New Atlas motor?

[carrman]

In the August 2015 MR there is a review for the latest incarnation of
the Atlas RS-1 with sound. There is a picture of the mechanism, and
it looks to have a new motor replacing the white plastic end cap
junker. Anyone have a new RS-1 that can confirm this?


Dave

[carrman]

From Rob Pisani with permission to share:


Hi Dave,



I saw your post on the D-List and realized that we hadn’t corresponded in a while.



The new and improved motor should appear in nearly all of our locomotives going forward. I believe the first to use it will be the upcoming H16-44. To my knowledge, the last RS-1 production run used the older motor design. It may have a slightly different appearance from previous incarnations of that motor, since it was incrementally improved (as we had discussed earlier). However, the improvements to performance were very slight, and the factory finally agreed (after much pressure from multiple customers) to use a motor of a completely new design with higher torque.



This new motor will be used in all upcoming Master and Trainman-series models that use the standard size motor (including the GP40-2W, GP38/40/40-2, GP38-2, GP39-2, C420, etc.). Our in-house tests have shown it to be as capable as the original “Sanda Kan” motor with regard to pulling power.



Regards,



Rob Pisani

Atlas Model Railroad Co.

[Amboy Secondary]

That answers a frequently discussed question about Atlas (and other manufacturer) motors.

[atsfan]

Why would they put a junk motor in an engine?
Inter mountain did the same thing.

[valenciajim]

Rob referred to "the factory finally agreed." So maybe the factory is calling the shots and is trying to cut costs.

[steveturner]

Have not kept up on junk motors or followed any discussion. Which MFGS and which runs have junk motors ? Generally are they poor in design ?, not made for heavy use?. Is motor physical size an issue? How about average use pulling 10-15 cars around an average home layout? . I have noticed smaller motors i think in Bowser. i did notice a small motor in my Rapido GMD1 ,we shall see how that stands up Maybe smaller motors allow for more sound electronics, but thats no excuse considering Sagami made quality small motors. Have a couple of Intermountain f units ordered i hope the motors are not dissapointing. The only bad motors i ever had over 30 years were a couple in Genesis f unit. I do not have heavy use. I know some folks run long trains on large layouts so i can see the issue with a cheapo motor. All things considered and the motor the heart of the loco it amazes the bad decisions made when cutting costs and corners on motors. Geepers you would think off the bat MR MFG in states saying or asking MFG in China what standard or whoes motor are you putting into loco, we would like to see it and its specs..........again poor MFg in China and poor quality control from this side of the ocean. Well i think when stuff likes this happens the government should call for a mass recall like automotive industry LOL, just kidin.Steve.............one things for sure the old blue box motors are like timex watches!

[steveturner]

I remember years ago motors came with spec sheets and performance chart in box with a single motor purchase.

[canrailfan]

It's nice to see Rob Pisani's name (indirectly) on this forum, hopefully he might start contributing directly.

In light of the information above, my question to Atlas is will they supply the improved motor as a part that we can order? Myself and perhaps others would like to change out the cheapo motors in Atlas locos we've purchased over the last few years.

Like Kato motors (with and without flywheels) Atlas could probably sell a significant number of the new motors as an ongoing part. It seems the cheapo motor was common to several model manufacturer's locos, Atlas could help solve the larger problem by providing a source for the improved motors.

David

[atsfan]

Jul 29, 2015 7:02:09 GMT -8 steveturner said:

