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Post by WP 257 on Oct 2, 2015 8:54:31 GMT -8
Hello All-
As some of you may or may not be aware, in recent months (after my children were seemingly done showing any interest whatsoever in HO trains) I was left asking myself the question: If I could have anything at all that I wanted, what is it that I really want to have? That led me back to steam, an era I don't know, will never know, and can only vaguely understand. Yet there's still the utter fascination with what the mechanical engineers of so long ago were able to accomplish with steam power.
Then there's the somewhat underwhelming value of many of today's plastic models. Some have design compromises for tight radius like excessive valve gear end play that will result in some drivers flopping and slapping the rail, early valve gear wear and subsequent failure. Some look great, but sound very poorly, and with the "extra" features that some of us will never need, actually don't run so great (sound indexing in some makes creates a cogging effect resulting in train slack continually running in and out. Even with back EMF, this does not go completely away, and DC versus DCC does not matter either, as the same cogging effect is still there in both modes of operation). I also grew tired of the relatively generic plastic models that are out there. That doesn't mean I won't keep my just-purchased Bachmann WP 2-8-0--I will keep it (there's only 100 WP brass ones out there, and they are very hard to find). However, with that exception, I will avoid the more generic HO plastic steamers.
So, after many years of not being involved at all in HO brass (save one unfortunate purchase via a Yahoo train group) I decided to return to HO brass to get what I "want": accurate steam models that run well, period, and can even outlast me.
Howard Zane, though officially "retired" still has hundreds of HO brass models on hand to sell, and is offering them at what are very reasonable prices as compared what to other dealers are asking for the same or similar items. He only deals in person--you have to go see him at his house (the layout is larger than ever, recently grew more, and is simply unbelievable, and must be seen)--and he will no longer ship models anywhere. However, Howard guarantees that you will leave happy, that any mechanical issues with the model you want can be taken care of by him or a local expert technician who does work for him, etc. Every time I see his layout there are new things to notice and appreciate that I missed before. The trip to see the layout alone is amazing, and Howard is a very good host.
Regarding HO brass, the long and the short of it is this: they are more road-specifically-detailed than most of the plastic models, though some of the hybrids are good, and at least the later brass models are built to run well and last long-term, possibly longer than most of us. The earlier ones can generally be upgraded to run well if someone is willing to invest the time. According to Howard, many of the plastic steamers on the market, new or new old stock, just are not going to last as well as properly maintained brass. He did say that in his opinion some of the hybrid brass-diecast models were of better quality and potential durability than the lesser plastic models--on a case by case basis.
I was able to buy a beautifully weathered (factory painted) W&R/Samhongsa Soo Line F-10-S 2-8-0 at a slightly below market value price that runs great. It had belonged to a friend of Howard's who switched to O-scale. I'm going to run and enjoy the model till the wheels fall off, if they ever do. Maybe I can only afford to buy even just one brass model a year, but I'd rather have good stuff than a huge fleet of not-so-good stuff.
Obviously, my plan to have only a modestly sized layout with a few high quality engines and rolling stock won't work for everyone, and I'm not looking to start yet another "prices are getting out of sight" topic. Yes, there is brass that is too expensive to play with--but there's actually a lot of models out there that can be very satisfying to own and operate--and some of them are at least as affordably priced as the brass hybrids that are out or coming. Some are even better than that.
John
P.S. Ironically, since returning to a nearly all-steam layout my youngest son is getting interested in trains again. Though he prefers to run the Thomas engines, he does appreciate the new brass one and of course thinks it would be way cool if we actually ran unpainted shiny brass ones.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 2, 2015 9:15:07 GMT -8
When you scream at your (approximately) exact brass model of a 4-14-4 about not taking an 18" radius, it just laughs at you. Or is that the manufacturer?. A guy I knew wisely decided to pass on purchasing a W&R SP&S 2-8-2 because he believed that the properly modeled piston rod extensions would impact his minimum radius sit-u-a-shun.
