Another vent...Mismatched colors

[kcjones]

I know that there are several different shades of Santa Fe red or Conrail blue; even on the prototype. I know that colors will vary between manufacturers. But for the love of Pete, can somebody please tell me why a company can't be consistent with colors on the same equipment? I will praise those that have gone back and corrected screw ups, but......case in point. Back in the day I purchased an A-B-B-A set of E8's from Walthers in IC brown and orange. It wan't long before they started to release their passenger cars in IC as well. Well what do you know? The colors don't match. The brown is close enough but the orange is way off. The orange on the E's is much lighter. All of my passenger cars are a perfect match. Even the heavyweight. Would it be so hard for Walther's to re-release the E's in the correct colors? I still have a glimmer of hope that the "City" or "Panama" will be one of their name trains someday. But I ain't getting any younger!!

JL
Arkansas Valley

[Paul Cutler III]

Part of the problem is that many railroads don't have historical groups that offer paint chips to manufacturers. I know the NHRHTA produced a color chip book at big expense that was created from the original DuPont formulas, and this book as been offered to every manufacturer of NH items. I also know the PRR guys have done something similar, but far more in depth. So with NH and PRR, the colors are done correctly...or at least consistantly since the book was created.

With the IC, maybe they don't have a chip book, so the first thing that was painted was wrong and they "fixed" the later items...and now they don't match? Just a guess.

The other part is when in the process something is painted. A color can change quite a bit depending on the undercoat (or lack thereof). So if the cars are painted all the dark color first, then the lighter, it will show up a certain way. If the lighter color was painted first on something else, then the darker, it will show up differently. That's on the manufacturer to do that consistently.

[jonklein611]

Even the same exact model, coming from different production runs will have some variance. The tone of the base plastic could be slightly different, slight difference in the pigments, different paint provider, the list goes on and on. There's the possibility that colors do match under a specific lighting condition, but in other lighting conditions it no longer matches.

[edwardsutorik]

The question does arise whether, if your first model's paint colors are wrong, should you keep going "wrong" or should you correct the problem and generate a mismatch.

Walthers, for example, has the GN's Empire Builder colors wrong. The orange is too red and the striping is a bright yellow instead of imitation gold. They started that way, and they have continued that way.

On the other hand, Walthers, as I recall, did a bunch of NYC passenger cars. And then they did the Twentieth Century in a more correct scheme. So they obviously go either way.

But, to one of JL's points, I endorse the re-issue of corrected colors on equipment. The P2K RF&P E's from way back are wrong. It would be nice to see a corrected run. It would also be nice to see Walthers do some of the GN F's in correct colors. I've got a very nice correctly painted Empire Builder that doesn't have any GN F's to pull it. For awhile, anyway, it's going to be pulled by CB&Q E's, where there's no chance of a color mismatch.


Ed

[dharris]

The answer is easy. Different factories in China. Or different runs at different times in the same factory. With slightly different paint formulas.
UP Yellow comes to mind as variable. Rock Island Blue. Anything orange. It also depends on the plastic underneath.

[lvrr325]

I can set out about 10 different Lehigh Valley diesels all in the late red scheme and they don't match each other. Even some from the same manufacturer.

The only difference here is the real ones didn't necessarily match depending on who painted them and where, either.

[edwardsutorik]

Nov 5, 2016 18:02:56 GMT -8 dharris said:

The answer is easy. Different factories in China. Or different runs at different times in the same factory. With slightly different paint formulas.
UP Yellow comes to mind as variable. Rock Island Blue. Anything orange. It also depends on the plastic underneath.

There is a concept called paint matching. In fact, my local hardware store has a machine that does an incredible job.

The only excuse I can come up with for a paint "mis-match" is caused by the level of gloss. The more glossy a finish is, the richer and sorta darker the colors look, even if they are exactly the same color.

Other than that, it's people not doing their job.



