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Post by bigb6flyer on Oct 29, 2014 13:31:27 GMT -8
I have a question for you guys.
Is used brass appreciating in value at all since their is relatively so little of it out there and the market for it seems to be imploding? Has it held steady or depreciated? Have any of you guys recently sold anything brass and how'd you do on it? Only thing I remember on any of the forums is a guy who is trying to sell a brass ac4400 Ho for $400. I know that's way below original mrsp. I know there's thw occasional piece on eBay, consignment, and various sites. I know things like paint job, original boxes, and general condition matter a great deal, but in general, how is the used market? Again, I am not at all experienced brass modeler. I only know what I know due to forums and sites like omi and brasstrains.com. Just wondering.
Thanks Brad
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 29, 2014 16:07:31 GMT -8
brasstrains.com provides recent "price history" info. to those who become members (ie give them your email address and open an "account").
The best answer is "it depends".
Anything diesel being released in plastic now tends to result in the brass prices of those models dropping. Alco Centuries that historically traded in the $600 to $700 price range, or higher, have dropped considerably, for that reason.
The Canadian big MLW's are still expensive because they don't exist in plastic--yet (the day is coming, and soon). Then they too will plummet; besides some (but not all) had QA/QC issues with excessive camber, etc., which will not help their value once the plastic ones are out.
If the model is truly mint (ie appears to have never been more then test run) and undamaged, and has great paint, and is from a builder and/or production run that is known to be of generally high quality and/or low production numbers--then the price is holding steady and even going up somewhat.
If the model is "commonly available" like for example the ubiquitous PFM Santa Fe 2-8-0, made by the thousands back in the day, and "close" to being a stand-in 2-8-0 for many railroads, even though very well made, they just don't bring much money. Everybody has them or can get them. They're good engines for a first time brass buyer and can be upgraded.
The later Challenger Imports/Samhongsa-built steam, along with the later W&R/Samhongsa-built steam will command a premium as the models are mostly very good and the builders are out of business, and both generally had a reputation for high quality steam power. Starting about 1986, W&R specified stainless steel valve gear and stainless steel driver tires--those models will run forever, and are not cheap--some have doubled or tripled in value.
Overland Models diesels after about 1991, when the tower gear drive was phased in, generally will hold their value at something below MSRP of the day (excepting the aforementioned Alcos, which have plummeted). They run very well, pull well, and generally speaking, last, with only minor tuning.
Caveat: 2 to 5 years after Overland introduces a new "modern" diesel, when it's no longer being purchased by the real railroads, and is therefore no longer the hottest thing that modelers have to have, the value goes down. It drops faster if introduced by Athearn Genesis or other good plastic version. At some point they tend to rebound (only if a good plastic version doesn't yet exist)--once nobody can find them anywhere anymore--that trend has played out many times over since the middle 1990's. But do they ever reach MSRP again? Perhaps not.
Overland Models brass Alco PA-1's especially in DRGW, SP, Santa Fe and D&H tend to hold their value better or even appreciate--because all of the plastic ones available have had some QA/QC issues and lack the road specific detailing of the brass versions. When models like these do become available on the market, they tend to sell quickly--especially the latest runs having true factory paint done in Korea with cab interiors and lights, etc.
I think the more common EMD diesels like SD40-2's still command a pretty good price (relative to original MSRP) if the paint is good and the model is undamaged. They can go for anywhere from $500 on up...because some of them were really nicely done models and some of the factory paint work from the '90's on was truly exceptional.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 29, 2014 17:30:33 GMT -8
Maybe I am missing something but if they are not out how are they sold out? Horizon is taking only backorders from what I understand. the only make what is ordered beast strikes again. I usually only order from my local store so if he can't get it I will probably likely pass. Some stores will get them in. Horizon is nuts.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 29, 2014 17:32:38 GMT -8
I have a question for you guys. Is used brass appreciating in value at all since their is relatively so little of it out there and the market for it seems to be imploding? Has it held steady or depreciated? Have any of you guys recently sold anything brass and how'd you do on it? Only thing I remember on any of the forums is a guy who is trying to sell a brass ac4400 Ho for $400. I know that's way below original mrsp. I know there's thw occasional piece on eBay, consignment, and various sites. I know things like paint job, original boxes, and general condition matter a great deal, but in general, how is the used market? Again, I am not at all experienced brass modeler. I only know what I know due to forums and sites like omi and brasstrains.com. Just wondering. Thanks Brad Short answer is no. Reason, lack of demand. Brass collectors are rare nowadays. Some nice and rare pieces will do OK. But as general rule, invest in stocks.