And I still haven't heard of a brass manufacturer building models of articulateds with "swivel truck engines".
Yup, brass is pretty cool. And it reins it the common problem of buying a zillion and a half model diesels. For most of us, anyway--the "unlucky many".
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Oct 2, 2015 9:50:05 GMT -8
The old saying YMMV. If you are really into steam, brass, a lot of good advise and a sizable budget could be a solution especially for many roads which have had little available in the newer, HQ plastic options. Since I'm not a steam nut, I haven't the pleasure or displeasure of discovering the short comings of all the (what I thought were) HQ plastic steam engines offered in the past 6 - 8 years. I have been semi-casually reading comments on the newer steam engines and thought it was a favorable movement? Guess not.
I do know D&RGW modeler in the steam era have no choice but brass - the only plastic steam engines have been peripheral models such as the very short lived WWII UP type challengers foisted on the Rio Grande and quickly dumped after the war, or the N&W second hand articulateds. The main 40's and 50's era D&RGW standard gauge steam engines of better quality would force me to stop buying anything for over a year and spend it all on a single engine - I don't have that kind of motivation or discipline - probably very few have.
For a number of reasons, steam hasn't been my "bag". But as you have noted, it does help to have someone who can lead you by the nose to avoid the many pitfalls and set you in the right direction if you get a wild hair and some cash!
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Post by mlehman on Oct 2, 2015 9:50:51 GMT -8
Dealing with Howard is probably a straight up exercise. It can otherwise be a crap shoot with used or new brass, though. He's trying to take that unknowns factor out by having happy customers that way. WYSIWYG. Otherwise, a dealer with a good return policy can also work, as that's how I've done it mostly.
That said, tinkering with brass is not as difficult as it sounds. And not as comparatively expensive considering the price of new anything, either. Installing DCC/sound is not that big of a deal, unless it's really tiny, either.
Don't expect brass to be an investment, like so many do, but it works darn good for equipping a layout for a specific prototype.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 2, 2015 10:06:43 GMT -8
Hah hah, investment - not without knowing the brass market inside and out, and even then many items have been caught when HQ plastic items came on the market. What little brass I have (6 cabooses and 2 passenger cars) was born out of a need for certain items that were totally unavailable in plastic - never for investment. With the advent of many many more prototypically accurate plastic models,
I imagine many brass models value has taken a nose dive and or only bargains now for the brass connoisseurs - I assume it was someone like that who finally took my 11 Kumata OL/HCB/Challenger CZ cars at half their previous value when BLI came out with their fully finished CZ cars. (the brass CZ cars needed decalling, interiors, window glazing etc. so it's easy to see why the BLI cars were a no brainer) for so many - same for many other plastic pieces.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 2, 2015 11:04:18 GMT -8
Yes, great examples. here's another one. If you had a brass HOn3 K-27, once the Blackstone's arrived, it likely lost half the value it might have had on the used market. Poke around a bit and you can still find K-27s under $200. Anticipating that, I sold my one brass K-27 BEFORE the Blackstone arrival. That's about as far as I've ever gotten into playing the brass market.
But if you have a USE for a brass item, are a little patient, and it's not rare, you can find darn good deals on stuff that will knock your socks off.
Just remember the stuff is heavy. Not too big a deal for standard gauge, but it took a lot of effort to get my entire 4-car consist Key brass San Juan rolling freely and adding enough weight to my K-28 to pull up the 2.5% to Silverton without either a helper or leaving a car behind.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 2, 2015 16:13:57 GMT -8
Believe me, years ago, when I was younger, prior to house, mortgage and children, I had friends with bad brass habits--which got me into a bad brass habit. One would actually spend $2000 to $3000 cash on brass at nearly every Timonium show, and I was (one of) his "purchasing consultants"--lol. I bought/sold/traded enough such that I have a reasonably good idea of what is good and what isn't, and why. Sure, in the process I frittered away nearly $20000 in cash--but I learned something along the way.
