DCC/sound MFG where are we heading

[steveturner]

You know guys with the influx of German European Loksound ESU sound and dcc on models produced by our North American model MFGs I feel kind of bad for the USA companies who have been dumped. I am sure those are not contracts one would like to lose. The USA sound and dcc companies have strived to bring us some great product. Sure we have choice but the fact that Losound boards are 21 pin that limits us to decoder choice and apparently tobe on the safe side it was suggested to me if its a loksound esu board use their decoders. No expert or DCC guru but if you purchase a loksound dcc/ sound loco that's one thing but if its just got the 21 pin plug for DCC are we not limiting ourselves to decoder selection.................I guess you can rip out and hardwire but really! Its been pointed out to me loksound and North American boards are not completely compatable, if I am incorrect please correct me.Point in question are lighting applications. I have a few DCC units on order with Loksound or should we say esu boards.............recommended decoders loksound/esu. That limits me decoder wise being 21 pin. Now I am not up on the 21 pin to 8 pin adaptors?. The other issue with this scenario with adaptor is they probably take room up, where we all know room is scarce in todays locos. Many locos only have enough height for a decoder once pluged in to top of board. If you order Loksound sound locos that's fair enough if you just want DCC ready then I think we are being short changed. Of course everything I have said is redundant if Loksound is totally NMRA compliant! Maybe some discussion to point out what I am missing here.Thanks Steve

[canrailfan]

Hi Steve,

The ESU Loksound Select decoders are available with the standard 8 pin 'NMRA' plug, as well as with the new 21 pin connector. If you have a DCC-ready model with the usual 8 pin socket, you can use a Loksound or any other decoder of your choice.

The NA model manufacturers are choosing the LS Select decoders with the 21 pin connectors for a number of reasons.

First is that the LS Select decoder sounds are programmable/loadable. This means that the delivery time from ESU to model manufacturer 'X' is faster and minimum order quantities are lower. Deliveries to X's factory can be more closely timed to when the models are actually being assembled, X doesn't have to order decoders way in advance and have the capital tied up until the models are produced. IF there is some problem with the sound file that doesn't come to light until the last minute, assembled models don't have to be taken apart to fix the problem. They can be re-loaded very easily.

A second reason is that the LS Select decoders have demonstrated excellent low speed control and this is something that modelers have been demanding. There have been difficulties with getting Soundtraxx Tsunamis to operate smoothly at low speeds, especially with Digitrax systems. Model manufacturer's support staff have heard about this and spent considerable time helping customers achieve acceptable results. (Why doesn't Soundtraxx spend more time with their client manufacturers to find the best settings for each model produced with an OEM Tsunami decoder, knowing that a significant number of the models will end up on a layout using a Digitrax system?)

The 21 pin connector is going to become the de facto standard because it handles all the auxiliary decoder connections such as extra function outputs and the speaker. Today, every decoder that uses the 8 pin connector requires the installer to solder on wires for the additional functions and often not in a very convenient way. With models now having lit number boards, class lights, cab lights and one or more speakers, a motherboard in the model using the 21 pin connector makes a lot of sense.

Hopefully, companies like Digitrax and Soundtraxx will recognize the need for new decoders with 21 pin connectors. The model manufacturers have and at the moment the LS decoders are the most readily available.

David

[Mark R.]

Ok - Before everyone gets the torches lit ....

ESU decoders using the 21 pin plug are NOT a proprietary set-up by no means. The first four functions (F0F, F0R, F1 and F2) are "line level" meaning they put out full voltage (just like any other decoder). The additional two functions are "logic level" requiring either an onboard TTL logic for the output, or an off-board module (ESU makes them) to do the conversion. The recommendation for using ESU products is more for their superior motor control and wanting to maintain consistency. Loksound have running features that work in unison with their sound that other decoders don't have. The LokPilot has these features, so pairs perfectly with the LokSound decoder.

SO - the TCS decoders will work just fine on the first four functions for sure.

As for feeling bad for the US companies for being dumped ? Really ? What would you expect if you don't keep up / improve / offer competitive pricing to the manufacturers ?

Mark.

[thebessemerkid]

I'm slowly adding dcc/sound equipped locos, but really waiting for a good sound unit under 50 bucks to consider fleet retrofitting. Some of the good engine sounds are marred by bad horns. Not sure on patents, but an open source unit with downloadable sound files seems to be a logical end. Maybe it exists already?

[Mark R.]

You won't ever see open source downloadable files. Each company has people that are paid to travel to all corners of the country to do these recordings. They make their return by selling their decoders to which these sounds are installed.

