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Post by atsfan on May 28, 2015 17:21:14 GMT -8
I was checking out a link and found an amazing collection of 3D printed objects you can buy. They need painting. This would make a great source maybe for containers if the price is right ! I may look into uploading a container file to see what it would cost The basic shape of the cube etc. Painting is then fairly easy. Then decal. Anyway the lightbulb went off in my head we may be looking at the near future. www.shapeways.com/search?q=1%3A87Here are some HO products: www.shapeways.com/shops/miniature_models?section=1%2F87+HO+models&s=0
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Post by stevef45 on May 28, 2015 19:25:59 GMT -8
I ordered 1 item from them. Came out pretty good, but dam expensive. I do need to order a few other things but the price.....omg!
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Post by dti406 on May 29, 2015 4:21:12 GMT -8
I ordered 1 item from them. Came out pretty good, but dam expensive. I do need to order a few other things but the price.....omg! Isn't that the truth, one guy offers a bulkhead flatcar for $60, then you have to buy a Atlas Trainman car for the trucks, frame, etc., then paint and decals (if there are any), you're close to $100.00, this same guy offers a nice transformer flat car load for $53.00, still a lot to pay, I could scratch one out of styrene for less the $10.00 Rick J
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Post by Judge Doom on May 29, 2015 4:35:07 GMT -8
The cost of 3D printing most full model locos and freight cars (especially for the finer material to give a better surface finish), plus the amount of work to build, cleanup and any extra parts (not to mention donor locos for drives, etc) really makes it cost prohibitive for a lot of people, outside of ordering a "really want it" or some parts now and then. Dimensional accuracy can also be questionable as well - did the person design that model from official documents, or did they just do one up based on photos for fun?
And even then, surface finish still leaves something to be desired compared to most injection-molded plastic models.
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Post by rapidotrains on May 29, 2015 4:41:09 GMT -8
I think it's a great tool for scratchbuilding a specific prototype. I can see myself using 3D printing for repetitive detail parts in Union Station or Spadina Yard. It's also a great way to get a model of a rare prototype.
But you are right - the model is only as good as the skills of the designer. You still have to do the research and check that their research is up to snuff.
-Jason
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Post by rockisland652 on May 29, 2015 4:47:29 GMT -8
I think it's a great tool for scratchbuilding a specific prototype. I can see myself using 3D printing for repetitive detail parts in Union Station or Spadina Yard. It's also a great way to get a model of a rare prototype. But you are right - the model is only as good as the skills of the designer. You still have to do the research and check that their research is up to snuff. -Jason This is true, Jason. Dave Street is building a model of the Rock Island's Blue Island depot in HO scale. He designed windows and other detail parts to finish it up. The detail parts look great, much better than if he tried to piece them together with styrene. Plus, every one is identical, perhaps even more identical than the prototypes can be. This is a great way to get prototype specific details for a one-off model. This technology is still in its infancy. It will get cheaper, like VCRs, DVD players, etc.,...
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Post by atsfan on May 29, 2015 5:24:57 GMT -8
I am thinking it would be best for simple shapes, as in a container. Part of the price issue is two groups are looking to make a profit.
But for a company to make a batch of them, it is cheaper than tooling up plastic.
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Post by TBird1958 on May 29, 2015 5:47:47 GMT -8
I wish someone would use it to make good, affordable automobiles for Athearn F89s
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Post by bnsftcdiv on May 29, 2015 6:05:29 GMT -8
Right now, the technology and media is expensive-add the profit that Shapeways builds in and something for the designer and it looks steep. But, Like most things as the user base grows, more folks get 3d CAD savvy and a open source community starts to build, we'll see some pretty cool stuff come along(already out there!). Many libraries are looking at or have purchased this technology, so you may not even have to own a printer! Just use your library card. many schools have or are considering them as well. I'm lucky in that the college I work for is moving this technology forward rapidly in the coursework we teach. So I get to play and support with it some, but I often get to wait in line behind others projects. Lots of interest and demand. My 3d CAD skills aren't there yet, but they will get better as I learn to work with it. Until then the 3d scans work OK.