Ed

[kcjones]

Ed. As always, thanks for your words of wisdom. I remember back in the day when Rivarossi was about the only game in town for full length cars. And the best thing was that everything matched. You could buy their cars in sets of four and their E's matched as well. Their colors were wrong on most of the sets, but at least everything matched. I caught hell for that as well. 30 years ago, I custom painted a set of Athearn PA's for a customer in the Mopac "Eagle". Of course I painted them to match the Riv. Mopac "Eagle" cars. Big mistake. Units were returned with a note about how the colors were all wrong. Yea...but they matched the Riv. cars perfectly. Whole train ended up on the club layout.

JL

[Paul Cutler III]

Ed,
That paint matching at the hardware store doesn't always work. I wanted some NH Serial #13 Pullman Green paint mixed up for me so I could paint some advertising displays for the NHRHTA. I have my official paint chip, which is about 2/3rds of a 8.5x11" sheet, and I took it in. The fancy color matching computer could not match the paint. The reason? There were so many colors that it had to add that it would not fit in the can. It didn't matter if it was a pint or a gallon, it simply would not fit.

[bdhicks]

On the other hand, I go out of my way to make sure my Minnesota Commercial models don't match, since they only recently started using a consistent shade of red.

[edwardsutorik]

Paul,

It looks like it COULD match the paint. It just WOULDN'T. 'Cause of the can size. Clearly not the brightest machine in the world, as you can always put 1 1/2 quarts in a gallon can.


Ed,

Who went to college, and knows more than certain un-named machines.

[Paul Cutler III]

Ed,
When you get a can of paint to be colored it's not empty to begin with. It already has paint (usually white) into which the paint matching machine puts in various colors to get the color match. With NH Serial #13 Pullman Green, the machine had to add so many spurts of various colors that it would have overfilled the remaining capacity of the paint can. And because whoever programmed the machine realized that overfilling a paint can would be a tad messy, it won't allow any paint matching that overflows a paint can. Pretty smart for a dumb machine.

[Chet]

I would look at the prototype locomotives. They always look great when they are delivered to the railroad, but after a few years, the paint will fade. Put a new locomotive next to one that has been in service for a while, the colors will change. Some colors have a tendency to fade more than others. Red and orange are probably the worst. I grew up with the Milwaukee Road and fading was a normal thing.

[jonklein611]

Keep in mind, hardware store paint matching is done with the assumption you're apply to either primer / drywall / white paint. If you take your color matched paint and try to cover a wall that was blue, you'll get a different result.

On a model, if the base plastic color shifts, then anything applied to it paint wise will show that.

Again, it may match under specific lighting conditions, just not the ones you model.

[edwardsutorik]

If one is talking about commercially produced models, i believe it's far easier to fade a fresh paint job than to "unfade" it. So I would advocate for offering a model in the freshly painted version. IF the maker is only offering it in one "color".

Now, Athearn has started offering some rolling stock in faded colors. For instance, I've got a recent BNSF patched BN GP50. And am very happy with it. The green is clearly faded and is appropriate. It still needs a bit of weathering, but it's just gorgeous. As a model. As a prototype, it's looking like it's approaching the need for a repaint.

But dealing with appropriate fading doesn't handle the problem of a clear color mis-match. Especially when you're trying to model what you think of is a class act: the premier lightweight train of your favorite railroad: I expect the vast majority of modelers want all their cars and locos to match. And being actually correct is a huge plus, too.


Ed

[edwardsutorik]

Nov 8, 2016 7:58:40 GMT -8 jonklein611 said:

Keep in mind, hardware store paint matching is done with the assumption you're apply to either primer / drywall / white paint. If you take your color matched paint and try to cover a wall that was blue, you'll get a different result.

On a model, if the base plastic color shifts, then anything applied to it paint wise will show that.

Again, it may match under specific lighting conditions, just not the ones you model.

Yes, quite true. But remember that the subject of this topic is commercially available models. And since those are done by true professionals, they can shift the color of the paint to account for show-through. Or apply primer. They even can choose the color of the base plastic.