That being said, there are a few sources overseas that make custom files for ESU decoders, but again, they charge for these files and they are locked so they can't be copied and re-distributed. There's a LOT of work that goes into each file, nobody is going to give it away for free. That's also why each sound company uses proprietary formats.

Mark.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

And while the prices of nearly everything else in the electronic world keep trending down in geometric proportions it seems the ~$100 price point for sound decoders is artificially high.

[bdhicks]

TCS will be coming out with their diesel WOW decoder sometime soon. They stopped by for a demo at my club after they visited the local hobby shop, and it was pretty impressive.

Checking the TCS website just now, I see they've also started offering 21-pin sound decoders for their steam stuff, as well as some replacement boards to plug the 21-pin decoders into.

[antoniofp45]

I'm glad that the team at ESU LokSound has not been sitting still and continues working aggressively to update and improve their sound decoders. I enjoyed hearing the sounds from the LokSound v4.0, especially the nicely improved EMD 645 E3 (turbo) sound scheme and the "long requested" louder horns! The air let-offs are the best I've heard from any sound decoder manufacturer. The "cold start" and "warm start" schemes are nice features as well.

Competition is always good for the market and hopefully Soundtraxx, QSI, Digitraxx, and the manufacturers will be showing us improved offerings as well in the near future.

[carrman]

I'll pass on Lok-Sound and changing to a 21 pin plug. I've seen nothing from them to impress me.



Dave

[nightmare0331]

I love me some ESU and TCS decoders...I've worked with both manufacturers for a few years.

Thousands of both installed with very few problems and very high quality.

Your mileage may vary.

Kelley.

[antoniofp45]

Interestingly, I've been reading a number of very positive reviews regarding the specially customized ESU sound decoder for the Rapdio HO GMD-1.

I'm aware that we are subjected to audio limitations when listening to sound equipped units on YouTube clips. However, imho, the sound from the unit on the YouTube clip below is excellent! Since it is an EMD 567C I'm strongly considering buying a pair of these decoders for two HO GP-9s in my fleet that I will be upgrading.

To hear the sound scheme, go to time index 1:32:



About 4 years ago a good friend of mine (a DCC guru) told me that he had personally spoken with one of ESU's owners who stated to him that ESU was committed to improving the quality and quantity of their North American locomotive sound offerings. I was slightly skeptical because of ESU's strong focus on their European lines as well as Soundtraxx's and QSI's offerings in the American market. I'm very glad to see that the ESU rep's statements were not vaporware!

[Deleted]

Biggest complaint I have about sound is THE SOUND ITSELF.

Even with the best speakers, the sound coming out of the model still sounds like a cheap Japanese transistor radio from the 1960's. Everything has too much treble and not enough bass. It is still not anywhere near the effect you get when standing track side.

I tire of sound quickly. A few toots of the horn and ding of the bell and I'm done with those effects. One of my pet peeves with railroad video's is the CONSTANT HORN BLOWING AND BELL RINGING. Please make it stop after the first five minutes.

Maybe I'm one those people that like silence when running models. We do exist in this hobby. For those that like sound, more power to you. But, I still think the effect is far from the prototype experience. 

[antoniofp45]

Hello Jim,

I'm in your age group and am with you to a certain point.

I think that just for demo purposes on YouTube, the sound should be "cranked up". However, on a home or club layout sound can become very annoying when set to "loud" levels (like listening to a radio with the "Treble" knob turned up 75%.

I find sound equipped locomotives to be pleasant and relaxing WHEN the volume is set at a level where I can barely hear an idling prime mover from a distance of 5 feet and that when the horn is blown, it's not nerve-tingling annoying.

This harkens back to my rail fanning jaunts during my teen years where I'd go to an SCL yard to watch switching maneuvers (yes, trespassing with permission!). I noticed that I could not hear locomotives idling if they were more than about an 1/8 mile distant and when throttling up to notch 2 or 3, the sound was still subdued. This was before the days of "Quiet Fans", Noise Suppression Mandates, and "Tier 1".

Sound should complement the model railroad, not overwhelm it. At a low volume level, the limitation of bass response is not as apparent.

[grabbem88]

Sound is not for everybody heck most of us have lost substantial amount of hearing that its pointless either from age or prior service (diesel/tanker mechanic)..