The bulk trailers on the site are very nice, and the only game in town for that prototype. I also picked up some quad ATVv's for my carmen and hostlers to run around the yard servicing trains and power. Can be a bit pricy, but they were the right prototype and compared to the Wiking ATV, in line with price and closer to the prototype. Unfortunatly, someone decided to cast those and ebay them, so the designer pulled them off. There was a pricy 53' refrigerated container similar to the CR English and the JB Hunts but thats gone too…so you have to be quick. I'm hoping they are just down for design improvement-we'll see.
I suspect that detail parts are where we will best/first see this applied to the hobby…need a 5 chime horn but the local hobby shop is out (or out of business!) or has different chime configuration than is available? Just download the part and net is over it to your printer. For the cost of the filament and a little print time-Voila! Instant parts for that loco! The PTC antennas are a great example of this. One off cars are another good possibility. I have a couple of styrene masters of BN taconite cars we need to 3d scan and clean up-built from CAD drawings and actual measurements. It will be a trial and error process taking some time, but may be the way to get these ready for the tac trains on the layout.
Laser and ink jet printers used to expensive and hard to work with. Now, everybody has one, and they are fairly simple to get great results with at minimal cost. I believe 3d printing will improve both in quality and price just like they did. Dremel seems to think that this is a tool hobbyists need…and I think others will follow suit.
Dave Burman modeling the modern Twin Cities Trempealeau, WI
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Post by riogrande on May 29, 2015 6:11:45 GMT -8
I wish someone would use it to make good, affordable automobiles for Athearn F89s You betcha. That would be great.
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Post by stevewagner on May 29, 2015 6:20:59 GMT -8
Amen to that!
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Post by riogrande on May 29, 2015 6:38:43 GMT -8
Well, hopefully now that Athearn Genesis has offered the bi-level open racks and likely will offer tri-level racks, there will be a push to get out some auto's or trucks to populate these nice looking racks with models from the late 60s or early 70s.
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Post by ambluco on May 29, 2015 6:48:42 GMT -8
I have several items I had printed at Shapeways and was going to make them available for purchase but it wasn't worth it. I did them for myself and it was worth it. Most of the costs you see are Shapeways costs, not the users. Material costs are still very expensive per cubic centimeter. You can't really even compare flatcar to flatcar. It has nothing to do with complexity but with material used. Start with a solid block the size of a flatcar that would be the most expensive even though it's just a rectangular cube. Now start removing material to form indentations, sills, stirrups, and that decreases the price. Two flatcars that look almost identical in length and width but one has a few more indentations (less material) would cost less. This is not at mass-marketing yet. It's still niche-filling for a missing prototype. I made a bridge that is as close to the prototype as you can get in HO scale. Measured from the prototype and everything. Perfect for what I wanted but not something another person would need. I ordered 1 item from them. Came out pretty good, but dam expensive. I do need to order a few other things but the price.....omg! Isn't that the truth, one guy offers a bulkhead flatcar for $60, then you have to buy a Atlas Trainman car for the trucks, frame, etc., then paint and decals (if there are any), you're close to $100.00, this same guy offers a nice transformer flat car load for $53.00, still a lot to pay, I could scratch one out of styrene for less the $10.00 Rick J
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Post by ambluco on May 29, 2015 6:49:14 GMT -8
What about Neo? Well, hopefully now that Athearn Genesis has offered the bi-level open racks and likely will offer tri-level racks, there will be a push to get out some auto's or trucks to populate these nice looking racks with models from the late 60s or early 70s.
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Post by antlorch on May 29, 2015 6:59:59 GMT -8
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Post by dti406 on May 29, 2015 7:30:44 GMT -8
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Post by canrailfan on May 29, 2015 9:11:16 GMT -8
A question for Jason,
Is it possible to convert the CAD drawings done for tooling Rapido's moulds to files useable with a 3D printer? Could this be used in some situations to make a better model?
