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Post by jlwii2000 on Feb 6, 2016 9:46:46 GMT -8
I just finished up another rolling stock review, the Athearn RTR Bethgon Coalporters. This review left me with a few questions:
1. Are some coalporters equipped with double ended rotary couplers or are they all singles?
2. Has anyone encountered any problems with using ballast or real coal loads versus the ones provided? Too much weight, etc....
Anyway, enjoy. I go back to locomotives very soon and eventually more how to videos later this spring/summer.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 6, 2016 10:32:10 GMT -8
1. Are some coalporters equipped with double ended rotary couplers or are they all singles? Yes. Some are. Each unit train of Bethgons has to have a rotary coupler at both ends of the train, so that the train can go through the unloader. Locos don't have them, so without a double ender, you could't twist the "last" one for unloading. It is considered bad form, at the very least, to put two rotary couplers together. Though I could almost swear I've seen it done. Anyway, to be "official", ya gotta NEVER do that. And so the rotary coupler indicating panels on the cars NEVER are "touching". And Athearn has produced some for BNSF, anyway: www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH97477and BNSF swoosh (over on the right): www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH93066And for BN: www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH97474There's also one or more in non-black BN, but I'm not finding a picture. Interest in Bethgons seems to be sorta, uh, localized. So I can't say whether Athearn has done double-enders in other roads. Ed |
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Post by Gary P on Feb 8, 2016 3:44:06 GMT -8
1. Are some coalporters equipped with double ended rotary couplers or are they all singles? Yes. Some are. Each unit train of Bethgons has to have a rotary coupler at both ends of the train, so that the train can go through the unloader. Locos don't have them, so without a double ender, you could't twist the "last" one for unloading. It is considered bad form, at the very least, to put two rotary couplers together. Though I could almost swear I've seen it done. Anyway, to be "official", ya gotta NEVER do that. And so the rotary coupler indicating panels on the cars NEVER are "touching".... Any idea what the reason might be for that? Are the rotary couplers a little weaker than regular couplers? James - Another nice review!  |
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 8, 2016 4:23:51 GMT -8
Rotary equipped cars get coupled rotary to rotary (A end to A end) quite frequently, though I've never seen it in the context of a unit train. So many older steel gondolas are in scrap service now that it would be a hardship to ensure that the cars are never coupled rotary to rotary, given the limited options to turn the cars at places where the trains or cuts are made up. It's also not uncommon to see short cuts of coal or petcoke in rotary equipped cars where no care was taken to place the cars A end to B end.
I imagine the reason for not placing two rotary equipped cars A end to A end in rotary dumper service is that returning the cars after the dump cycle would likely leave the couplers twisted out of alignment with the rest of the train with no easy way to return them to normal.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 9, 2016 1:23:41 GMT -8
A model railroad club I was a member of years ago used painted dry Acini pasta as a cheap "coal" load in a working loader and rotary dumper system, although it presented problems with mice eating it.
I said, why not use real coal, you could probably pick up enough chunks of it for free just walking the ROW to bust up small enough and use. The reason they didn't was because "coal dust is explosive" ... apparently loading and unloading would raise some?
I think if I were doing it I'd sift and rinse some real cinder ballast. Close enough, already small, and not explosive. But I also know where I can fill a five gallon pail behind a hotbox detector without making any real noticeable dent in the ground.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 7:31:39 GMT -8
A model railroad club I was a member of years ago used painted dry Acini pasta as a cheap "coal" load in a working loader and rotary dumper system, although it presented problems with mice eating it. I said, why not use real coal... The reason they didn't was because "coal dust is explosive" ... apparently loading and unloading would raise some? That's nuts. |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 9, 2016 7:47:07 GMT -8
It isn't only coal dust that's explosive, but rice hull dust too. Back when I was in high school chemistry the teachers had a squeeze bottle full of powdered rice hulls. He squirted it across a Bunsen burner flame got a 6 foot flame blasting out like a flame thrower. I've read news items about grain elevators exploding when the dust got ignited.