I can still tell what's what and 90% of my sound installs have came out dead on.. You can buy the most expensive speaker and still not be impressed because you can't just stick in the shell fire it up and say its crap.. Location location location and if you are a tsunami user cranking the EQ up is retarded... I got a rs1 with one zimo speaker and how I have it placed and set it growls just like the real thing..and most of time I just it idle while I'm doing a project as my music..

Esu and TCS actually recoded there stuff and no matter how well it was recorded they still have to filter it and downsize to the point some of the good bass we complain about was lost but never mind the scale size we are comparing it too right?

I saw a rip on esu please explain? What exactly does esu don't do for you???

We all have our opinions of what does it for you and what is crap but ill be the first to admit I'm still learning and fubar ing sound projects on a daily basis lol.

[WP 257]

Oct 5, 2014 6:30:33 GMT -8 @babalooey said:

Biggest complaint I have about sound is THE SOUND ITSELF.

Even with the best speakers, the sound coming out of the model still sounds like a cheap Japanese transistor radio from the 1960's. Everything has too much treble and not enough bass. It is still not anywhere near the effect you get when standing track side.

I tire of sound quickly. A few toots of the horn and ding of the bell and I'm done with those effects. One of my pet peeves with railroad video's is the CONSTANT HORN BLOWING AND BELL RINGING. Please make it stop after the first five minutes.

Maybe I'm one those people that like silence when running models. We do exist in this hobby. For those that like sound, more power to you. But, I still think the effect is far from the prototype experience. 

I must agree completely with everything Jim is saying here.

Respectfully, I would like to add that my other "hobby" is music, and my musician friends who are really into trains (yes, they exist) cannot tolerate the sound of HO models--for all the reasons stated above--and basically because in HO the speakers are way, way too small to even begin to do the sound justice. (They do find O-scale engines with sound to be more acceptable).

I've tried numerous sound equipped locos from nearly all HO manufacturers, and I must say that I prefer the silence and gear noise of the non-sound versions (though MTH's steam power seemed to be the most satisfying at the time, but with the talking turned off).

My real age, if it matters at all in this discussion, is 46.

Disclaimer: I've never done my own sound install, but would just as likely skip it rather than risk damaging some of the more delicate plastic diesels.

[rockisland652]

Actually, I am also a musician, yet I like sound engines.

The real problems are improper installations lacking speaker enclosures, poor mix, and general volumes being way too loud.

My advice is cut the volume. It sounds better. These are tiny speakers and they don't sound good loud.

Also, factory mixes have the bell too loud. You need a balanced sound and the tiny speakers blast the bell right into your auditory nerve. The horn should be the loudest thing in the mix, and go from there.

Speakers without enclosures are like nails on a chalkboard. No power. No life to them.

Fix the three things above and sound becomes your friend.

[ChessieFan1978]

Sound gets annoying after a while, especially at clubs. I have a few sound equipped locomotives but it's just not worth the added cost to me.

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2014 7:16:26 GMT -8 grabbem88 said:

Sound is not for everybody heck most of us have lost substantial amount of hearing that its pointless either from age or prior service (diesel/tanker mechanic)..

I can still tell what's what and 90% of my sound installs have came out dead on.. You can buy the most expensive speaker and still not be impressed because you can't just stick in the shell fire it up and say its crap.. Location location location and if you are a tsunami user cranking the EQ up is retarded... I got a rs1 with one zimo speaker and how I have it placed and set it growls just like the real thing..and most of time I just it idle while I'm doing a project as my music..

Esu and TCS actually recoded there stuff and no matter how well it was recorded they still have to filter it and downsize to the point some of the good bass we complain about was lost but never mind the scale size we are comparing it too right?

I saw a rip on esu please explain? What exactly does esu don't do for you???

We all have our opinions of what does it for you and what is crap but ill be the first to admit I'm still learning and fubar ing sound projects on a daily basis lol.

This is your opinion concerning ESU and your RS-1. To someone else, they may disagree on either or both. That is their opinion.

We spend a tremendous amount of time on this and other forums and lists debating our own personal opinions on various products. Sound is something that is very personal. Personally, I don't believe there is any right answer. What is good for me is bad for you and vice-verse.

What is true is across the board is this and other forums and lists sees the vast majority of its posts by people sharing their opinion. The trouble is when opinions clash, each side tries to shout down the other side. I've yet, see anyone win an internet argument.

In the end, what we all should try to remember is opinions are like behind holes.....we all have one.

[grabbem88]

That is why I said sound is not for everybody for really whatever reason.

My esu question is just it...a question no harm to ask questions

Internet war??? Where?