There have been a number of examples of 3D-printed parts that could not be produced by injection moulding due to the physical constraints of the injection process. 3D printing can also reduce the number of individual parts in a model, by printing complex shapes as one piece, reducing assembly and finishing costs.
While the technology and costs may not be quite there yet, do you see a time in the not-too-distant future where 3D printing will be routinely incorporated in model railroad manufacturing?
David
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Post by Spikre on May 29, 2015 9:36:44 GMT -8
?? notice a couple of minor mistakes: 66 Ford Galaxie is actually a 64. 66-68 Cougar is actually a 67,there was no 66 Cougar. when they came out in late 66 they were 67 models. also a lot seem to be take offs of models already done. What Scale is It ? the Athearn Checker Cab,it seems too small to be HO scale, has any one ever measured one ? the one here looks to be about 1:92 scale. just wondering ? any one for a Trilevel full of Checkers ? Spikre
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Post by sd80macs on May 29, 2015 9:39:08 GMT -8
I am thinking it would be best for simple shapes, as in a container. Part of the price issue is two groups are looking to make a profit. But for a company to make a batch of them, it is cheaper than tooling up plastic. Actually tooling up a plastic container is a lot cheaper and quicker. For an HO scale 40' container at the highest detail level your looking and printing for hours to get one container and the plastic resin used in the printers is not cheap either. In the time it takes to print 1 container an injection molding machine will pop out hundreds if not thousands of containers. 3d printing is a good way to make a prototype, clean it up, make a mold, and cast in resin for more copies. I doubt it will ever be good for full production runs though.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2015 10:40:01 GMT -8
We're using 3d printing at my work, to produce items we sell. Yes, it takes a long time, but with three 3d printers running a few nights a week, we can make enough parts for a months of orders.
With low volume products, its much easier to 3d print on demand than make a mold for $10,000 and do it the "traditional" way.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 29, 2015 11:36:48 GMT -8
Expensive a*s parts. Sheesh, that is surely not making the 3D printing idea look more convenient and worth doing. I would like to buy the various vehicles but I could not imagine buying a bunch of unpainted rough models for $16-25 a pop then have to spend a bunch of time painting them. Most things on that website are unrealistically expensive. I have recently found out that inventions are NOT made to replace older ways and to SAVE money for buyers but rather to bring in a new way and sell those items at the SAME PRICE as using the older ways. Their goals are to be able to market their new parts/items for the same price NEVER for less the current selling prices. NEVER. Once the 3D printing grows and becomes mainstream they will replace the old way of manufacturing at a HUGE savings to the manufacturer but NOT to the consumers. Therefore the only reason they would switch to 3D printing parts is to EXPAND THEIR PROFIT MARGIN and not to bring a product to the market for a little bit less.
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Post by atsfan on May 29, 2015 12:00:56 GMT -8
Expensive a*s parts. Sheesh, that is surely not making the 3D printing idea look more convenient and worth doing. I would like to buy the various vehicles but I could not imagine buying a bunch of unpainted rough models for $16-25 a pop then have to spend a bunch of time painting them. Most things on that website are unrealistically expensive. I have recently found out that inventions are NOT made to replace older ways and to SAVE money for buyers but rather to bring in a new way and sell those items at the SAME PRICE as using the older ways. Their goals are to be able to market their new parts/items for the same price NEVER for less the current selling prices. NEVER. Once the 3D printing grows and becomes mainstream they will replace the old way of manufacturing at a HUGE savings to the manufacturer but NOT to the consumers. Therefore the only reason they would switch to 3D printing parts is to EXPAND THEIR PROFIT MARGIN and not to bring a product to the market for a little bit less. You recently found this out how?
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Post by bnsftcdiv on May 29, 2015 13:06:06 GMT -8
"to EXPAND THEIR PROFIT MARGIN and not to bring a product to the market for a little bit less."
Yep, it's expensive…..and one of the only ways to get certain pieces, done to your standards. Theres a bit of modeling involved as well.
You can always walk away….and wait for someone else to do it.