Have not kept up on junk motors or followed any discussion. Which MFGS and which runs have junk motors ? Generally are they poor in design ?, not made for heavy use?. Is motor physical size an issue? How about average use pulling 10-15 cars around an average home layout? . I have noticed smaller motors i think in Bowser. i did notice a small motor in my Rapido GMD1 ,we shall see how that stands up Maybe smaller motors allow for more sound electronics, but thats no excuse considering Sagami made quality small motors. Have a couple of Intermountain f units ordered i hope the motors are not dissapointing. The only bad motors i ever had over 30 years were a couple in Genesis f unit. I do not have heavy use. I know some folks run long trains on large layouts so i can see the issue with a cheapo motor. All things considered and the motor the heart of the loco it amazes the bad decisions made when cutting costs and corners on motors. Geepers you would think off the bat MR MFG in states saying or asking MFG in China what standard or whoes motor are you putting into loco, we would like to see it and its specs..........again poor MFg in China and poor quality control from this side of the ocean. Well i think when stuff likes this happens the government should call for a mass recall like automotive industry LOL, just kidin.Steve.............one things for sure the old blue box motors are like timex watches!

Bowser, Intermountain, and Atlas have used this junk motor over the past years.
Not sure when it started. They must use the same factory.
The Motor has limited torque and is a known weak puller.
All three companies have said they will move to a better motor, but exactly when or what engines out or coming is kept pretty tight.
I have not bought any IM Gevos as a result.

Clearly this was a cost cutting move. All three companies have outsourced their business to China so they obviously don't have too say on their results.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Jul 29, 2015 5:56:17 GMT -8 carrman said:

From Rob Pisani with permission to share:


Hi Dave,



However, the improvements to performance were very slight, and the factory finally agreed (after much pressure from multiple customers) to use a motor of a completely new design with higher torque.



Regards,



Rob Pisani

Atlas Model Railroad Co.

Sounds like the tail is wagging the dog. So how much control do the U.S. companies have with their Chinese partners?

[steveturner]

Doesnt say much for Atlas and others.If i am in charge of R&D of my product line up i had better know what materials and quality components are going into my production. If it wasnt for the watch dogs on forums like this things wouldnt get taken care off. So what did Model Railroader say when they reviewed such locos with poor motors ? Have not purchased MR for ages but they used to torque test i think on their reviews. Cheap motors just immagine the cheap plastic in other components , gears etc. I have noticed very brittle worm gear covers on some new runs of locos............makes you a bit leary of striping down for a lube and service. Anyways it is what it is.We will have to make do and have fun! Steve

[Christian]

Jul 29, 2015 8:16:56 GMT -8 atsfan said:

Not sure when it started. They must use the same factory.

As Pisani mentions, it started at the end of Sanda Kan. A lot of USA importers scrambled for a new builder. Sounds like some got into "beggers can't be choosers" sorts of contracts.

[atsfan]

Jul 29, 2015 8:43:42 GMT -8 steveturner said:

Doesnt say much for Atlas and others.If i am in charge of R&D of my product line up i had better know what materials and quality components are going into my production. If it wasnt for the watch dogs on forums like this things wouldnt get taken care off. So what did Model Railroader say when they reviewed such locos with poor motors ? Have not purchased MR for ages but they used to torque test i think on their reviews. Cheap motors just immagine the cheap plastic in other components , gears etc. I have noticed very brittle worm gear covers on some new runs of locos............makes you a bit leary of striping down for a lube and service. Anyways it is what it is.We will have to make do and have fun! Steve

MR measured pull force not torque of the motor.
Motor tongue is one factor in how much an engine can pull.
Weight, gearing, wheels, are others.
Who knows what they wrote as their reviews are worthless shilling.
Model Railroad News has much better reviews.
MR is shrunk into oblivion.

[Brakie]

Bowser, Intermountain, and Atlas have used this junk motor over the past years.
--------------------------------------
I beg to differ..My Atlas/Kato locomotive motors is far from junk as is my Atlas/Roco Alco S4s.

Now this new motor may be just as good as any Atlas has used.

I will take a wait and see on this.

Junk motors to me is Bachmann's so called "pancake" motor,AHM or Tyco motors.

[atsfan]

Jul 29, 2015 9:01:29 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Bowser, Intermountain, and Atlas have used this junk motor over the past years.
--------------------------------------
I beg to differ..My Atlas/Kato locomotive motors is far from junk as is my Atlas/Roco Alco S4s.

