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Post by icrr3067 on Oct 30, 2014 7:30:27 GMT -8
The Illinois Central received 6 Alco C-636 in early 1968, and they were used mostly on the Kentucky Division in the coal fields. I model the Iowa Division so the Alcos rearly made it on the division but I do have some pictures of them running around paired up with Geeps. Also I just love the big ugly lug. Now my upgrading of the engines.  IMG_1099[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr My first project is filling all the holes on the cab of the units. How Bowser made the model is actually correct for an as delivered engine. I'm modeling 1969/1970 and by then Paducah moved the air horn and removed the beacon. Also Bowser made the cab with three marker lights and the IC only had two marker lights above the number board.  IMG_1100[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr To fix this I'm taking styrene rod and filling in the holes and cutting them smooth and going to use, what the auto industry nicknamed "butter," to fill in all the seams.  IMG_1101[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr |
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Post by kcjones on Oct 30, 2014 8:25:59 GMT -8
Tim,
Did you manage to get the windows and number boards out in one piece? Headlights came out at least, but boards won't budge. Are you going to repajnt? I wish you luck and can't wait to see your 636 finished.
JL
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Post by icrr3067 on Oct 30, 2014 10:37:12 GMT -8
Tim, Did you manage to get the windows and number boards out in one piece? Headlights came out at least, but boards won't budge. Are you going to repajnt? I wish you luck and can't wait to see your 636 finished. JL On one of the units the whole piece came out no problem. On the other cab the number boards are really glued in there. I'm going to let it sit in warm water and try to soften the glue. I'm not worried about keeping the headlights because I'm not using the LEDs. I'm replacing the headlights with lens bulbs. And yes I am going to repaint it so it matches all of my other orange and white engines that I did. |
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Post by kcjones on Oct 30, 2014 18:17:51 GMT -8
Tim,
If you manage to get the rear screens out, please fill me in. The rear screens are laminated between the body and the screen frame. I would think that they would have to come out before you can strip it, otherwise you will have old paint trapped behind them.
JL
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Post by icrr3067 on Oct 30, 2014 18:36:18 GMT -8
Tim, If you manage to get the rear screens out, please fill me in. The rear screens are laminated between the body and the screen frame. I would think that they would have to come out before you can strip it, otherwise you will have old paint trapped behind them. JL Well I'm not repainting the white only the orange and I was just planning on masking over the screens. |
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Post by kcjones on Oct 30, 2014 19:58:00 GMT -8
Well that answers that question. I'm going to have to figure out how to knock down the edge between the orange and white. Asked Bowser why they didn't do any undecs since they did do the 430 in undec. Well Mr. English said that they only made 50 430's in undec. I told him that I had bought one. Joking he said he could not give the other 49 away.
JL
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Post by Canadian Atlantic on Oct 31, 2014 5:34:45 GMT -8
Those simple mods will set your C636's apart from the masses.
Funny how I couldn't find any undec C430's when they were released. If he still has 49 I would take a few off his hands.
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Post by ambluco on Oct 31, 2014 8:04:18 GMT -8
Must have been a joke. I have some so there are less than 49. And like PEIR said, you can't find them anywhere. Well that answers that question. I'm going to have to figure out how to knock down the edge between the orange and white. Asked Bowser why they didn't do any undecs since they did do the 430 in undec. Well Mr. English said that they only made 50 430's in undec. I told him that I had bought one. Joking he said he could not give the other 49 away. JL |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 31, 2014 9:25:27 GMT -8
Everyone wanted an undecorated C430 until they announced it, then virtually nobody actually pre-ordered. When Lee makes a joke like that there is a grain of truth to it. Of course he has no idea how many later bought them from their dealer or how many are still out there somewhere for sale, hiding in somebody's inventory that maybe isn't a big online presence; what he knows is how many were actually pre-ordered. Lee is actually a really nice guy who likes to joke around rather than be too serious...it's a shame more folks haven't gotten to know him because he flies a little bit "under the radar" (is always so busy doing what he does).
Some will say it's because the undec. wasn't the NYC/PC/CR version that they personally wanted...but still, virtually nobody pre-ordered them ie way less than 50.
If you look hard enough, long enough, you might still find an undec. one...just like sometimes recent-run Athearn tunnel motors can be "impossible" to find, but with enough persistence they can always be located. (Maybe I've just been overly fortunate, but anything I ever searched for online I eventually found and was able to purchase).
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Post by kcjones on Oct 31, 2014 11:36:16 GMT -8
NdeM,
You hit that one about Lee right on the button. He sounds like the kind of guy you could sit there and listen to for hours. Years of experience and always a good story to tell. One strange thing. My undec 430 was a NYC version. Wierd!