I prefer to think that is how new products get made, innovative ideas happen and lives and retirements get built. Cynics tell me that car prices are going through the roof, but watching inflation and comparing prices to the inflation rate, we seem to be OK. We demand more detail, accuracy in numbering and paint, and higher fidelity of sound…and it takes people(who want to get paid, health care and to eventually become a full time model railroader) and better technique to do that…And that doesn't come free, last I checked. When I bought my first PS4750 covered hopper from Athearn some 40 years ago I was exceptionally happy. And, we lived with limited detail and only a few road names. Intermountain, and then Tangent brought us more road names, better detail at a greater cost. Atlas has another 4750,, a Thrall and we have Trinity's and ACF cars as well. Demand driving prices met with supply. I don't think David Lehlbach of Tangent is getting rich yet. Jason, well I don't know him that well...
Ink jet printers- they give them away, because the profits are in consumables and the quality is better today than the first one I bought. PC laptops? my first one was well over 1200.00, now all seem to fall between 300 and 500. Flat screen TV's? etc, etc.
Free market, capitalist system. Economics if you will. If you want to design parts and give them away, the printers are out there to use. Go to it. It's fun to do, almost another hobby. But to make it as a full time gig, you need to make it pay for your time and effort. Those folks who can design and offer printers to use as a service need to maintain and update them, and to justify their time and investment.
I suspect that once Shapeways gets some real competition in the field, we may see some softening of the prices. Supply and demand-again, more economics.
Dave Burman
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Post by onequiknova on May 29, 2015 14:56:07 GMT -8
Man, that guy makes some cars I'd love to buy, but the surface finish and the fact they appear to be solid means no sale.
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Post by riogrande on May 29, 2015 15:07:11 GMT -8
The Madaboutcars would be nice if you could sort by date(s).
The Bulkhead flat car is intriguing.
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Post by stevef45 on May 29, 2015 16:54:17 GMT -8
The prices i dont believe are set by the designers, i believe its shapeways themselves. The designers/sellers dont make much off the products if i remember correctly. The thing with these products are, people have wanted them from some manufacturer and they were never built. Now someone had made them an option and well, people will pay the price for it. For instance. I plan on building NJ Transits MP20B-2 and nobody makes it. The long hood can be scratch built, but the nose is my issue. This cab will have to be sacrificed for the just the nose. If I really want to build this model, i'll have to spend money. www.shapeways.com/product/9NKTV9REU/ho-mk1500-cab-only?li=shop-results&optionId=42285988For my NJ Transit aqua train that is about 75% done build wise, i need generators for the flatcar. These are about the best ones i've foudn. Again, in order to do the build i'll have to spend some money on these things. But it will be worth it in the end. www.shapeways.com/product/UZCGY5ZU2/1-87-generator-atlascopco-qas200?li=search-results-1&optionId=42273310
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Post by ianclasper on May 29, 2015 21:12:07 GMT -8
www.shapeways.com/shops/Kitbasher?section=Freight+Cars&s=0Thanks for the interest in my creations. Now, I know that you all feel that these models are expensive, however the price is largely out of my control. I have spent a lot of time tuning the models to get cost out of the build while retaining structural integrity. I do make a little on each model sold, lets be fair, I have invested hundreds of hours into the bulkhead flatcars and some return should be expected. I am not in this to make money, it does allow me to build cars that I want and are not available at a quality that I demand if at all. Most of my models are built using "FUD" which as a process is not cheap. The machine they are built on are between 50 and 100 Thousand Dollars and as you can imaging Shapeways and its contractors need to recover that cost in the lifetime of the machine, added to the fact that the print material is propriety to the machine (think Inkjet Ink) and is also very expensive. As for accuracy, yes these are scaled from photographs along with various other data sources that as a whole will produce an accurate model. Builders drawings are simply not available, one builder I know of has deposited all of their drawings with a document storage company and unless your a lawyer with a legal case involving one of the freight cars your not going to get anywhere near those drawings. Although injection molded models of these cars would be great, the investment needed would be huge (Red Caboose was going to offer this car, however the Atlas Trainman flatcar very