Now this new motor may be just as good as any Atlas has used.

I will take a wait and see on this.

Junk motors to me is Bachmann's so called "pancake" motor,AHM or Tyco motors.

Huh?
Nobody is talking about the old Atlas Kato or Roco motors.
We are talking about the junk motor they started using after they got thrown out of their factory Bachman bought.
Maybe 3 years ago until, today.

[Spikre]

Larry,
when You find one of these Wimp Motors in an Atlas/Kato GP7,
or Atlas/Kato RS-3,let us know.
edit-- sure that the Wimp motors don't fit in the Roco S switchers
with out plenty of Grinding.
Spikre

[WP 257]

Bowser changed motors nearly a year ago now such that new runs following the C-636 (first run) were supposed to come with the new motor factory installed.

Atlas, Bowser, and Intermountain have been sharing the same factory since shortly after Sandra-Kan dumped a number of manufacturers.

[Judge Doom]

The "wimpy motors" were used on the last runs of Atlas products, including the RS3's and C424's. Someone had shown a photo online of one of the "new" RS3's with that motor inside. Also the Bowser C630M's, first run of C636's, Intermountain SD40-2 and SD40-2W to name a few known models. When the factories Atlas and IMRC were using changed, it seemed the old motors became "unavailable" and were changed too.

"...However, the improvements to performance were very slight, and the factory finally agreed (after much pressure from multiple customers) to use a motor of a completely new design with higher torque."

See kids? Enough people make a big enough stink about something, and the manufacturers will be pressured to change it. A pity Athearn is still making locos whose bulbs burn out after an hour of use.

[atsfan]

Jul 29, 2015 11:38:39 GMT -8 Judge Doom said:

The "wimpy motors" were used on the last runs of Atlas products, including the RS3's and C424's. Someone had shown a photo online of one of the "new" RS3's with that motor inside. Also the Bowser C630M's, first run of C636's, Intermountain SD40-2 and SD40-2W to name a few known models. When the factories Atlas and IMRC were using changed, it seemed the old motors became "unavailable" and were changed too.

"...However, the improvements to performance were very slight, and the factory finally agreed (after much pressure from multiple customers) to use a motor of a completely new design with higher torque."

See kids? Enough people make a big enough stink about something, and the manufacturers will be pressured to change it. A pity Athearn is still making locos whose bulbs burn out after an hour of use.

Or enough people don't buy the products.

[steveturner]

If anyone can oblige i wouldnt mind seeing side by side motors new and old of various products. So does size matter here or is it the quality inside and construction. I assume a smaller motor heats up faster?. Sound characteristics of a motor too are important to me .I really to liked motors you could get flywheel off of.Most are so pressed on so you land up bending or wrecking armature trying to remove. Many motor mounts too cannot be removed until flywheels removed because they are screwed onto ends of motor.I remember Atlas had a run off S2 S4 unit open frame motors that sat because no one could get flywheels off of old motor to replace without damage, i remember the parts guy saying why these didnt come with flywheels i dont know. Those innitially Roco open frame motors were pretty smooth.Well one thing is for sure with MFGs all using some of same motors it will not be hard to find a spare LOL.Have you looked at price of motors on E Pay.......just like everything else on there they to are part of the get rich scheme of things!! Steve

[Brakie]

Jul 29, 2015 10:00:02 GMT -8 Spikre said:

Larry,
when You find one of these Wimp Motors in an Atlas/Kato GP7,
or Atlas/Kato RS-3,let us know.
edit-- sure that the Wimp motors don't fit in the Roco S switchers
with out plenty of Grinding.
Spikre

Bob,I know there is a lot of pure trash talk on the Internet about different things the question I have has anybody have real hands on experience with these new motors or is it all hearsay because Joe "the all knowing expert" says so?