I get quoted is this war? Man I'm confused

Dissect my post which is my opinion as been pointed out.. But fact is sound quality is personal as you said ... Just like jazz to rap it's personal some like it some dont.

Messed up part is the "whole" entire topic at hand as it was asked "what direction are we heading with sound and
98% of these posts are "well I don't like sound I rather have quite" wtf are we posting other than to nag complain and b**ch?

What also kills me is we dissect a manufactures new product and a fuel tank is 3 scale inches too high or whatever..

Ok so if we use the rule of if it can be heard 5 ft away in 1:1 scale its too loud then how far is that to 1:87 scale ??

I'm not trying to fight with anybody but we can't justify our opinions if we not going to be fair and listen to others..

[Mark R.]

Anyone try hooking a sound decoder to an 8 inch full range speaker in an enclosure ? You would no doubt be impressed with the sounds and frequency that ARE there ! Trouble is, we can't squish that 8 inch speaker into our engines.

Dealing within our limitations, there are numerous improvements that CAN be done to vastly improve the sound. The weakest link is the use of a plastic enclosure that's too small. On average, most all enclosures should be twice the size for the speakers that are used with them. You will get much better response using a slightly smaller speaker in the same size enclosure.

Oval or rectangular speakers are not very efficient in that the tension is not even across the cone surface - there's considerably less flex on the sides in comparison to the ends. Two round 16mm will sound better than a single 16mm X 35mm speaker in the same enclosure (at least from MY experience).

As for the enclosure itself, how many of you who are complaining about the sound actually made any attempt to improve upon it ? A wood enclosure dramatically improves the lower frequencies compared to a plastic enclosure. What do you think your home stereo speakers would sound like installed in a plastic tote box ? Installing a thin layer of fiber-fill in the enclosure also adds to the richness as it "fools" the speaker into thinking the enclosure is actually bigger than it really is.

I constantly read on the forums people complaining about the sound quality, but very few of them making any attempt to improve on it.

Mark.

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2014 11:44:29 GMT -8 grabbem88 said:

That is why I said sound is not for everybody for really whatever reason.

My esu question is just it...a question no harm to ask questions

Internet war??? Where?

I get quoted is this war? Man I'm confused

Dissect my post which is my opinion as been pointed out.. But fact is sound quality is personal as you said ... Just like jazz to rap it's personal some like it some dont.

Messed up part is the "whole" entire topic at hand as it was asked "what direction are we heading with sound and
98% of these posts are "well I don't like sound I rather have quite" wtf are we posting other than to nag complain and b**ch?

What also kills me is we dissect a manufactures new product and a fuel tank is 3 scale inches too high or whatever..

Ok so if we use the rule of if it can be heard 5 ft away in 1:1 scale its too loud then how far is that to 1:87 scale ??

I'm not trying to fight with anybody but we can't justify our opinions if we not going to be fair and listen to others..

ESU v. Tsunami is as personal to many as NCE v. Digitrax. People like what they like or what they hear and there is no changing likes or dislikes.

Sound is still liked by some and not by others. That is part of the sound argument. Where is sound headed? Nobody knows as the technology is improving and changing everyday.

There is nothing "fair" in life, especially on the internet. Fair is where you judge pigs. As far as listening, see my statement about no one ever wins an argument on the internet. One of the troubles with these forums and lists is you can elect NOT to listen, in fact on this very forum you can pick who you want to block from seeing their posts. Again, we spend much of our time shouting down opposing views, because he all are hidden behind a wall called the internet.

[grabbem88]

And I guess you miss took or I did about personal or how it was being used.,,

My Rs1 I mentioned earlier is a tsunami board and as Mark brought up about wood enclosures

Matter of fact when I was building my frisco Mark suggested it... I didn't do it to my frisco but I used a piece of bass wood as a cap on the zimo speaker and made it richer as he pointed out ..

I have more tsunami sound than ESU btw and one qsi 8-40cw and over a hundred more to build lol...

I initially thought we were talking about personal sound taste but nevertheless

I want more functions lol

[Mark R.]

One thing that I always get a chuckle from .... people want perfection from the manufacturers. They want the correct number of rivets, the correct size handrails, the correct variations of paint schemes, the correct sound files, but then they complain when the volume / frequency responses don't match the real thing (if I can't feel it thump in my chest, it's no good).

What if the sound was scaled down to match ? A diesel train at 45 mph from a distance of 100 feet produces 83 decibels. Would that scale down to ONE decibel ? Apparently, a human breathing is 10 decibels ! Scaled down, it would be barely audible ! Think of how sensitive the eardrum of an HO man would be and what little HE could tolerate compared to us. What we like to hear would cause that poor little guy's head to explode.