effectively killed that project). Add to this the variations and modifications made to these cars and you end up either with extremely expensive tooling or only a fraction of the cars modeled. I on the other hand, have modeled both major variations as delivered by Thrall and several rebuilt versions for various specialist commodities and have several other variations still in development. Here are the versions thus far: TSH71 - original as delivered car with lateral deck chains (one version in my store, another variation planned) TSH71C - original as delivered car with deck chains mounted in pockets between stake pockets (TSH71B / TSH71C / TSH71D are almost identical and make up the bulk of the cars) TSH7R - TSH71 with ends cut down and fitted with fixed bunks to handle re-bar (two versions, one with deck chains, one without) TSH7RC - TSH71 with ends cut down and fitted with fixed bunks to handle re-bar TH71CR - TSH71C modified to carry coiled wire, two different versions one with 12 sets of bunks, one with 14 sets of bunks (12 bunk version is almost ready for production, 14 bunk version to follow) Plus, these models are both designed and built in the USA. Ian Clasper - HO Kitbasher
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Post by atsfan on May 30, 2015 5:44:14 GMT -8
www.shapeways.com/shops/Kitbasher?section=Freight+Cars&s=0Thanks for the interest in my creations. Now, I know that you all feel that these models are expensive, however the price is largely out of my control. I have spent a lot of time tuning the models to get cost out of the build while retaining structural integrity. I do make a little on each model sold, lets be fair, I have invested hundreds of hours into the bulkhead flatcars and some return should be expected. I am not in this to make money, it does allow me to build cars that I want and are not available at a quality that I demand if at all. Most of my models are built using "FUD" which as a process is not cheap. The machine they are built on are between 50 and 100 Thousand Dollars and as you can imaging Shapeways and its contractors need to recover that cost in the lifetime of the machine, added to the fact that the print material is propriety to the machine (think Inkjet Ink) and is also very expensive. As for accuracy, yes these are scaled from photographs along with various other data sources that as a whole will produce an accurate model. Builders drawings are simply not available, one builder I know of has deposited all of their drawings with a document storage company and unless your a lawyer with a legal case involving one of the freight cars your not going to get anywhere near those drawings. Although injection molded models of these cars would be great, the investment needed would be huge (Red Caboose was going to offer this car, however the Atlas Trainman flatcar very effectively killed that project). Add to this the variations and modifications made to these cars and you end up either with extremely expensive tooling or only a fraction of the cars modeled. I on the other hand, have modeled both major variations as delivered by Thrall and several rebuilt versions for various specialist commodities and have several other variations still in development. Here are the versions thus far: TSH71 - original as delivered car with lateral deck chains (one version in my store, another variation planned) TSH71C - original as delivered car with deck chains mounted in pockets between stake pockets (TSH71B / TSH71C / TSH71D are almost identical and make up the bulk of the cars) TSH7R - TSH71 with ends cut down and fitted with fixed bunks to handle re-bar (two versions, one with deck chains, one without) TSH7RC - TSH71 with ends cut down and fitted with fixed bunks to handle re-bar TH71CR - TSH71C modified to carry coiled wire, two different versions one with 12 sets of bunks, one with 14 sets of bunks (12 bunk version is almost ready for production, 14 bunk version to follow) Plus, these models are both designed and built in the USA. Ian Clasper - HO Kitbasher Thanks for your work and effort. People post here that people should start their own company. Well this is how to do that in a reasonable fashion. Keep it up
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Post by atsfan on May 30, 2015 5:47:32 GMT -8
PS. It would help if their was a small explanation of what else is needed to finish the model. For example it obviously need trucks and couplers, but are these just then screw in or is something else needed etc? Just a suggestion. Thanks
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Post by slowfreight on May 30, 2015 6:03:25 GMT -8
Here's a question for the technical folks in the crowd: how long does the resin hold up? I have heard that some polymers used for ultra detail would break down after several years. If that's several years of UV exposure, I don't sweat it because none of our stuff does well under UV. But I would hate to build a craftsman model of something I really want and have it fall apart 5 years later!
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