I like to think that I'm a little older and hopefully wiser now, and I'm buying stuff to run not collect dust.
So my major question for Howard was "will this take my 26" minimum radius curves"?
Surprisingly, Howard indicated that an awful lot of the vintage brass was built before the larger radius layouts of today. The older articulateds will actually do radii down to 24". That means if one is a big articulated fan, it is still possible to get brass that will perform adequately for you on moderate radius curves, particularly the 2-6-6-2's.
Even then, I am learning to know my limitations. In some ways I can better appreciate a fine 2-8-0 or 4-6-2 over larger engines now.
John
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 2, 2015 16:18:01 GMT -8
Yes, there are indeed some fine recent plastic steam offerings but the durability is questionable for some. I'm trying to refrain from singling out particular manufacturers or models, but I have owned some that had issues I did not expect--which will not last.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 2, 2015 17:27:53 GMT -8
It does make a certain amount of logic that metal will have a much higher tolerance for wear than plastic. And, I have read where some modelers actually ended up leaving model steam because of the higher maintenance vs. model diesels - although they didn't specify if their steam was plastic, brass or both. Modeling in those cases imitated reality. The level of cash you discussed does drive home the scope of disposable income required to seriously pursue brass - although over time one can accumulate probably a surprising totality in plastic diesels and rolling stock - it just takes a heck of alot more of them to add up to 20k!
Well, this is one dance I probably have little business in participating since it's a different world than I swim in. I'll bow out and leave it to the folks to whom it applies.
Cheers
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 2, 2015 19:47:29 GMT -8
Well, the cash number I was talking about was a result of excessive trading...losing a little cash on each trade transaction...but I got an education for that price. I have no idea of the actual monetary amount--just that over time, over 100 or so engines bought, played with, and sold, it adds up to a lot of money.
On my worst transactions ever, I maybe only lost $250 or so on a big ticket item--a bad aftermarket paint job on a set of Overland Santa Fe PA's, and a defective articulated that was missing one key part that Precision Scale said they did not have (but Uncle Dave's Brass was able to actually get the part out of them, then he subsequently got me out of that model by selling it on consignment. Uncle Dave is also a reputable guy to deal with).
The valve gear on most of the plastic models is actually metal of some kind, but in many cases it is a relatively thin, stamped section. I have had that stamped gear buckle (a screw backed out and caught the valve rod), then the model (which was sound and DCC equipped) never ran right again, even after a professional repair tech tried to fix it, and was subsequently replaced under warranty by the importer.
The issues I'm seeing with plastic rtr models involve valve gear that is thin section, often has slight binds, and will most definitely wear the holes egg shaped in no time, partly because the rubber tired axle is a couple axles removed from the geared axle, with lots of built in slop between them, and the consequent "battle" between the rubber tired axle and the geared axle. The axle in between actually had so much slop that it would flap against the rail in tangent sections on each revolution--but was also moving side to side during part of each rotation. There's no way that will hold up over time--and it (the slap of the axle against the rail) can be seen in Youtube videos of that particular model, so it wasn't limited to mine only...
What I think Howard was getting at is that most of the brass models have more substantial valve gear than today's rtr plastic. The brass engines have generally speaking much thicker section rods, so there is a lot more metal to wear before any wear can become an issue.
Also, some plastic models actually had plastic driver centers, which just don't stay quartered long term. In new/mint condition the models can be a few hundred dollars--but they still won't last.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 2, 2015 19:55:32 GMT -8
Another thing is that so many of the plastic models still on the market today have had issues with plastic or nylon gears cracking as they age, whereas with brass and metal-on-metal drive mechanisms, you have less issues with bad gears (though there are a few brass mechanisms that were not very good either, but most of those were many years ago).
So if you have entire fleets of plastic models with cracked gears that too can become an expense.
Either way this hobby can involve lots of cash.