JL
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Post by peoriaman on Oct 31, 2014 12:10:15 GMT -8
Everyone wanted an undecorated C430 until they announced it, then virtually nobody actually pre-ordered. "Everyone", of course, being all six people needed a C430 in the first place. A good paint job on Bowser's end probably killed the demand for undecs. The C430 and C636 are a niche market. One or two guys could swing the order with a big purchase, or lack thereof. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 31, 2014 12:57:32 GMT -8
A good paint job on Bowser's end probably killed the demand for undecs. You must have missed the discussion of the PC lettering on the C430. Or the lettering on the BN C636. Perhaps the words "adequate for most" should be used instead of "good". Ed |
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Post by peoriaman on Oct 31, 2014 13:32:59 GMT -8
You must have missed the discussion of the PC lettering on the C430. No, I saw that, and I agree. The font was bad. Didn't know about the BNs though. Someone must've been OK with the PCs though, since they did sell out I think? But I don't think I'm exaggerating much when I say "all six people" who needed a C430. Its a niche model. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 31, 2014 15:58:52 GMT -8
I'm one of the guys who bought the "bad" PC C430.
Because:
1. I had pre-ordered it and, when I picked it up, I didn't know about the badness.
2. I'm not a strict PC modeler. Most of my stuff is on the west coast. But I love the C430, so I decided to call it a run through. Since the model's lettering only really looks wrong when compared with a right one, I can evade the problem by NEVER buying another PC loco. We'll see how long that resolve lasts.
Ed
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 31, 2014 16:52:40 GMT -8
Everyone wanted an undecorated C430 until they announced it, then virtually nobody actually pre-ordered. When Lee makes a joke like that there is a grain of truth to it. Of course he has no idea how many later bought them from their dealer or how many are still out there somewhere for sale, hiding in somebody's inventory that maybe isn't a big online presence; what he knows is how many were actually pre-ordered. Lee is actually a really nice guy who likes to joke around rather than be too serious...it's a shame more folks haven't gotten to know him because he flies a little bit "under the radar" (is always so busy doing what he does). Some will say it's because the undec. wasn't the NYC/PC/CR version that they personally wanted...but still, virtually nobody pre-ordered them ie way less than 50. If you look hard enough, long enough, you might still find an undec. one...just like sometimes recent-run Athearn tunnel motors can be "impossible" to find, but with enough persistence they can always be located. (Maybe I've just been overly fortunate, but anything I ever searched for online I eventually found and was able to purchase). I bought both the painted PC C430's and a bunch of undecs. Had to order from several shops for the undecs. They were hard to find then. I didn't pre-order them, because I'm happier paying $200 than $300 for an engine. I like undecs, because factory paint is a crapshoot, and mods are a lot easier when one doesn't have to strip paint. I would have bought C636 undecs if available. Preferably unassembled and un-glued together. One would think that manufacturers would actually like the idea of selling something for the same price without incurring the costs of painting and assembly. |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 31, 2014 17:22:34 GMT -8
One would think that manufacturers would actually like the idea of selling something for the same price without incurring the costs of painting and assembly. But it's not the same cost to them: Undecorated models have to be packaged differently than RTR models so the end user has an easier time working on them. That means you have to design separate packaging just for the undecorated models, which costs more for the limited number sold. Also--all the parts that go into the undecorated version have to be sorted and counted by somebody human, then bagged, sealed, etc. The fact is the Chinese are very loathe to do that at all. They assemble models in an assembly line fashion--if they drop a part on the floor or damage it, they just grab another from the tray in front of them. The whole process of designing the packaging to packing the undec. models very likely takes more time on a per model basis than assembling the finished, completely painted and lettered models on an assembly line. |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 31, 2014 17:54:46 GMT -8
BTW--What's wrong with the IC orange?
The real orange weathered so badly so quickly that it was my personal opinion the Bowser model as factory painted is a pretty good representation (except the screens should also be orange).
I also have a brand new Bluford Shops IC transfer caboose on hand, that is a little bit darker--and I think it's likely too dark for being a flat finish (ie already should have some fading). But that's my opinion only--YMMV.
And I don't think they look bad at all next to each other.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 31, 2014 17:58:28 GMT -8
Since IC leased the C636's to Canadian Pacific in 1970, then tried to sell them, I can "justify" a couple in Mexico by saying IC should have sold them to Mexico instead of storing them for much of a decade prior to scrapping.
