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Post by brotherlove on Mar 31, 2015 5:32:33 GMT -8
I have 2 of the older LL P2k GP30 locos painted GM&O. They run fair but not good enough (no cracked gears). Where should I start in rebuilding these to make them run smoother. I have also considered purchasing 2 of the newer Walthers P2k drives and swapping shells and the AAR trucks. Suggestions welcome.
Malcolm |
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Post by markfj on Mar 31, 2015 5:59:17 GMT -8
Most will tell you to get a Kato GP35 and simply swap the chassis out completely. This procedure isn’t too difficult, but requires the purchase of a complete Kato locomotive. Thankfully, Kato has returned the GP35 to production, so those models are once again plentiful.
A while ago, I undertook the dubious task of trying to rework the actual components of the P2K drive. The project was sidelined due to work and other time consuming obligations, but I may revisit it just for fun. However, it is easier to just get a Kato locomotive and put the unused GP35 shell up on eBay.
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Post by carrman on Mar 31, 2015 6:21:00 GMT -8
Hmmmm, I might have one newer P2K drive. Been contemplating selling it and getting a sound drive for my last MILW GP30 number.
Dave
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Post by brotherlove on Mar 31, 2015 6:46:09 GMT -8
Mark,
Thanks for the Kato GP35 suggestion. I am checking on AAR trucks for them now. If they are available I will go that route.
Malcolm
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Mar 31, 2015 8:37:04 GMT -8
Mark, Thanks for the Kato GP35 suggestion. I am checking on AAR trucks for them now. If they are available I will go that route. Malcolm Kato made a type-B truck both with oil roller bearings and with friction bearings for their RS-2 model. www.katousa.com/images/959072.jpgDon't know if they will fit the GP35 chassis. Send a PM to Kelly - nightmare0331 - he works for Kato will know what fits the GP35 chassis. |
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Post by slowfreight on Mar 31, 2015 8:43:09 GMT -8
Pull the circuit board. It will run much better.
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Post by llxlocomotives on Mar 31, 2015 9:24:18 GMT -8
What do you mean they do not run well? Three key things for P2K drives is clean the armature surface, lightly oil the motor bearings and make sure the old factory grease is cleaned out of the trucks. With those three things, they would run pretty well. The other issue with P2K is the diodes that make the light shine brightly at start up. The average starting voltage is sround. 4 volts. That can play havoc with a pulse low speed signal.
I've run a number of tests on various units that are reported on my site. Yes Kato is better, but P2K can be ok as well.
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Post by riogrande on Mar 31, 2015 9:34:51 GMT -8
Since since pulling the circuit board has been mentioned here and numerous times in past years, is it a good otpion to install circuit board style decoder in place of it and thus accomplishing two things - converting it to DCC and improving the running etc.
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Post by markfj on Mar 31, 2015 10:12:43 GMT -8
What do you mean they do not run well? Three key things for P2K drives is clean the armature surface, lightly oil the motor bearings and make sure the old factory grease is cleaned out of the trucks. With those three things, they would run pretty well. The other issue with P2K is the diodes that make the light shine brightly at start up. The average starting voltage is sround. 4 volts. That can play havoc with a pulse low speed signal. I've run a number of tests on various units that are reported on my site. Yes Kato is better, but P2K can be ok as well. I understand the use of diodes for the headlights. But doesn’t the board also include diodes for the motor? What purpose would they serve? If you pull out the diodes completely and hardwire all connections, will the starting voltage drop? |
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Post by steveturner on Mar 31, 2015 10:40:38 GMT -8
P2k Gp units run great with a little effort
Strip unit down
Tear trucks apart
Wash and clean all components
Run motor on its own after removing drive components for 1/2 hour each direction in a vise.
Lube motor bearings
rebuild trucks and fresh lube
Change axel gears, regauge
Ensure sq bushings seated correctly wnen axels replaced
Sq bushings should be loose and axels slide sideways freely
BIGGY>>>>>>>>>>>SOLDER FEEDERS TO OTHER TRUCK SIDE metal frame. DO NOT RELY ON TRUCK PIVOT FOR POWER PICKUP
Kapton tape frame at top where decoder sits install decoder of choice.
Some of these units are plug and play...............you are better off to rip the board out install decoder of choice and also replace the bulbs with LEDS. Use 1K resistor
These are great runners .Granted not like a kato or Atlas out of the box but they can be worked into nice runners without the expense of buying and gutting other locos and choping away.Steve
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Post by Brakie on Mar 31, 2015 13:07:11 GMT -8
All 7 of my P2K Geeps(GP9/GP38-2 and 1 GP7) runs smooth as silk.
While these can't run at slot car speeds they do run quite nicely at scale speeds..
Hardest problem I have is mu'ing them in DC for club use.