My total investment in trains, at any point in time during recent years, is likely less than most on these forums. I never got around to too many buildings on my layout, and my track plan is relatively cheap compared to most. Some of you would just laugh at how small my equipment roster actually is. (My son has twice as much partly because he never lets me sell any of his stuff, whereas I have traded my own stuff away).
I just have tried and traded a lot of different things. I won't attempt to do reviews like some--some of you guys are really good at new product reviews, and I stay out of that completely.
John
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Post by calzephyr on Oct 3, 2015 5:02:35 GMT -8
When you scream at your (approximately) exact brass model of a 4-14-4 about not taking an 18" radius, it just laughs at you. Or is that the manufacturer?. A guy I knew wisely decided to pass on purchasing a W&R SP&S 2-8-2 because he believed that the properly modeled piston rod extensions would impact his minimum radius sit-u-a-shun. And I still haven't heard of a brass manufacturer building models of articulateds with "swivel truck engines". Yup, brass is pretty cool. And it reins it the common problem of buying a zillion and a half model diesels. For most of us, anyway--the "unlucky many". Ed Brass models have always been true to form with the articulated engine having the rear engine correctly mounted and the front engine doing the swinging, but ALCO models did something that was really out of whack many years ago. ALCO models offered and sold a brass T1 PRR in the mid 1970 era with a swivel rear engine so it would run on tight radius track. The T1 prototype was not articulated and the model really did not sell well to brass owners or PRR modelers. It did however run on tight radius track and probably gave some owners a way to run the T1 on home layouts. My personal preference is for brass steam models since 1969 when I purchased my first PFM model. At that time, brass steam models were available for many different locomotives and plastic or die cast metal was mostly in the future. I do not decide on a model because of the price, but purchased the model for the quality and detail. Like any hobby, it costs money to have what you want. The older brass steam models can be purchased at bargain prices in the last ten years but many of the models built in Japan in the 1970 to 1990 era will not run on tight radius curves. Westside larger steam models built by KTM were good runners but did not have proper side play in the drivers to run on less than 30" radius track. In recent years, the brass models are not so unique with the die cast and plastic models being so available with good detail and DCC with sound. The so called Brass Hybrids are really good bargains in detail and price if they have what is needed for your layout. I had a friend for many years that passed away five years ago, and his two boys were not interested in his collection of several hundred brass models. His collection was extensive but the family had their own money and were not interested with his collection of very high quality models. Larry |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Oct 3, 2015 6:22:22 GMT -8
John,
Just FYI, W&R was considered the "Cadillac" of brass back in the day. When a typical Hudson from Overland might be $500-$600, a W&R Hudson was around $800. They were always high price, but you generally did get your money's worth in a rock-solid performer.
I own a W&R NH Y-3 USRA 0-8-0, and it is one of the finest running engines I own (brass or plastic, diesel or steam). It looks like it's gliding over the rails, it's so smooth. And power? Plenty for an 0-8-0.
WRT plastic gears, brass is infamous for cracking or worn out gears. They're also infamous for slipping drive shafts. In fact, NWSL has a long list of replacement gears in their catalog for brass locos. Slipping drive shafts are common on all Overland diesels and electrics. Cracked gears were common on Alco Models, and I've also seen them on Overland E-L MU cars and Crown Custom Mack FCD Railbusses. Worn out gears are a constant issue for all KMT tower drives for steamers, which includes anything from NJ/Custom Brass. And slipping flexible shaft connectors for all brass steam remains an issue, as the rubber dries out and hardens.
You really shouldn't get into brass without the ability to tinker with them to make them work right. A friend has a set of Overland PA-1's (2 pair). Each one derailed and shorted constantly. I had to completely disassemble the trucks and straighten them because they were all bent (some wheels were up off the rails, they were so bad). Brass, once set up, should run for a long, long time. But getting them set up can be challenging.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 3, 2015 8:52:52 GMT -8
Paul--
Excellent post.