That said, I imagine you can get some good hard Anthracite coal in scale size which would have virtually no dust. It's hard enough that once sized and screened, it shouldn't have much at all. Plenty of people use real coal in their coal car loads. There was a coal train at the Timonium show and the coal was very sparkly; I was told it was all real coal.
I knew a retired policeman in Syracuse who had build a basement layout and he has build working coal loaders and rotary coal dumpers (using Switch master slow motors to turn them). He could load coal into his coal cars and then dump them at another location. Pretty cool stuff. Of course he didn't have rotary couplers so had to separate the coal cars and push them into the rotary dumper one at a time.
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Post by canrailfan on Feb 9, 2016 8:35:48 GMT -8
Rotary equipped cars get coupled rotary to rotary (A end to A end) quite frequently, though I've never seen it in the context of a unit train. So many older steel gondolas are in scrap service now that it would be a hardship to ensure that the cars are never coupled rotary to rotary, given the limited options to turn the cars at places where the trains or cuts are made up. It's also not uncommon to see short cuts of coal or petcoke in rotary equipped cars where no care was taken to place the cars A end to B end. I imagine the reason for not placing two rotary equipped cars A end to A end in rotary dumper service is that returning the cars after the dump cycle would likely leave the couplers twisted out of alignment with the rest of the train with no easy way to return them to normal. I would think that a rotary to rotary coupling might vibrate off horizontal just in normal running. A dual rotary car would only be needed at the end of the set to couple to the locomotive. Most coal gondolas I've seen that are retired to scrap or tie service have had the rotary coupler replaced with a regular coupler. The painted panel designating the A end is still there though. David |
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 9, 2016 11:23:33 GMT -8
I would think that a rotary to rotary coupling might vibrate off horizontal just in normal running. A dual rotary car would only be needed at the end of the set to couple to the locomotive. Most coal gondolas I've seen that are retired to scrap or tie service have had the rotary coupler replaced with a regular coupler. The painted panel designating the A end is still there though. David I thought the same thing, but they aren't exactly free moving. The mass of the coupler isn't centered on the rotating axis, either. The weight of the lower shelf and the lack of anything above it probably keeps it from rotating far out of alignment. All the gondolas that I've seen still have the rotary coupler with the separate pin lifter. And of course the rotary equipped hoppers we get here haven't been changed out. I'll be pulling and spotting a scrap facility tonight, so I'll keep an eye out. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 9, 2016 11:28:25 GMT -8
It isn't only coal dust that's explosive, but rice hull dust too. Back when I was in high school chemistry the teachers had a squeeze bottle full of powdered rice hulls. He squirted it across a Bunsen burner flame got a 6 foot flame blasting out like a flame thrower. I've read news items about grain elevators exploding when the dust got ignited. That said, I imagine you can get some good hard Anthracite coal in scale size which would have virtually no dust. It's hard enough that once sized and screened, it shouldn't have much at all. Plenty of people use real coal in their coal car loads. There was a coal train at the Timonium show and the coal was very sparkly; I was told it was all real coal. I knew a retired policeman in Syracuse who had build a basement layout and he has build working coal loaders and rotary coal dumpers (using Switch master slow motors to turn them). He could load coal into his coal cars and then dump them at another location. Pretty cool stuff. Of course he didn't have rotary couplers so had to separate the coal cars and push them into the rotary dumper one at a time. It's a risk with ANY dust, sugar, flour, coffee creamer, etc... be careful out there with dust. |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 9, 2016 11:33:01 GMT -8
It's a risk with ANY dust, sugar, flour, coffee creamer, etc... be careful out there with dust. Basically chemistry principles 101. The reason my high school teacher did that rice hull dust scenario was to demonstrate the chemical that, the more surface area you have of a substance - the faster a chemical reaction takes place. He just happened to be using the powdered rice hulls in that class. After that I went on to earn a BS & MS in science which included a year of standard chemistry and after that Physical Chemistry and Organic Chemistry. I thought about being a chem major but ultimately settled on geology which used a lot of chemistry. BTW, those real coal loads I saw at the train show sure looked nice! |
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 9, 2016 14:50:40 GMT -8
It's a risk with ANY dust, sugar, flour, coffee creamer, etc... be careful out there with dust. Basically chemistry principles 101. The reason my high school teacher did that rice hull dust scenario was to demonstrate the chemical that, the more surface area you have of a substance - the faster a chemical reaction takes place. He just happened to be using the powdered rice hulls in that class. After that I went on to earn a BS & MS in science which included a year of standard chemistry and after that Physical Chemistry and Organic Chemistry. I thought about being a chem major but ultimately settled on geology which used a lot of chemistry. BTW, those real coal loads I saw at the train show sure looked nice! Awesome. Nothing looks more like the real thing than the real thing.  |
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ac4400
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Post by ac4400 on Jul 4, 2022 10:09:50 GMT -8
Do or did Union Pacific have (had) double rotary coalporters?
