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Post by jlwii2000 on Aug 1, 2015 17:54:31 GMT -8
Which one looks better? Picture 1 - Staggered  Picture 2 - Aligned  |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 1, 2015 18:25:56 GMT -8
James,
Staggered will be easier to deal with scenically. Whether crossing a stream, road, another RR, etc, it's easier to do that and then deal with it running into that backdrop a ~foot away at an angle than with it perpendicular (90 degrees) as it would be with the bridges lined up.
Presuming you intend to extend the stream in 2D on the backdrop into a 3D streambed, better to angle it. If it can't be adjusted, then it's possible to disguise that sharp juncture at the change from vertical to horizontal in the pic to 3D transition.
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 1, 2015 19:21:48 GMT -8
If the bridges cross the stream at a right angle and the bridges are the same size, they should be aligned. Otherwise you would constrain the flow of the channel with abutments that are unnecessarily too close.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 1, 2015 20:38:42 GMT -8
Paraphrasing Ryan:
If the stream is coming straight out atcha, there's no reason why the abutments wouldn't stay parallel.
Paraphrasing Mike:
If you can make the stream look as if it's at an angle, then the offset might work.
The background picture looks "straight", so you've gotta go "aligned".
Ed
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Post by drolsen on Aug 1, 2015 20:48:44 GMT -8
Just me, but I think it looks odd to have them staggered that much when the tracks are so close together. That implies (to me) that the stream / road / whatever they are crossing is at an extreme angle to the tracks, so the bridge abutments will be significantly offset from each other, and you'll need a retaining wall that runs parallel to the tracks to connect the two abutments. It seems to me like it would be easier for the real railroad to build out the abutments at each end of the bridge span to simplify things, but I'm no expert on this type of construction. It just seems like the tracks are usually farther apart when the bridges are staggered in this manner.
Dave
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Post by jbilbrey on Aug 1, 2015 21:55:05 GMT -8
I have to go with Fr8kar and others, having the bridge aligned makes more sense from a hydraulic engineering perspective. By not having them aligned, you are creating a restriction the flow, that will cause water to back up upstream of the bridge. However,that isn't to say that railroads aren't known to violate sound practices of hydraulic engineering from time to time.
If you want the bridges to be staggered, then is is best to try to have some sort of separation between the two to tell the story of why they were constructed that way. Otherwise, your B&B Section is going be constantly removing snags from the river, repairing the downstream abutment's foundation from the undermining effects of the currents, etc.
James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN
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Post by theengineshed on Aug 1, 2015 22:08:37 GMT -8
Seems to me that you'd have a double track bridge or two different truss bridges. If they were built at the same time, you'd want a double track truss. If the railroad added another bridge later, it would look different, to some degree. Who makes this bridge, it is attractive...
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Post by stottman on Aug 2, 2015 3:06:24 GMT -8
As others have said, depends on the stream "angle".
Having said that, two bridges exactly the same is odd.
It should either be one double tracked bridge, OR two different bridges from being built at different times.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Aug 2, 2015 4:56:40 GMT -8
Reality is that for two tracks that close together, the expense of building two massive bridges would get people fired. The railroad would build a double track bridge which is much more economically feasible.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 2, 2015 6:12:32 GMT -8
I don't recall seeing staggered bridges that close in real life.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 2, 2015 7:05:02 GMT -8
I do agree that if the riverbed must run straight forward from the backdrop, best to keep the bridges parallel. So if everything except the staggered abutments is fixed for some reason, yeah, best to make them line up.
I personally think there's enough space between the track and the backdrop to put a dog-leg in the river just as it leaves the backdrop and becomes 3D. Moving the bridge location to the right 6" would make this even easier. Moving it the left looks somewhat iffier but might still be possible.
My comment about disguising the intersection of backdrop and the 3D river definitely applies if the river will flow mostly straight away from backdrop, leaving you with lined up bridges. This could be as simple as a line of trees (could also be buildings or the edge of a hill, for instance), but short enough to see the 2D river so to be tall enough to disguise that visually jarring transition fro 2D to 3D. Then the 3D river would emerge from behind that and flow straight as it is now.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Aug 2, 2015 8:13:41 GMT -8
I don't recall seeing staggered bridges that close in real life.
Victorville, California
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Post by atsfan on Aug 2, 2015 8:28:32 GMT -8
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Post by bnsf971 on Aug 2, 2015 8:58:47 GMT -8
Donell, not only are those bridges not staggered, they are also constructed differently. If nothing else, it helps prove the theory of bridges built at different times being slightly different.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 2, 2015 9:24:22 GMT -8
If ya study the desert photo a bit, you'll notice the far bridge is a more recent design than the near one--no tension bars, for example. If you want to have two adjacent bridges, I'd definitely make them old/new. If it was especially recent, the new bridge might even be a huge-mongous girder bridge painted rust brown instead of black. And, if it was a welded girder, you could scratch it really easily.