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Post by llxlocomotives on Mar 31, 2015 13:28:02 GMT -8
Mark, the answer is yes, if you remove the diodes, the start voltage will be in line with the more modern releases. One of the best engines I have tested so far is a GP18 P2K with a decoder installed. Testing was done with DC signal. The diodes were gone.
Steve's steps are great. The GP30's I have seen were a later version DCC ready. At that point the truck sides were directly wired to the card. That is one of the problems with P2K models, same basic drive I many variations.
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Post by jaygee on Mar 31, 2015 15:27:26 GMT -8
I have some first run SD7s in Espee BW. I intended 'em for some passenger use, when they're not pulling the paint off the wall on the San Joachin. Scrapping the light board got me some decent speed, and directional LEDs handle the lights. You can also remove some of the excess play in the worm gear heads with steel shims, as you would on an Athearn. My two 5300s are lookin' good and running even better ! Huzzah!
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Post by brotherlove on Mar 31, 2015 16:36:29 GMT -8
Thank you for all the suggestions. The GP30s don't run bad but I want to improve them. I will try the upgrade before changing out to Kato.
Thanks again, Malcolm
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TA462
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by TA462 on Apr 1, 2015 8:40:55 GMT -8
I own around 40 P2K loco's and have never replaced anything on them, except for the gears. I've replaced the gears on every one of mine. The older models had the cracked gear issue that everyone knows about. Brotherlove, I would bet your gears are cracked too. I've installed decoders in probably 80 + older GP7, 9 and GP30's and everyone had a cracked gear. Pull yours out and squeeze your wheels together and you will see the crack. Years ago I did a P2K torture test on the Model Railroader forum on a couple GP9's, these two loco's ran non stop for over a month only stopping to service and for me to inspect them. Long time members of that forum might remember. Anyways that was around 10 years ago and to this day they still purr like they were new.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 1, 2015 8:49:14 GMT -8
TA, since some have concerns over the running quality P2K GP30's and those with similar chassis on DCC when MU's with KATO's and Atlas, can you comment on your experiences regarding this?
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leikec
Junior Member
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Post by leikec on Apr 1, 2015 9:09:25 GMT -8
Thank you for all the suggestions. The GP30s don't run bad but I want to improve them. I will try the upgrade before changing out to Kato. Thanks again, Malcolm I use the Athearn gears to replace the original P2k gears and they work very well, but I've noticed that there is some variance in the replacement gear's tolerances. I spent an afternoon playing around switching out replacement gears on a pair of Annie FA-2 locos--I just kept switching gears out until I got running qualities that made me happy. Jeff C |
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Post by grahamline on Apr 1, 2015 10:52:50 GMT -8
Installing the TCS LL8-LED decoder makes them run quite well and draw less current. I got a couple of long-stored GP30s that had the worm gear bearings seized to the shaft. A little bit of Ronsonol (lighter fluid) got them freed up. Running the motor for a half-hour at mid-speed helped a lot, too.
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Post by wmpaul on Apr 2, 2015 12:11:02 GMT -8
But doesn't anyone have problems with noise from the P2K GP7/9 drives? Some of mine are fine, others just scream at anything above a low speed. Sound decoders are a waste unless I crank the voulume up enough to drown out the scream. I've had them apart and lubed (sparingly) everything, can find nothing wrong. Several suggestions have been tried, but to no avail. I've adopted the race car philosophy---run it until it blows. When it quits, maybe the noise-producing area will be evident. Any thoughts?
Thanks.