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Post by bigb6flyer on Oct 29, 2014 17:51:29 GMT -8
NDeM,
Thanks for the thorough reply. Makes sense.
Atsfan,
Thanks too for the reply. Yes indeed, I dollar cost average stocks regularly. (:
Brad
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Post by enginseer on Oct 30, 2014 5:20:16 GMT -8
I have a bunch of brass locomotives, mostly of certain, very specific models that I couldn't get (at the time) anywhere else in the hobby.
I have been selling or trading most of my brass off, one at a time, for plastic locos I really appreciate.
Most recently, I traded a CSX AC6000 for two sound equipped Athearn SD70ACE's unopened.
Why am I trading? Well, I've had to move several times recently and moving all that brass is a pain in the "you know what".
Modern plastic is very nearly as well detailed and satisfies my level of wants and needs.
I'd still like to support Overland as I like the business and the owners, but I don't see myself buying any more brass in the future.
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Post by bigblow69 on Oct 30, 2014 7:14:51 GMT -8
I can tell you one engine that has appreciated since my purchase. The last run of 3 unit turbines. Seen them on brasstrains.com at a price north of 3K.
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Post by bigblow69 on Oct 30, 2014 11:27:30 GMT -8
Horizon is taking only backorders from what I understand. the only make what is ordered beast strikes again. I usually only order from my local store so if he can't get it I will probably likely pass. Some stores will get them in. Horizon is nuts. They were in stock for a short time this morning. Now are marked out of stock. Gotta love this preorder model. Sorry no more ordering years in advance for me. I'm done.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 30, 2014 12:47:37 GMT -8
Some stores will get them in. Horizon is nuts. They were in stock for a short time this morning. Now are marked out of stock. Gotta love this preorder model. Sorry no more ordering years in advance for me. I'm done. Horizon must think there are thousands of train foamers who will line up like an iPhone launch. The reality is people filling up dumpsters with excess train stuff because they cannot give it away. This is a hobby which uses descetionary funds. If it isn't easy to do so, people won't.
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Post by Dear Leader on Oct 30, 2014 17:05:58 GMT -8
Overland got hurt when Canadian Model Train's owner ran off with customers deposits. I think this put Overland in the hole because CMT had a large amount of reservations with Overland, and about the same time, Overland's builder closed up shop. My understanding is some employees of the original builder tired to start up their own business, but it didn't go too well. I think Overland will bounce back ounce they get a new builder in line. There well always be a demand for brass models, from Overland, and other wise. The plastic models are not holding up. Poor motors, drive shafts breaking, poorly assembled model. Look at the Alco 636 debacle from Bowser. Yes, brass too had it's problems, but my fifty year old brass models are still running, my newer plastic, not so much.