[Judge Doom]

Jul 29, 2015 14:26:18 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Jul 29, 2015 10:00:02 GMT -8 Spikre said:

Larry,
when You find one of these Wimp Motors in an Atlas/Kato GP7,
or Atlas/Kato RS-3,let us know.
edit-- sure that the Wimp motors don't fit in the Roco S switchers
with out plenty of Grinding.
Spikre

Bob,I know there is a lot of pure trash talk on the Internet about different things the question I have has anybody have real hands on experience with these new motors or is it all hearsay because Joe "the all knowing expert" says so?

Many people, I'm not sure how you missed it because the problems with this motor have been discussed on this forum many times over in the past.

I've dealt with half a dozen Bowser C630's with the weak as heck motors. They'd rather stall when loaded down than spin the wheels. I've taken them out, examined them, put different motors in some with a very nice increase in performance just by changing the motor. The IMRC SD40-2W's I've ran were also very unimpressive operators with around the same sluggish performance, Rahna-Outbakred-Maiala-Trudy has also remarked on this a few times, as has carrman on the first run C636's. It's the exact same motor used in the latest Atlas, Bowser and IMRC products because they all use the same factory, that puts the same motor in them. They likely had to make some changes to the motor mount tooling on old products to fit the new motors in.

In case you don't believe me, here's a recent run Atlas C424 chassis with the new motor in it that was being sold on eBay (internal photos are hard to find of the new run items):

[Brakie]

Many people, I'm not sure how you missed it because the problems with this motor have been discussed on this forum many times over in the past.
-------------------------------
I been rather busy last week was the club's county fair open house run a thon and before that I had to check over my equipment since I like 100% derailment and trouble free operation.. Did I mention its also railfan season?

Anyhow I would love to test these motors out pulling my cars up and down and around the club's layout and see how bad they are or if there is other factors involved like maybe over weighted cars or extremely steep grades? I've seen that several times over the years-cars at or slightly above RP20.1 and 5% helix grades.

The motor in your picture does look a tad smaller then the old motor-the weight looks different too..

[atsfan]

Jul 29, 2015 14:26:18 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Jul 29, 2015 10:00:02 GMT -8 Spikre said:

Larry,
when You find one of these Wimp Motors in an Atlas/Kato GP7,
or Atlas/Kato RS-3,let us know.
edit-- sure that the Wimp motors don't fit in the Roco S switchers
with out plenty of Grinding.
Spikre

Bob,I know there is a lot of pure trash talk on the Internet about different things the question I have has anybody have real hands on experience with these new motors or is it all hearsay because Joe "the all knowing expert" says so?

We even have Rob Pisani of Atlas saying the same.
Is that just trash talk on the Internet?
You go ahead and buy them and tell us how it works out.

[llxlocomotives]

I've tested a Boswer C-636. It is competitive in draw bar force and speed function with other recent release models. Including an Athearn Genesis GP9. It wouldn't at the same weight, but the Boswer model is heavier by 200 grams or so. Probably more significant is that it runs about 10 smph slower at 12 volts. Draw bar force at common weight and drive wheel number is directly related to motor torque. Speed at voltage is motor RPM and gear ratio.

In the situation of MR engine suppliers, they are in control. What choice does the importer have. I'm sure the motor choice was a cost-power consideration. The easiest way to satisfy the sound requirements is with power reduction. But how much is it much. The cost considerations probably favored an "off the shelf" solution. Limited sales will influence what the importer will pay. They clearly have been driven to a more powerful motor.

I have also tested an Intermountain SD40-2. It is not a W model. It comes with an ESU decoder, Pilot? It's weight is between the GP and the C-636. It delivers about 30 grams more draw bar force at 12 volts DC. That seems good, but it runs very slow at 12 volts. The real peculiar result is that adding weight, up to a pound, had almost no impact on draw bar force. That says the motor is near its torque limit as received. If torque was constant the force would go up by the friction coefficient times the weight increase. Because it does not, the motor torque is going down by that amount. To me that means the motor is undersized. This would mean the motor does not have the capacity to deal with the variations that are inherent to mechanical systems.