Paul B
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Post by bnsf971 on Apr 2, 2015 12:19:50 GMT -8
But doesn't anyone have problems with noise from the P2K GP7/9 drives? Some of mine are fine, others just scream at anything above a low speed. Sound decoders are a waste unless I crank the voulume up enough to drown out the scream. I've had them apart and lubed (sparingly) everything, can find nothing wrong. Several suggestions have been tried, but to no avail. I've adopted the race car philosophy---run it until it blows. When it quits, maybe the noise-producing area will be evident. Any thoughts? Thanks. Paul B Replace the plastic shims around the worm gears with metal or fiber. The plastic dries out, and will make a high-pitched squeal. |
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Post by alcoc430 on Apr 2, 2015 12:23:44 GMT -8
But doesn't anyone have problems with noise from the P2K GP7/9 drives? Some of mine are fine, others just scream at anything above a low speed. Sound decoders are a waste unless I crank the voulume up enough to drown out the scream. I've had them apart and lubed (sparingly) everything, can find nothing wrong. Several suggestions have been tried, but to no avail. I've adopted the race car philosophy---run it until it blows. When it quits, maybe the noise-producing area will be evident. Any thoughts? Thanks. Paul B Did you lube the bearings located on each side of the motor case at the motor shaft?. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Apr 6, 2015 16:27:34 GMT -8
Helpful tips as I have a fleet of LL P2K units (mostly E's). My hood units include an SD45, SD9, and two GP9's. I plan to give them a maintenance makeover as none of them have run in some years. Since I want DCC sound, I like the idea of acquiring at least one Kato GP35 for the a GP9 shell and a Kato drive for my SD45. However, I'd take the Kato routes only if I could find them at bargain prices since I normally see units on "the Bay" (DC drive) hovering around the $100 price range.  |
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TA462
Junior Member
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Post by TA462 on Apr 8, 2015 15:18:33 GMT -8
TA, since some have concerns over the running quality P2K GP30's and those with similar chassis on DCC when MU's with KATO's and Atlas, can you comment on your experiences regarding this? Sure can. It just takes a little bit of effort to change CV's to speed match a P2K GP series loco with any Atlas or Kato loco. I regularly run my ONR GP9's with my ONR Athearn Genesis SD75I's and my Atlas GP40's and with a little bit of fine tuning with the CV's these loco's will run at the same speed as the other makes. I use strictly Digitrax decoders if that makes a difference. |
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TA462
Junior Member
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Post by TA462 on Apr 8, 2015 15:29:37 GMT -8
Helpful tips as I have a fleet of LL P2K units (mostly E's). My hood units include an SD45, SD9, and two GP9's. I plan to give them a maintenance makeover as none of them have run in some years. Since I want DCC sound, I like the idea of acquiring at least one Kato GP35 for the a GP9 shell and a Kato drive for my SD45. However, I'd take the Kato routes only if I could find them at bargain prices since I normally see units on "the Bay" (DC drive) hovering around the $100 price range. Why swap out the SD45 P2K chassis? P2K SD45's are tanks, heavy with a ton of pulling power. |
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Post by mvlandsw on Apr 9, 2015 19:49:09 GMT -8
The main problem is the electrical pick up. I solder a 1/16" wide piece of spring brass or bronze to the steel truck frame so that it that rubs against the back of each wheel. Also solder a wire from the steel frame that is connected to the truck bolster to the motor or decoder to bypass the poor contact between the locomotive frame and the truck bolster.
Mark Vinski
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Post by lvrr325 on Apr 10, 2015 3:09:35 GMT -8
So what do I want to do with the GP18 I picked up a few weeks ago? It's a late enough run it came assembled, and it ran fine when I tested it, but even though it has an 8-pin plug it notes for DCC you should change the 1.5V bulbs out. Otherwise I'd already have put a decoder in it and run it some.
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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 10, 2015 5:31:56 GMT -8
So what do I want to do with the GP18 I picked up a few weeks ago? It's a late enough run it came assembled, and it ran fine when I tested it, but even though it has an 8-pin plug it notes for DCC you should change the 1.5V bulbs out. Otherwise I'd already have put a decoder in it and run it some. The easy way is change the bulbs out for 12-16v ones, or just install a resistor with each 1.5v bulb to handle the 12-16v output from the decoder. Probably something in the 680 to 1k ohms range depending on the bulbs used. |
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Post by llxlocomotives on Apr 10, 2015 5:46:08 GMT -8
You can change the bulbs. But, IMO, with todays decoders it is best to just remove the light card. It is another piece of electronics that can burn out or lose connection.
I frequently see units where the bulbs won't light and/or the unit won't run, either at all or in one direction. Remove the card and everything is fine. Most decoders today do the function the card was doing anyway. In DCC, your going to want those bulbs to be LED's anyway.
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Post by WP 257 on Apr 10, 2015 7:45:01 GMT -8
I hate to think of butchering a Kato drive, but as I'm now in steam mode and could use the cash to buy steam power:
I had purchased a new old stock 2001 run Kato ATSF SD40 (not a dash 2) off the evil auction site for only $75. It has a little run time on it, several hours, and runs just great. I have done nothing to it other than add a little light oil in a couple places. I'll offer it up for the $75 plus shipping to anybody who wants to use the mechanism. Perhaps I/we could sell the Kato body (now completely assembled, no glue)?
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Post by Judge Doom on Apr 10, 2015 16:31:58 GMT -8
You can change the bulbs. But, IMO, with todays decoders it is best to just remove the light card. It is another piece of electronics that can burn out or lose connection. I frequently see units where the bulbs won't light and/or the unit won't run, either at all or in one direction. Remove the card and everything is fine. Most decoders today do the function the card was doing anyway. In DCC, your going to want those bulbs to be LED's anyway. Proto 2000 units of that era are designed with all the wiring going into a standard 8-pin DCC plug, plugged into a stand-alone circuit board for directional lighting/speed control. Installing DCC is simply a matter of unplugging that circuit board and plugging in a decoder (no rewiring aside from changing/adding resistors to the lights). Much different from the Athearn setup with all the wires going to a common circuit board, that has a DCC plug on it. |
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