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 31, 2014 1:27:31 GMT -8
Overland got hurt when Canadian Model Train's owner ran off with customers deposits. I think this put Overland in the hole because CMT had a large amount of reservations with Overland, and about the same time, Overland's builder closed up shop. My understanding is some employees of the original builder tired to start up their own business, but it didn't go too well. I think Overland will bounce back ounce they get a new builder in line. There well always be a demand for brass models, from Overland, and other wise. The plastic models are not holding up. Poor motors, drive shafts breaking, poorly assembled model. Look at the Alco 636 debacle from Bowser. Yes, brass too had it's problems, but my fifty year old brass models are still running, my newer plastic, not so much. Sorry, but there's a difference between poor quality control and "not holding up". A well designed and assembled plastic model can run circles around most brass pieces. It's when some manufacturers decide to cheap out, do poor design work or the factory wacks off and gets sloppy with assembly that models suffer. But lots of brass has arguably an even worse reputation in the running department than most plastic models. I know of a club that has a few big Brass OMI C- and M- series ALCO/MLW locomotives, that are such poor runners they're deadline filler and hardly used.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 5:11:46 GMT -8
Overland got hurt when Canadian Model Train's owner ran off with customers deposits. I think this put Overland in the hole because CMT had a large amount of reservations with Overland, and about the same time, Overland's builder closed up shop. My understanding is some employees of the original builder tired to start up their own business, but it didn't go too well. I think Overland will bounce back ounce they get a new builder in line. There well always be a demand for brass models, from Overland, and other wise. The plastic models are not holding up. Poor motors, drive shafts breaking, poorly assembled model. Look at the Alco 636 debacle from Bowser. Yes, brass too had it's problems, but my fifty year old brass models are still running, my newer plastic, not so much. Sorry, but there's a difference between poor quality control and "not holding up". A well designed and assembled plastic model can run circles around most brass pieces. It's when some manufacturers decide to cheap out, do poor design work or the factory wacks off and gets sloppy with assembly that models suffer. But lots of brass has arguably an even worse reputation in the running department than most plastic models. I know of a club that has a few big Brass OMI C- and M- series ALCO/MLW locomotives, that are such poor runners they're deadline filler and hardly used. I'd have to agree. Anyone with KMT, Overland rubber band drive diesels will tell you that plastic piece runs 500% better.
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Post by bigblow69 on Oct 31, 2014 5:21:28 GMT -8
I know of a club that has a few big Brass OMI C- and M- series ALCO/MLW locomotives, that are such poor runners they're deadline filler and hardly used. Deadline filler would adequately describe the Intermountain Loco's I had. They are now somebody elses problem.
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 31, 2014 5:36:48 GMT -8
It seems like, similar to cars and trucks, some people have better luck with brand A than brand B, and vice-versa. I can count on one finger the number of good-running brass I have owned, but have had good results with Intermountain products. There are other brands I have had huge problems with, just happen to do well with them.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 31, 2014 5:46:58 GMT -8
I had very good luck with most Overland Models products, period--steam, diesel, they ran very well.
The diesels require minor tuning to get all wheels touching a piece of glass and drive shafts turning freely, but not too loose or too tight, and some break-in. However, I did avoid anything with drive through fuel tank or anything that came before that. Those who ran the stuff wouldn't touch anything with drive through fuel tank unless you were going to do a complete rebuild to tower gear drive (which my one friend would do--Overland had all the parts you needed and would help some folks out with picking the right parts).
The only late model Overland product that did not run well for me were the Union Pacific 2-8-8-0's which did have a few electrical glitches. However, I saw B&O 2-8-8-0's from the same production run that ran just fine (friend had two of them).
My issues were mostly cosmetic--no two of anything were created equal by Ajin--some were indeed fantastic, and some had sloppy soldering, misaligned stuff, excessive camber (most noticeable in late '90's Alco/MLW six axle diesel bodies as well as the 1990's Alco RSD-15's) or paint/decal issues (Santa Fe U30CG's where the big yellow "Santa Fe" decals did not lay down over the ribbed sides but were clearcoated over such that you can't fix them without stripping the model).
Beware the 1993 and prior Alco PA's where Ajin plated nickel over very sloppy soldering--in some areas where you can't hide it with a little sanding and warbonnet paint. There were visible blobs and smears on what should be bare stainless steel side panels. Not at all acceptable on models selling for $400 plated, but not painted, at the time. Many of the ones I've ever seen had sloppy soldering; only a few were gorgeous. The later runs, after 1993, were indeed much better--those are the PA's to have...always wanted an SP "Halloween" orange and black one.