Years ago my one friend who really liked to tinker with Overland Models diesels did spend the time to teach me how to tinker with them to get them to run better, so I understand about adjusting trucks to get all wheels touching. Upon getting a new OMI diesel, if it doesn't run exceptionally well right out of the box, I have a pretty good idea what needs to be done. First thing is pop the shell off and make sure there is adequate--but not too much--end play of the drive shafts against the female end universal. Too tight and the model won't run very freely. Too loose and the drive shaft can fall out on tight radius curves. It's a "feel" thing that you have to play with. For many years it seems Ajin only put them together well enough to pass a quick test run. Either that, or the handling of models at train shows was enough to bend up those long Alco PA trucks. I'm not sure which is more true--but the long Alco trucks are generally the worst offenders regarding wheels not all touching a glass surface.
I have tinkered with brass steam too--that's how I found the missing part on a mint Precision Scale WP 4-6-6-4. Someone else had tinkered with it and was too lazy or too dumb to re-install the special sprung part that kept the front of the boiler up off the front engine on the track. Not only did this result in a slightly off nose-heavy appearance, but it wouldn't run properly without the part.
Sometimes you buy "mint" engines at a train show and can't see those issues till you get it home, and coming up with a fix or a friend who can help you with the "fix" is essential.
The other approach is to buy well known "good running" engines from importers like W&R, who was indeed the Cadillac of manufacturers from the mid-1980's to 2014, when they went out of business. I'm very glad Paul is happy with his NH 0-8-0, and I hope to buy other W&R steamers in the future...but the price on them is actually rising now that they are finished for good. That said, Howard has some at below current market price for those who want them. Unfortunately, he only has "a few" but they are there for those who need them.
I can tinker, but I'm not going to disassemble, re-gear and re-quarter drivers. I find people who can do that for me and pay them what it takes, if needed, to get it done right. The few engines I miss are engines that somebody re-worked for me that I subsequently sold because I found out the model aspect of the model was not so good. This includes engines like the PFM Rio Grande L-131 which is neither an L-131 nor an L-132, but a composite of both. Today if I had one of those, I'd just run it and be happy with it. In my youth, it wasn't "right" in cosmetics so I sold it...dumb dumb dumb. Howard has a gorgeous 1977 one with the factory upgraded drive, can motor, and full backhead, and a very good paint job that just came in.
I'm not saying plastic doesn't still have a place--for most of us on a budget, it has to--but there has been considerable negative discussion about brass in online topics in recent years (mostly regarding the value not holding up and people lamenting the "value" end of the brass hobby and dealers now gone). There are still bargains out there to be had for those who want to run it. Older brass articulateds can actually be had down in the $500 price range now. That's very competitive with BLI, MTH, Genesis, etc.
Then you really have something that not everybody else has. No disrespect intended toward BLI for pumping out certain models, but not everybody needs a Y-6B. Some of us want an L-109 instead...
John
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Post by atsfan on Oct 3, 2015 10:01:06 GMT -8
All of my small brass fleet ended up not running
Some I fixed
Some I sold
Some still sit in the box
Is Howard Zane selling his personal collection?
Or something else?
