversy surrounding it is the Keystone XL, which is intended to handle Canadian tar sands oil for export from the US and is in no way intended to bolster domestic (US) oil supplies. Since this pipeline is routed over the Ogallala Aquifer, a catastrophic rupture of the pipeline would cause irreversible damage to the aquifer, which is the main sticking point for farmers, ranchers and environmentalists. The US State Department is involved since this pipeline crosses an international boundary. Otherwise, it's open season for pipeline construction. GE has added a new facility for building locomotives in Texas and will be able to furnish the railroads with diesels. Most of EMD sales have been less than 20% of the market in recent years, but having two vendors for locomotives probably keeps prices in line. My thoughts on how the present administration's position on the coal is only my impression and could be totally incorrect. The pipeline comment was over the top, but the route was changed to avoid the Aquifer and it is still being blocked. It would have created jobs which we certainly need no matter what the final destination of the oil. Larry |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 23, 2014 15:39:44 GMT -8
A friend told me a eastern utility company bought a load of coal from RUSSIA because it was cheaper to have it shipped overseas than rail find that hard to believe.
It also angers me that you and i pay taxes and company's like GE don't? Must leave a lot of capital lying around to do whatever they want.
EMD falling behind GE. Hasn't than been happening since the late 1980's?
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Post by emd16645 on Jul 23, 2014 16:00:14 GMT -8
A friend told me a eastern utility company bought a load of coal from RUSSIA because it was cheaper to have it shipped overseas than rail find that hard to believe. The plant you are referring to is the PSNH generating station in Portsmouth, NH. This plant does not receive coal by rail. I believe in the past they have received coal by barge that had been transloaded from a train, but in living in the area for the past 5 years I've never seen or heard of rail deliveries. (Note: this plant is not to be confused with the PSNH Bow plant, which does receive coal via rail) |
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I couldn't find a reference quickly, but IIRC, it was not a very impressive number. Gotta agree it's hard on the few workers involved, but anyone hiring on at Cat these days knows the kind of employer they are working for.
)and now EMD 