A whole lot of Alcos and GEs migrated to Mexico at the end of the 1970's. Some were so badly worn out they were retired before ever getting repainted into Mexican colors, but all the D&H Alcos received fresh paint before heading south.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 31, 2014 18:28:43 GMT -8
One would think that manufacturers would actually like the idea of selling something for the same price without incurring the costs of painting and assembly. But it's not the same cost to them: Undecorated models have to be packaged differently than RTR models so the end user has an easier time working on them. That means you have to design separate packaging just for the undecorated models, which costs more for the limited number sold. Also--all the parts that go into the undecorated version have to be sorted and counted by somebody human, then bagged, sealed, etc. The fact is the Chinese are very loathe to do that at all. They assemble models in an assembly line fashion--if they drop a part on the floor or damage it, they just grab another from the tray in front of them. The whole process of designing the packaging to packing the undec. models very likely takes more time on a per model basis than assembling the finished, completely painted and lettered models on an assembly line. I have a bunch of early Genesis undecs which utilized identical boxes and carriers as painted models. Parts were not mounted, but included in bags. Exploded diagram sheets are identical. Kitting parts does take time, as does physically attaching parts + painting models + QC'ing finished painted models. The assembly houses I used in North America and Asia would do whatever we told them to do. As long as we were explicit and clear on our end, there were few issues. Seriously, if you have binned parts on front of you, picking and bagging is less time than physical assembly. If we were talking stuffing PC Boards with automated picknplace machines it would be the other way round. |
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Post by icrr3067 on Nov 1, 2014 6:11:18 GMT -8
BTW--What's wrong with the IC orange? The real orange weathered so badly so quickly that it was my personal opinion the Bowser model as factory painted is a pretty good representation (except the screens should also be orange). I also have a brand new Bluford Shops IC transfer caboose on hand, that is a little bit darker--and I think it's likely too dark for being a flat finish (ie already should have some fading). But that's my opinion only--YMMV. And I don't think they look bad at all next to each other. The orange does look really good. BUT it doesnt match my other Orange and White engines and I model '69/70 where the orange shouldn't be fading just yet. I use Scale Coat II New Haven Orange IMO is perfect for out of the factory/shop for IC Orange. |
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 1, 2014 6:43:12 GMT -8
Thank you very much. I had heard some people use New Haven orange, but wasn't sure...
I prefer the factory fresh paint look myself, as well, in an ideal world.
Regarding the civility of this topic, aren't we still talking about modeling Alco Centuries? and why the OP had to start with a painted one for modifications and has to paint over an existing finish? I questioned the need to repaint the orange, but he desires a factory fresh look, which I cannot argue with at all.
Can't speak for others, but I'm trying to be as factual and respectful as possible?
YMMV.
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Post by kcjones on Nov 1, 2014 6:49:26 GMT -8
Tim,
You are absolutely right. The mfgs have always had trouble with the orange or the brown. I worked for the ICG for 7yrs and the real IC orange was much darker than most mfgs had. Against the white hood, it just "looked" brighter. That being said, I think Bowser has gotten it closer than anybody else to this date. I've seen everything from a "neon" orange to a reddish orange...aka Athearn's orange. Since you are reprinting the orange, you should stay with the same shade that you painted your other units. Plus trying to match the mfg paint is next to impossible.
JL
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 1, 2014 7:01:01 GMT -8
The Atlas IC GP40's are way too red and dark, and as a result are a tough sell to anyone who isn't going to repaint them. Too bad, because I'm sure it looked to Atlas as if IC orange and white stuff doesn't sell very well (they haven't done much since).
The Athearn SD40's (I owned several) are way too brown in color, and clash horribly with any P2K U30B's or GP38-2's.
The P2K U30B's and GP38-2's were "closer", but they all have a more "faded" orange appearance than some of us would prefer.
So of them all, I think the Bowser C-636 is indeed closer in color.
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Post by grabbem88 on Nov 1, 2014 7:09:48 GMT -8
Orange can be a pita to match let alone duplicating for multiple projects..
When I created amtrak's gp7 "pumpkin" the orange was good for mow orange but ended up icg orange after it dried.
If you can find it new haven plus MOW and a few drops of atsf reefer brown makes a great orange for icg..
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Post by thebessemerkid on Nov 1, 2014 7:33:18 GMT -8
Most of my Bessemer & Lake Erie engines match reasonably well, although I tend not to mix consists. Maybe it's something to do with black as the contrasting color rather than Illinois Central white?
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Post by kcjones on Nov 1, 2014 9:36:17 GMT -8
Kid,
I think your're right about the contrasting color. I've seen several variations of orange on MILW units but they didn't seem to clash even in the same consist. However, the white makes the orange stand out. I know the MILW purist are screaming their heads off right now.
JL
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Post by carrman on Nov 1, 2014 10:06:24 GMT -8
Kid, I think your're right about the contrasting color. I've seen several variations of orange on MILW units but they didn't seem to clash even in the same consist. However, the white makes the orange stand out. I know the MILW purist are screaming their heads off right now. JL Heretic...;-) Dave |
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Post by icrr3067 on Nov 2, 2014 8:24:46 GMT -8
Here is the color difference. The Box car is New Haven Orange thats what I use for all of my IC equipment. Where the C-636 is an OK oranges as you can see it WILL NOT match my custom equipment.  IMG_1109[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr As for more work that I did. The cabs have been puttied and sanded smooth now to spray on some primer to see if everthing is blended.  IMG_1107[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr  IMG_1106[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr |
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 3, 2014 11:42:51 GMT -8
Thank goodness I'm an LV fan, where it's perfectly realistic to have 6 red engines and every one be a slightly different shade.
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Post by icrr3067 on Nov 7, 2014 8:34:04 GMT -8
Not much on the engines over the week but, I have the cabs ready for primmer that I'm going to spray tonight.  IMG_1115[1] by Timothy N. Alund, on Flickr |
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