Because there is a decoder in the SD40-2, it may be impacting the resulting characteristics. I'm sure the speed is being controlled. How that is impacting the torque with weight is not clear.

What we need is a list of models that have this motor. Are only three importes impacted or does it run deeper than that?
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com

[atsfan]

Jul 29, 2015 17:58:42 GMT -8 llxlocomotives said:

I've tested a Boswer C-636. It is competitive in draw bar force and speed function with other recent release models. Including an Athearn Genesis GP9. It wouldn't at the same weight, but the Boswer model is heavier by 200 grams or so. Probably more significant is that it runs about 10 smph slower at 12 volts. Draw bar force at common weight and drive wheel number is directly related to motor torque. Speed at voltage is motor RPM and gear ratio.

In the situation of MR engine suppliers, they are in control. What choice does the importer have. I'm sure the motor choice was a cost-power consideration. The easiest way to satisfy the sound requirements is with power reduction. But how much is it much. The cost considerations probably favored an "off the shelf" solution. Limited sales will influence what the importer will pay. They clearly have been driven to a more powerful motor.

I have also tested an Intermountain SD40-2. It is not a W model. It comes with an ESU decoder, Pilot? It's weight is between the GP and the C-636. It delivers about 30 grams more draw bar force at 12 volts DC. That seems good, but it runs very slow at 12 volts. The real peculiar result is that adding weight, up to a pound, had almost no impact on draw bar force. That says the motor is near its torque limit as received. If torque was constant the force would go up by the friction coefficient times the weight increase. Because it does not, the motor torque is going down by that amount. To me that means the motor is undersized. This would mean the motor does not have the capacity to deal with the variations that are inherent to mechanical systems.

Because there is a decoder in the SD40-2, it may be impacting the resulting characteristics. I'm sure the speed is being controlled. How that is impacting the torque with weight is not clear.

What we need is a list of models that have this motor. Are only three importes impacted or does it run deeper than that?
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com

This is America.
I have no idea how much 30 grams is.
I read your post several times and have no idea what you are actually saying.
Most of it make no sense from an engineering point of view.

If torque is constant the force would,go up by the friction coefficient times the weight increase. Sounds impressive. But that is gibberish and would,get an F on any college exam.

[valenciajim]

All of these quality issues, yet the prices still keep rising. When robotics becomes more cost effective, this stuff will be once again made in the US. Until then, the problems with Chinese production will continue to plague us.

[llxlocomotives]

So you want to tell a retired engineer with 40 years experience and taught engine design in college that his post does not make engineering sense?

There are 28.3 grams per ounce. I measure and quote grams because the tool measurement accuracy is better. If the tool reads a gram, that is .035 oz.   Most readily available tools are limited to a tenth of an oz. By the way, Goggle will tell you the conversion to someting you might understand in a matter of seconds.

Now what about my physics do you not understand?

[ford86]

All the things I've heard about the new bowser motor is encouraging but doesnt do me any good unless they become available individually to repower the first run

[Brakie]

Jul 29, 2015 17:13:27 GMT -8 atsfan said:

Jul 29, 2015 14:26:18 GMT -8 Brakie said:

Bob,I know there is a lot of pure trash talk on the Internet about different things the question I have has anybody have real hands on experience with these new motors or is it all hearsay because Joe "the all knowing expert" says so?

We even have Rob Pisani of Atlas saying the same.
Is that just trash talk on the Internet?
You go ahead and buy them and tell us how it works out.

Well,as you should know there is a lot of trash talk on the Internet and I would rather check this motor for myself under my conditions not Joe "the all knowing expert" said.

Here's why.

The N Scalers trashed talked the Scale Speed Motor that Atlas uses and after several rather hot topics it came to light the biggest issue with the motor was the trains couldn't run at Mach 5 around the layout.