I'm not a physicist, so my theory of how sound scales down may be off ....

Mark.

[Deleted]

Oct 5, 2014 15:14:05 GMT -8 grabbem88 said:

And I guess you miss took or I did about personal or how it was being used.,,

My Rs1 I mentioned earlier is a tsunami board and as Mark brought up about wood enclosures

Matter of fact when I was building my frisco Mark suggested it... I didn't do it to my frisco but I used a piece of bass wood as a cap on the zimo speaker and made it richer as he pointed out ..

I have more tsunami sound than ESU btw and one qsi 8-40cw and over a hundred more to build lol...

I initially thought we were talking about personal sound taste but nevertheless

I want more functions lol

I'm cool, no muss, no fuss from me.

See my point, because both of us are behind these stupid keyboards, I think both of us have had a misunderstanding.

Back to sound.....

Putting a rectangular speaker(hood units) in a plastic case and then screwing THAT to a metal chassis is a problem. I've found many factory sound installations to be poor. Many speakers are not sealed properly in their chamber. This leads to God awful sound. I don't know if this is true or not, but supposedly, DCC/Sound models now out sell stealth.

So, since the good old power pack is nearly a thing of the past courtesy of DCC. How long before stealth locomotive models are history? BLI has already gone sound or nothing.

[Brakie]

Oct 5, 2014 6:30:33 GMT -8 @babalooey said:

Biggest complaint I have about sound is THE SOUND ITSELF.

Even with the best speakers, the sound coming out of the model still sounds like a cheap Japanese transistor radio from the 1960's. Everything has too much treble and not enough bass. It is still not anywhere near the effect you get when standing track side.

I tire of sound quickly. A few toots of the horn and ding of the bell and I'm done with those effects. One of my pet peeves with railroad video's is the CONSTANT HORN BLOWING AND BELL RINGING. Please make it stop after the first five minutes.

Maybe I'm one those people that like silence when running models. We do exist in this hobby. For those that like sound, more power to you. But, I still think the effect is far from the prototype experience. 

Jim,I have notice there are those that insist on sounding the horn every time they change direction while switching cars in the yard..This is not needed in normal yard switching.

[antoniofp45]

BTW: For those of you that keep up with technology.........

I understand that that earlier this year there was info about a technology called "N'Bass" that is supposed to help make the tiny speakers in smart phones sound as dynamic as music system speakers that are considerably larger.

Does anyone know if this technology is something that our DCC-Sound manufacturers are exploring and/or trying to adapt for onboard locomotive sound?

[Mark R.]

Oct 5, 2014 16:45:54 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

BTW: For those of you that keep up with technology.........

I understand that that earlier this year there was info about a technology called "N'Bass" that is supposed to help make the tiny speakers in smart phones sound as dynamic as music system speakers that are considerably larger.

Does anyone know if this technology is something that our DCC-Sound manufacturers are exploring and/or trying to adapt for onboard locomotive sound?

ESU has been in contact with these folks (Knowles - www.knowles.com/Products/Receivers-and-speakers/Speaker-enhancement-technology ) regarding their "N'Bass" technology, but there was one problem .... price point.

THEY make the speakers sealed in the enclosure with their patented enclosure material. IF all of our engines used the same sized speaker, it might be do-able. Unfortunately, this isn't a case of "one size fits all". For the quantities required from Knowles and the number of different speaker sizes in our industry, it quickly became cost prohibitive to do them all. It's not a total loss as ESU is working with Knowles to develop their line of dynamic speakers (cell phone speakers) to be used in model applications. ESU sent me a few samples of their test speakers - a cell phone type speaker in a sealed enclosure with leads, and they sound much better than the typical 16mm X 35mm we've grown accustomed to.

This has always been the weakest link. The sounds are there in the decoder - we just have to advance the speaker technology. And thanks to ipods, ipads, etc., we will be able to take advantage of that rapidly advancing technology.

[Brakie]

Mark,I wonder if the speaker from a broken ipods,ipads,cell phone etc could be salvaged and used?

[bnsf971]

Oct 6, 2014 2:32:44 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Mark,I wonder if the speaker from a broken ipods,ipads,cell phone etc could be salvaged and used?

I'm way ahead of you on this. I put a speaker out of an obsolete cell phone in a GP38:

[grabbem88]

That sounded really rich and clean

Now are all cell phone speakers safe?