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Jul 4, 2022 10:16:35 GMT -8
Double rotary couplers are only necessary if you have something coupled to both ends while unloading. Their use decreased after cabooses went away, so they aren't as common in aluminum cars, but they came somewhat back into favor with the growth in DPU use.
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Post by mammoth on Jul 4, 2022 10:50:59 GMT -8
Sometimes there are double ended rotary couplers cars in the middle of unit trains.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jul 4, 2022 11:12:29 GMT -8
As an aside, that club I mentioned had about a 100% membership turnover, they decided to tear out and replace their 1970s era layout, and the coal dumper? A friend tells me that instead of say, sawing it out and selling it, it got wrecked. Oh well.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jul 4, 2022 11:15:12 GMT -8
Sometimes there are double ended rotary couplers cars in the middle of unit trains. depends how the train is set up..... CP tends to run their coal trains from Southern BC to Robert's Bank 1+1+1 or 2+1+1 with mid and tail DPUs, so every train has two double rotary cars. One right behind the head end power, and the second right behind the mid train DP unit. On all the cars other than the double rotary cars, the rotary end of each car faces towards the rear of the train. They also run coal trains East from British Columbia to the port of Thunder Bay on Lake Superior with 1+1+1 power, but those trains don't have double rotary cars as they they split the train in pieces before unloading. Those trains also tend to use the classic CP Rail bathtub gons from the 70s, and I'm not even sure if those cars had a double rotary version. CN also tends to run DP'd trains, but they are not nearly as picky about where it goes. Pretty much as long as it is somewhere between the head end and the DP, wherever it happens to be. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 4, 2022 11:54:29 GMT -8
Do or did Union Pacific have (had) double rotary coalporters? It appears they did not. When they did/do need one, one source appears to be rental of PGEX double rotaries. Specifically PGEX 6 and PGEX 9. Ed |
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Post by mammoth on Jul 4, 2022 17:32:41 GMT -8
Talking about the BNSF coal trains that go though Denver with double ended hoppers
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Post by drolsen on Jul 4, 2022 19:56:41 GMT -8
Sometimes there are double ended rotary couplers cars in the middle of unit trains. Yes, that will sometimes happen when blocks of cars are connected together. I think a lot of utility gons were bought in 100-110 car sets, but those got broken up over time, and unit coal trains are longer now. Different blocks of cars aren’t always facing the same direction, so they put a double rotary between them to make up a train. Or at least that’s how I’ve heard it explained. Dave |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 5, 2022 5:46:34 GMT -8
Here's a shot of the earlier mentioned PGEX 6 in service on the UP at Hinckle, OR:  And here's multiple shots of Athearn's version, from ATH97007:  It was a set of 5 cars, and clearly PGEX 6 was only one of the five. Or not. If the latter is the case, it should be pretty easy to find one. Ed |
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ac4400
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Post by ac4400 on Jul 5, 2022 7:15:39 GMT -8
Thank you for the answers and photo.