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Post by mlehman on Oct 3, 2015 10:23:14 GMT -8
SNIP I'm not saying plastic doesn't still have a place--for most of us on a budget, it has to--but there has been considerable negative discussion about brass in online topics in recent years (mostly regarding the value not holding up and people lamenting the "value" end of the brass hobby and dealers now gone). SNIP John Yes, the complaints about "value" show those folks were probably buying these models for the wrong reason. They should've taken that money and put it in stocks or a mutual fund. Instead, they were trying to have their cake and eat it, too. You pay the price for brass because you need it and plan to run it. Collecting brass is an entirely different hobby than model railroading, where it doesn't matter how well something runs, it's all about looks and accuracy and, errr, value. To preserve that value, you really can't actually do more than unbox it and put it in an enclosed display. Truly accurate running gear, valve gear, etc, leaves very little room for satisfying the need for the clearances needed to run well on the layout. I bought a PSC K-28. Beautiful model, but a little test running showed it really didn't like anything much other than straightaways. The brake shoes, etc, were exquisitely rendered, but way too close to the drivers, and that was just for starts. I know some models do them in plastic to avoid this issue, but they were brass on this model and tended to short to the drivers so that it would've required a major rework to leave them in place, but ground down for sufficient clearance. The model was sold, as I don't need/can't afford any hanger queens around here. There was no actual defect, but the experience shows why testing is sometimes needed even then to determine if it is suitable for operation on your layout. |
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Post by calzephyr on Oct 3, 2015 14:53:06 GMT -8
All of my small brass fleet ended up not running Some I fixed Some I sold Some still sit in the box Is Howard Zane selling his personal collection? Or something else? According to Howard's web site, he retained a few pieces to run on his layout but sold all the rest to Dan at Dan's Trains. I have purchased a dozen or so brass models from Dan at Brass Trains over the past two years and found his business to be a good place to shop. Some of his prices are way too high and I simple skip over those. Howard according to the post on his site is out of the brass business. Larry |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 3, 2015 15:00:04 GMT -8
When Dan bought models from Howard, he purchased 1400 or so, but there were actually 500 or more brass models not accounted for, which Howard later found in the attic. They were moved to the attic during one of the big construction phases of his layout. Additionally, though he is basically "retired", people still actively bring models to Howard that they want to sell. The models currently on hand represent a very nice inventory of a wide variety of road names, not limited to just eastern or Pocahontas roads. There's a lot there for someone to buy, and the prices are reasonable, especially compared to what you may see elsewhere.
Howard actively maintains a website on which he explains that he now only sells in person. He doesn't want the hassle of dealing with mail order anymore, and I honestly believe he just wants to pass on his love of model trains to those who want to visit and listen to the stories, etc.
I've been down twice to see him during the last 2 weeks. The layout alone is worth the trip. My one friend (who may be buying a train store in the near future) wholeheartedly agrees--and plans to go back any time I want to go again.
There are other good people to deal with too. I've had good luck with Uncle Dave's...
John
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Post by drolsen on Oct 3, 2015 16:29:09 GMT -8
What little brass I have (6 cabooses and 2 passenger cars) was born out of a need for certain items that were totally unavailable in plastic - never for investment. With the advent of many many more prototypically accurate plastic models, I imagine many brass models value has taken a nose dive and or only bargains now for the brass connoisseurs... I'm the same way - I'm generally not opposed to brass, but I buy models to fill a need / desire for a particular prototype. I'll buy whichever medium offers me the best quality, assuming I can afford it. About a decade ago, I bought several OMI Chessie C-27A cabooses to model CSX cabeese. The end railings are a bit thick, and the trucks don't roll that well, but they're a good representation of a prototype that is still in use today. I also bought an OMI GP15T, which convinced me to never buy another brass diesel. The hood details, fan, and grills look really crude In comparison to high-quality plastic models. That model plummeted in value after the Athearn Genesis model came out, which is a far better model. The OMI model will probably get sold for a loss at some point, since I don't plan to touch it again. Steam is a different story though, I think, for the reasons already mentioned. There were so many unique steam engines built in small quantities that I think plastic will never offer as many options as brass. I also think The construction and details of prototype steam can be represented better in brass than diesels. I wouldn't mind finding a World War II era B&O steam engine in HO brass since I've always been interested in that era from a military history standpoint. I'd love to model a troop train or Baltimore harbor scene. I've always thought that if I gave up model 1998 for some reason, I'd model the Port of Baltimore during the buildup for Operation Overlord in spring of 1944. I'm not familiar with B&O steam prototypes though, so I wouldn't know where to start in looking for a model, or which brands would offer the best accuracy and running quality. I have a feeling Howard could tell me though... Dave |
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 3, 2015 17:16:22 GMT -8
My experiences with brass have only been sheer luck of stumbling on pieces bought stupidly cheap, like a streamlined Milwaukee Road 4-6-0 found in the swap meet of a car show for $30. It's in France now. I picked up some diesels and cabooses at a train show through similar means, stuff mixed up in the wrong boxes to where I had to swap around to get the right box with the right piece.