It's been years now, but I miss the pleasant whine of a well tuned brace of OMI diesels running around a layout...the only sound I really need in HO, lol.
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Post by Spikre on Oct 31, 2014 9:48:14 GMT -8
best running late 60s/early 70s brass diesels here are Hallmark FT A-B set. they didn't start out being too exceptional,but with work they improved much. they were built by GOM, were a powered A, Dummy B set as built. had bought 2 A-B sets, then powered the B unit of one set, and swapped off the now Un-Powered A-B shells. the GOM Gear Boxes had brass bearings and a much better gear tower than any early KMTs ever seen here. these FTs still have the original KMT Stack Motors as prime movers. added the largest Athearn Flywheels that would fit the short drive train, then gave each a long breakin run . great runners after that, rivaled Atlas/Kato units of the late 80s. now to someday get them painted in the EL decaled Erie scheme. Spikre
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Post by Dear Leader on Oct 31, 2014 14:31:21 GMT -8
Overland got hurt when Canadian Model Train's owner ran off with customers deposits. I think this put Overland in the hole because CMT had a large amount of reservations with Overland, and about the same time, Overland's builder closed up shop. My understanding is some employees of the original builder tired to start up their own business, but it didn't go too well. I think Overland will bounce back ounce they get a new builder in line. There well always be a demand for brass models, from Overland, and other wise. The plastic models are not holding up. Poor motors, drive shafts breaking, poorly assembled model. Look at the Alco 636 debacle from Bowser. Yes, brass too had it's problems, but my fifty year old brass models are still running, my newer plastic, not so much. Sorry, but there's a difference between poor quality control and "not holding up". A well designed and assembled plastic model can run circles around most brass pieces. It's when some manufacturers decide to cheap out, do poor design work or the factory wacks off and gets sloppy with assembly that models suffer. But lots of brass has arguably an even worse reputation in the running department than most plastic models. I know of a club that has a few big Brass OMI C- and M- series ALCO/MLW locomotives, that are such poor runners they're deadline filler and hardly used. No need to be sorry. My experience with brass has been very good, unlike the experience others have had. Luck of the draw I guess. To have those OMI engines a dead line filler is a great waste. I have bought what others have considered poor running junkers on eBay for parts, but found with some work they are great runners. Got to have a open mind and patience. Some people are runners, and some are modelers.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2014 16:38:47 GMT -8
Some people are runners, and some are modelers. There are many GREAT modelers that have seen the limitations of some brass drives and gutted or put the model on a shelf to collect dust, because the drive was SO BAD. The Gem Amtrak SDP40F with its soft highly flexible couplings. That thing could barely go straight let alone a curve. Some of the early OMI rubber band drives and tank drives where the diecast gear boxes disintegrate. Even Brian Marsh said to me that those drives are a low light for Ajin and OMI. The Alco Models Jawn Henry which was at best a static model because the KMT drive was so horrible. My friend gutted his Jawn and completely rebuilt the drive with Samhongsa trucks and universals from Challenger Imports. He used Sagami can motors and after a beautiful paint job and weathering sold it to a collector for $4,000. The factory painted 1948 Northern Pacific North Coast Limited from Challenger Imports with the BRASS CAST full width diaphragms. Train couldn't take a curve. Some people returned the models because they were not runnable without doing damage to the models. The train only cost about $5,000. There is some brass which is just bad in not only running but detail. 1960's and early 70's Tenshodo steam engines come to mind along with Akane and a few other long defunct builders. Early OMI caboose models also have been known not to roll due to blunt end axles in brass trucks. NO amount of lubrication can ever make those glide, you work to a point where it isn't like pulling a lead sled. Soho passenger cars with their crude trucks were sleds too. At least you may be able to find better trucks from someone like Railway Classics, but the detail under the car is nothing but a bunch of blobs of brass, so why invest $40 in one set of trucks. There are limitations to what you can do to these models before you invest a nice sum of money to re-engineer something which was built for its looks, not so much its ability to move itself.