Did de PGEX double rotary ride in a train with PGEX Bethgons, or in a train with UP/CMO Bethgons?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 5, 2022 7:59:31 GMT -8
Thank you for the answers and photo. Did de PGEX double rotary ride in a train with PGEX Bethgons, or in a train with UP/CMO Bethgons? Don't know. And, of course, was it "never" or "ever"? Meaning: If you can find a photo or video of an example, what does that imply about all other similar trains. That said, it still appears to me the UP had no double rotary Bethgons. Why not? Because they didn't think they needed them: because they didn't use DPU's at the time, and so didn't need a double rotary in a train or they were going to run them in a train with cars that already included a double rotary, and saw no need to add another or they were planning on using a different "brand" of car that they already had, and it was a double rotary or they figured they had a source for such a car, and could rent it (PGEX, for example) If I had some of the Athearn cars, and wanted to run a train, I'd likely not be using DPU's, so I could just stack the Bethgons behind the locomotives (rotary end forward). No double rotary needed. Ed |
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ac4400
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Post by ac4400 on Jul 5, 2022 21:15:31 GMT -8
In april 2022 (eta 2023) Athearn announced new Bethgons with 'retooled bodies'.
I'm very excited with that announcement, but I wonder what the main differences will be to their current Bethgons.
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Post by nstophat on Jul 6, 2022 3:49:04 GMT -8
In april 2022 (eta 2023) Athearn announced new Bethgons with 'retooled bodies'. I'm very excited with that announcement, but I wonder what the main differences will be to their current Bethgons. Hopefully the interior cross bracing will be modified so that side connectors of the top of the braces match the locations of the angle brackets on the outside ribs. |
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Post by kpack on Jul 7, 2022 11:02:45 GMT -8
In april 2022 (eta 2023) Athearn announced new Bethgons with 'retooled bodies'. I'm very excited with that announcement, but I wonder what the main differences will be to their current Bethgons. The new tooling will probably get rid of the massive mold parting line on the sides of the tubs. They should be smooth there but instead there is a large ridge. I've been scraping them off with a flat blade, then touching up the paint and applying new decals. A bit of a pain, but it does look better. I would also hope that they would improve the interior bracing. Some cars have only two braces located in different spots, many of the newer ones have five. I've replicated this to an extent, but it's not perfect. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about:  The Athearn car as it stands is not a bad model. I really like it, but there are some improvements that could be made. However, with a bit of work and some weathering they really do make great models.  -Kevin |
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Post by nstophat on Jul 8, 2022 14:49:25 GMT -8
The new tooling will probably get rid of the massive mold parting line on the sides of the tubs. They should be smooth there but instead there is a large ridge. I've been scraping them off with a flat blade, then touching up the paint and applying new decals. A bit of a pain, but it does look better. I would also hope that they would improve the interior bracing. Some cars have only two braces located in different spots, many of the newer ones have five. I've replicated this to an extent, but it's not perfect. Here's a picture of what I'm talking about: The Athearn car as it stands is not a bad model. I really like it, but there are some improvements that could be made. However, with a bit of work and some weathering they really do make great models. -Kevin This is a modeling forum, not a prototype forum...Come on, get with the game.... |
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Post by pokeytoaster on Jul 13, 2022 19:32:24 GMT -8
I use live loads loaded with a loadout and emptied in a rotary dumper. For coal, I use walnut blast media, ground up walnut shells, that I dyed black with Rit dye. I was watching trains on Bozeman pass a couple years ago and saw one of the old Pullman Standard steel hoppers in a train of aluminum gondolas. It was the double rotary and looked very out of place. The BN had PS (HO model by Tangent) double rotaries but no Bethlehem (HO by Walthers) double rotaries.
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