Ed
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Post by jlwii2000 on Aug 2, 2015 11:49:36 GMT -8
This is where I got the idea. This isn't too far from where I live, about 30 minutes or so....not staggered but different sizes side by side and yes different designs.  |
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Post by atsfan on Aug 2, 2015 11:55:05 GMT -8
This is where I got the idea. This isn't too far from where I live, about 30 minutes or so....not staggered but different sizes side by side and yes different designs. Nice scene As you say not staggered but different |
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Post by notabob on Aug 2, 2015 14:54:02 GMT -8
From what I see of the stream bed drawn on your foam sub-roadbed - it looks fairly straight. As others have said, staggered identical bridges will look weird when both are perpendicular to the stream. That said, the staggered bridges do look more pleasing to the eye (at least to mine). If you can switch to a different backdrop and have your stream go at an angle, then staggered might look more interesting.
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Post by jlwii2000 on Aug 2, 2015 15:30:52 GMT -8
From what I see of the stream bed drawn on your foam sub-roadbed - it looks fairly straight. As others have said, staggered identical bridges will look weird when both are perpendicular to the stream. That said, the staggered bridges do look more pleasing to the eye (at least to mine). If you can switch to a different backdrop and have your stream go at an angle, then staggered might look more interesting. I am going to angle the stream more in the foreground (Foam) and straighten it by the time it gets to the photo. That seems to be a good compromise, rivers are known to do that. -James |
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Post by atsfan on Aug 2, 2015 15:49:53 GMT -8
Are you going to also model the suspension bridge ?!
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Post by jlwii2000 on Aug 2, 2015 15:53:29 GMT -8
Are you going to also model the suspension bridge ?! No plans to model any more bridges than those in the photo on the first post. By the way, someone was asking those are MTH bridges (HO scale of course). |
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Post by bdhicks on Aug 2, 2015 16:13:09 GMT -8
I think if two bridges that close were staggered as much as your example picture, the bridges themselves would be skewed.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Aug 2, 2015 16:16:00 GMT -8
Actually, they are staggered.
South end, east side 
South end, west side 
North end,east side
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Post by runs2waynoka on Aug 2, 2015 18:43:17 GMT -8
This is where I got the idea. This isn't too far from where I live, about 30 minutes or so....not staggered but different sizes side by side and yes different designs. Having flashbacks to my days spent working out of Creston.... Of course there was only one bridge there then. I've read the old bridge is now weight restricted.... |
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Post by wp8thsub on Aug 2, 2015 19:06:22 GMT -8
I don't think the staggered arrangement looks odd at all, but I'm used to seeing prototypes like that.  This oft-photographed set of truss bridges on the UP in Weber Canyon are at one site I'm familiar with. www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=355259&nseq=11  Another view of the same locale from ssl.panoramio.com/photo/99498025 . Here's the map reference www.google.com/maps/@41.1380103,-111.8337369,202m/data=!3m1!1e3 . These are a few miles from the above: <iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=!1m14!1m12!1m3!1d880.5280127801099!2d-111.60392122337447!3d41.049779119599705!2m3!1f0!2f0!3f0!3m2!1i1024!2i768!4f13.1!5e1!3m2!1sen!2sus!4v1438571008999" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" style="border:0" allowfullscreen></iframe> As are these: <iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=!1m14!1m12!1m3!1d880.4909806441851!2d-111.5977789647186!3d41.05254619605416!2m3!1f0!2f0!3f0!3m2!1i1024!2i768!4f13.1!5e1!3m2!1sen!2sus!4v1438570960077" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" style="border:0" allowfullscreen></iframe> And these: <iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/embed?pb=!1m14!1m12!1m3!1d440.20644402182!2d-111.58746855338481!3d41.05838084661361!2m3!1f0!2f0!3f0!3m2!1i1024!2i768!4f13.1!5e1!3m2!1sen!2sus!4v1438570778167" width="600" height="450" frameborder="0" style="border:0" allowfullscreen></iframe> |
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Post by mlehman on Aug 3, 2015 5:36:31 GMT -8
Something else to consider about how often and how bridges cross a natural feature. How often do humans make right angles? How often does nature create right angles? Kind of non-scientific, buy Ma Nature quit answering poll takers' calls long ago, so hazard your best guess here.
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Post by rockisland652 on Aug 3, 2015 8:00:24 GMT -8
I like the staggered effect. Mine are staggered because the prototype is staggered at this location. However, I do like how it looks.  |
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Post by curtmc on Aug 7, 2015 21:44:16 GMT -8
James,
I think the staggered will not only look better but be more realistic. I think a railroad would have built a single dual track bridge if the crossing were squared (bridges directly side-by-side) and/or both tracks done at same time. The staggered look to me would indicate an original single track line that was later double tracked and the railroad just built a second like bridge instead of rebuilding the first bridge to double track.
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Post by mrsocal on Aug 8, 2015 5:57:22 GMT -8
Actually, they are staggered.
South end, west side
North end,east side
Victorville, Ca. Just about an hour and 15 mins. from the house. Great rail fanning spot but not so at this time of year. Hot and sticky! |
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Post by Christian on Aug 8, 2015 7:10:04 GMT -8
Staggered will look more interesting. And there are plenty of prototypes. Better is if the bridges are different, but that can be a matter of paint and/or weathering. There was one location in Chicago with FIVE side by side bascule bridges owned by different railroads but built to the same plan. Painted to each railroads color specifications.
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