Also with varying lighting conditions: that's up to those same professionals. I surely hope they aren't making their color choices under fluorescents for the locos and sunlight for the passenger cars.


Ed

[tony]

Here's another color match problem I haven't seen mentioned much.

Santa Blue-Yellow freight locomotives - Generally, the blue looks good, the masked yellow looks good too.
However, the yellow pad printing with only one press many times is not opaque enough to match the painted yellow.
Then the cabs - the yellow is lighter in hue because I believe in some cases the cab is painted yellow directly on grey plastic and the shell may have the yellow applied over the blue.
Basically it's backwards in terms of darker colors over lighter ones, but in the case of China, it probably the ease of masking that is causes this.

[fr8kar]

Tony, you've just described the reason I have so few Santa Fe models. I once had dozens. I painted almost all of them as a teenager and sold them in my late twenties. Now that high quality models are available, I'd like to get some more. Unfortunately, the manufacturers get the details right but can't seem to get the finish consistent across the model for Santa Fe yellow, exactly as you describe. Until I feel like masking warbonnets again (and I'm nowhere near feeling like that again), I will have few Santa Fe models.

[Deleted]

Agreed. I was once a Santa Fe modeler, but was dissatisfied with many of the available blue and yellow factory paint jobs for the reasons stated above. Athearn of course has great Santa Fe paint jobs but then has issues in other areas.

This was all part of the reason I eventually gravitated toward steam power.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Nov 6, 2016 18:36:48 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Paul,

It looks like it COULD match the paint. It just WOULDN'T. 'Cause of the can size. Clearly not the brightest machine in the world, as you can always put 1 1/2 quarts in a gallon can.


Ed,

Who went to college, and knows more than certain un-named machines.

When I was painting cars, 1:1, and restoring Tonka Toy trucks that is exactly what I would do, I'd get a pint of, say Omaha Orange for a Tonka Highway truck, and have them put it in a quart can. They would even put it into a spray can for you if you wished. This was a commercial automotive paint supply.

I have a son in law that manages the paint dept of a Menard's store. I'll have to ask him of what they might do. I have had paints mixed at his store and hardware, Ace, stores and can see where the problem might happen as they all start with a nearly full can of base color.

[edwardsutorik]

Dec 1, 2016 6:09:22 GMT -8 @texasandpacific said:

Agreed. I was once a Santa Fe modeler, but was dissatisfied with many of the available blue and yellow factory paint jobs for the reasons stated above. Athearn of course has great Santa Fe paint jobs but then has issues in other areas.

This was all part of the reason I eventually gravitated toward steam power.

Here's the route I went to resolve the issue:







Ed

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2016 15:27:41 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

Tony, you've just described the reason I have so few Santa Fe models. I once had dozens. I painted almost all of them as a teenager and sold them in my late twenties. Now that high quality models are available, I'd like to get some more. Unfortunately, the manufacturers get the details right but can't seem to get the finish consistent across the model for Santa Fe yellow, exactly as you describe. Until I feel like masking warbonnets again (and I'm nowhere near feeling like that again), I will have few Santa Fe models.

When I did a few ATSF blue & yellow "bookends" / "pinstripe" units back in the late 70s I had to double-up the yellow decals to get the color to match the paint.

[roadkill]

Nov 30, 2016 11:29:04 GMT -8 tony said:

Here's another color match problem I haven't seen mentioned much.

Santa Blue-Yellow freight locomotives - Generally, the blue looks good, the masked yellow looks good too.
However, the yellow pad printing with only one press many times is not opaque enough to match the painted yellow.
Then the cabs - the yellow is lighter in hue because I believe in some cases the cab is painted yellow directly on grey plastic and the shell may have the yellow applied over the blue.
Basically it's backwards in terms of darker colors over lighter ones, but in the case of China, it probably the ease of masking that is causes this.

That there is why I loved the old AccuPaint and AccuCals. Painted up quite a few Santa Fe diesels back in the '80's and early '90s and their decals and paint were a perfect match.