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 31, 2014 19:39:13 GMT -8
Sorry, but there's a difference between poor quality control and "not holding up". A well designed and assembled plastic model can run circles around most brass pieces. It's when some manufacturers decide to cheap out, do poor design work or the factory wacks off and gets sloppy with assembly that models suffer. But lots of brass has arguably an even worse reputation in the running department than most plastic models. I know of a club that has a few big Brass OMI C- and M- series ALCO/MLW locomotives, that are such poor runners they're deadline filler and hardly used. No need to be sorry. My experience with brass has been very good, unlike the experience others have had. Luck of the draw I guess. To have those OMI engines a dead line filler is a great waste. I have bought what others have considered poor running junkers on eBay for parts, but found with some work they are great runners. Got to have a open mind and patience. Some people are runners, and some are modelers. Let me put it this way, when a club with very capable modelers building a highly detailed layout with a fair amount of modified or kitbashed equipment sidelines brass units due to running issues and low reliability, that says something right there. They do have other better operating brass locos that see operations with the rest of the fleet, but mainly run plastic because of its better operating characteristics and reliability.
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 1, 2014 6:51:18 GMT -8
Is it because the pilots on those big Alco/MLW's are rather low to the rail, along with the air hoses, and tend to short on vertical kinks? Or is it because they were never tuned quite right to begin with?
I'm asking because most of the big six axle ones (and if I recall correctly, all the Canadian M series units) came with what is known to be a good tower gear drive mechanism in them from the factory, that generally has rather few issues?
So I'm curious as to what the problem is that they don't run--because most of them ran well right out of the box back in the day (all the ones I've ever seen) but had some minor, annoying, QA/QC issues...
They did tend to find any kink at a turnout or anywhere else on a real world layout, and fairly often required minor tuning to get all wheels touching the rail. One can often gently twist or adjust the trucks in one's bare hands to do that.
Just curious?...thank you.
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Post by Dear Leader on Nov 1, 2014 8:38:10 GMT -8
No need to be sorry. My experience with brass has been very good, unlike the experience others have had. Luck of the draw I guess. To have those OMI engines a dead line filler is a great waste. I have bought what others have considered poor running junkers on eBay for parts, but found with some work they are great runners. Got to have a open mind and patience. Some people are runners, and some are modelers. Let me put it this way, when a club with very capable modelers building a highly detailed layout with a fair amount of modified or kitbashed equipment sidelines brass units due to running issues and low reliability, that says something right there. They do have other better operating brass locos that see operations with the rest of the fleet, but mainly run plastic because of its better operating characteristics and reliability. Put it any way you want, unless the model has been dropped, I have found all OMI, Westside, Akane, LMB, etc, models can be made to run. While I'm sure the modelers in your club are capable, I have found people have prejudices against brass, and in some cases, the people that buy brass, so with that mindset they, they want to say the model is not fixable, is a piece of junk, and can not be made to run. Their failure to make a model run justifies how they feel about brass models, makes their opinion substantiated, they look like they know what their talking about, and others just agree with them. If anyone starts a project with the mindset that it's going to fail, it will. I start my projects knowing I will be successful, and I 'am.
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 1, 2014 9:13:14 GMT -8
Even if the brass model has been dropped, there are folks out there with skills who can make it look as good as new--and run well, too.
I have seen engines that have been so "reclaimed" from the junk pile.
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Post by bigb6flyer on Nov 2, 2014 7:05:42 GMT -8
What brand or models are you looking for? Athearn's? Athearns in the 8700 series with PTC. Lombardy Hobbies has the UP PTC units in stock both w and wo sound....
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Post by bigblow69 on Nov 2, 2014 7:21:41 GMT -8
Athearns in the 8700 series with PTC. Lombardy Hobbies has the UP PTC units in stock both w and wo sound.... Good to know. Many thanks. I will have to check it out.
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