I would keep a Lehigh Valley 4-8-4 were I to find one, but only because I'm sure those will never exist in plastic. And a Reading 4-8-4 might tempt me simply because with the BWL one the old brass ones aren't as expensive anymore. It would fit right in with my vintage Mantua Reading 4-6-2, 4-4-2, and Varney 2-8-0.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 3, 2015 20:02:10 GMT -8
I'm not totally sure, but Howard may actually have the LV 4-8-4 on hand. I think I might have seen the box for one.
You might watch for the Overland Models Reading G1sa 4-6-2. It is absolutely a great running steamer right out of the box, and they were not great sellers because after Overland brought them in, the number one complaint was "I really wanted a Reading G-3." As a result they were dumped--cheap--as in $225 or $250 dumped dealer cost. This destroyed the value of the models on the market, though some people still try to get the $900 for the factory painted ones. Occasionally, you can find them available cheap, especially the semi-streamlined version imported at the same time. Those and the other northeastern pacifics done at the same time are among the nicest running Overland steamers I ever saw.
I somewhat stupidly sold my Overland Reading G1sa to Bob Bailey who still has it and loves it as his favorite engine.
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Post by Spikre on Oct 5, 2015 10:03:13 GMT -8
 Dave, not sure of the exact Class,but think Westside did one of the 70" drivered B&O Q locos in the early 70s. that would make for an interesting Troop Train loco. Westside sold plenty of the 3 piece Q sets with the Water Bottle Tank cars,but they were low drivered,maybe 63" ? Happy Hunting !! Spikre 
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Post by Spikre on Oct 5, 2015 10:05:37 GMT -8
 John, am having trouble finding things like the Original Front Range GP9 that is here,somewhere ? but how did Howard forget about 500 Brass Locos or Pieces ? just wondering ?? Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Oct 5, 2015 10:07:33 GMT -8
?? lvrr325, didn't Custom Brass do more than 1 class of LV Wyomings ? or was it several runs of the same class ? Spikre |
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Oct 5, 2015 10:12:13 GMT -8
?? lvrr325, didn't Custom Brass do more than 1 class of LV Wyomings ? or was it several runs of the same class ? Spikre Life would be complete were BLI to do Lehigh Valley Wyomings and Lackawanna Poconos! |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Oct 5, 2015 12:10:59 GMT -8
What little brass I have (6 cabooses and 2 passenger cars) was born out of a need for certain items that were totally unavailable in plastic - never for investment. With the advent of many many more prototypically accurate plastic models, I imagine many brass models value has taken a nose dive and or only bargains now for the brass connoisseurs... I'm the same way - I'm generally not opposed to brass, but I buy models to fill a need / desire for a particular prototype. I'll buy whichever medium offers me the best quality, assuming I can afford it. About a decade ago, I bought several OMI Chessie C-27A cabooses to model CSX cabeese. The end railings are a bit thick, and the trucks don't roll that well, but they're a good representation of a prototype that is still unused today. I also bought an OMI GP15T, which convinced me to never buy another brass diesel. The hood details, fan, and grills look really crude In comparison to high-quality plastic models. That model plummeted in value after the Athearn Genesis model came out, which is a far better model. The OMI model will probably get sold for a loss at some point, since I don't plan to touch it again. Steam is a different story though, I think, for the reasons already mentioned. There were so many unique steam engines built in small quantities that I think plastic will never offer as many options as brass. I also think The construction and details of prototype steam can be represented better in brass than diesels. I wouldn't mind finding a World War II era B&O steam engine in HO brass since I've always been interested in that era from a military history standpoint. I'd love to model a troop train or Baltimore harbor scene. I've always thought that if I gave up model 1998 for some reason, I'd model the Port of Baltimore during the buildup for Operation Overlord in spring of 1944. I'm not familiar with B&O steam prototypes though, so I wouldn't know where to start in looking for a model, or which brands would offer the best accuracy and running quality. I have a feeling Howard could tell me though... Dave For a troop train a B&O Mountain 4-8-2 would be a good fit. brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/PDG/Detail/31649/HO-Steam-Baltimore-Ohio-4-8-2-T-3A-MOUNTAINGenerally speaking the WSM B&O steam are good models and not in the four figure range, like W&R, Challenger, etc.. |
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Post by Spikre on Oct 5, 2015 12:48:02 GMT -8
Jim, most of the big B&O Mountains were built after the War,until late 48. they did have some of the big B&M Mountians also. B&O considered the 70" Q Mikes to be the equivalent of Berkshires, but that was looking at them thru colored glasses. any earlier B&O Mountains were medium sized locos,and not very impressive as Mountains went. see NYC,B&M,PRR and even L&HR for impressive eastern Mountains. Spikre
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 5, 2015 19:57:50 GMT -8
Spikre--
If you saw Howard's living room when he was a more active dealer, it would be easy to understand that you could move a bunch of models in a hurry to the attic and just forget they were up there...lol. I know it sounds preposterous, but I've heard the story firsthand from Howard as well as from others, and I have to believe them. He's a very busy guy, and one might forget a few when one has brass everywhere.
His living room display cases are once again full of brass (and his fathers' vintage O scale trains). He has more models than can be displayed in the cases. If I had more cash I could easily buy 5 or 6 more that I'd "need".
John
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Post by drolsen on Oct 6, 2015 5:20:13 GMT -8
Thanks for the recommendation, Jim. Those look to be pretty reasonably priced. That particular B&O number was part of the T-3Ba built from '42-'46, so I'd have to narrow down when exactly it was built. I noticed they also have an unpainted model for sale, which would allow me to ensure that the number was in service in '44. Do you have any experience with repowering these Samhongsa locomotives in the event that they don't run smoothly? Jim, most of the big B&O Mountains were built after the War,until late 48. they did have some of the big B&M Mountians also. I did some research, and the T-3 series locomotives that Jim referenced above were built from '42-'48, with the majority of these Mountains built during the war, according to the table towards the bottom of this page: www.american-rails.com/t.htmlI'll have to do some more research on these and other B&O steam. The T-4s you mentioned wee acquired from the B&M in '47, so those unfortunately wouldn't work. I'll keep "internet window shopping" in the meantime. Dave |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Oct 6, 2015 6:41:16 GMT -8
Thanks for the recommendation, Jim. Those look to be pretty reasonably priced. That particular B&O number was part of the T-3Ba built from '42-'46, so I'd have to narrow down when exactly it was built. I noticed they also have an unpainted model for sale, which would allow me to ensure that the number was in service in '44. Do you have any experience with repowering these Samhongsa locomotives in the event that they don't run smoothly? Jim, most of the big B&O Mountains were built after the War,until late 48. they did have some of the big B&M Mountians also. I did some research, and the T-3 series locomotives that Jim referenced above were built from '42-'48, with the majority of these Mountains built during the war, according to the table towards the bottom of this page: www.american-rails.com/t.htmlI'll have to do some more research on these and other B&O steam. The T-4s you mentioned wee acquired from the B&M in '47, so those unfortunately wouldn't work. I'll keep "internet window shopping" in the meantime. Dave These models already run pretty well out of the box, since they have Cannon can motors. Nearly all brass especially steam needs a tweak here and there to dial it in for operation. Lubrication, checking the rods and the flexible coupling between the motor and gear box are essential. |
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