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Post by riogrande on Jun 1, 2017 7:11:12 GMT -8
I've wanted to get a better handle on the usage of 85' TOFC flat cars in the 1970's and beyond as it is a topic of interest to me and others. I have had a chance to review a number photo's on RR-FallenFlags (RRFF), RailCarPhotos (RCF) and DRGW.net so far. The most reliable photo source has been RailCarPhoto's because the pictures include data such as length, builder, photo dates and much more. Here are some examples with photo date of 85' flat cars pre-1982 (before 45' trailers started in widespread TOFC service): - 2/1979 brown 85' TTX Bethlehem flat (RCF) with two 40' trailers - 3/1980 yellow 85' TTX ACF flat car (RCF) with two 40' trailers - 3/1981 yellow 85' TTX ACF flat car (RCF) with two 40' trailers - 8/1978 brown 85' TTX PS "straight sill" flat car (RRFF) with two 40' trailers - 7/1974 brown 85' TTX PS "straight sill" flat car (RRFF) with wrecked flat car as load - 2/1977 brown 85' SP Bethlehem flat car (RCF) lumber load - 8/1977 black 85' SP General American flat car (RCF) two 40' trailers - 10/1977 red 85' ATSF General American flat car (RCF) two 40' trailers - 7/1978 red 85' ATSF PS "fishbelly" flat car (RCF) single 40' trailer. It looks like pre-45' trailer era, there was a fairly high rate of brown TTX TOFC flat cars still in use, which some have alluded to in past forum posts. I also found some photo's of 85' flat cars in the mid-1980's in TOFC service; this may be due to the fact that they could carry a 45' trailer along with a 40' trailers. - 10/1986 yellow 85' TTX ACF flat car (RCF) with single 45' trailer (container) - 10/1987 yellow 85' TTX PS flat car (RCF) with single 45' trailer - 8/1986 yellow 85' TTX ACF flat car (RCF) empty - 9/1986 yellow 85' TTX PS flat car (RCF) with single 45' trailer - 7/1984 yellow 85' TTX ACF flat car (RCF) with single 45' trailer - 8/1986 yellow 85' TTX flat car (RRFF) with two 40' trailers - 7/2009 yellow possible 85' flat car with telephone poll load and metal retaining racks (interesting modern photo) These photo's found mostly from the mid-1980' show 85' flat cars were still being used in TOFC service, although probably not all that common by then. I also was able to check a few hi-res photo's posted from a series taken by Chuck Conway in the 1970's, mostly 1974-1979 and found brown TOFC flat cars were quite common. Here is a link to a photo 2/1977 with a brown 85' PS flat car with two Fruit Growers Express trailers www.drgw.net/gallery/v/PhotographersGallery/PGClassic/CConway/CCWestoftheMoffat/01426_Winter_Park_2_77.jpg.html Here is a link to a photo from the same batch with yellow 85' PS flat with 40' UPS trailers www.drgw.net/gallery/v/PhotographersGallery/PGClassic/CConway/CCWestoftheMoffat/3108_winter_Park.jpg.html Here is a link to a photo also from the same batch; out of six TOFC flat cars visible, it looks like three of them are yellow 85' PS flat cars, all with 40' trailers. www.drgw.net/gallery/v/PhotographersGallery/PGClassic/CConway/CCWestoftheMoffat/drgw_3114_tabernash_co_sep_1976_000_3255x2102.jpg.html From the Conway 1970's photo's at DRGW.net showing identifiable TOFC flat cars, it seems like roughly half of the flat cars visible appear to be 85' long. Granted, that's a small sample statistically but enough for me to get a sense that 85' flat cars indeed were common during the mid-1970's time period. From what I'm seeing, the vast majority were Trailer Train flat cars. Based on the additional photographic information, I've gone ahead and added several more Athearn 85' PS flat cars in brown and yellow to my fleet. Also, since brown TOFC flat cars still seemed to be relatively common, I've beefed up my brown Genesis F89F fleet up now to three this year; I only had a single before. The 1970's still could use a few more missing models I'd like to see manufacturers produce: - 85' Pullman Standard "early phase" F85B (TTX brown & yellow) with the "fishbelly" side sill profile. This car appears to be very common in photo's and much needed and covers 1959 thru mid 1980's! - 85' Bethlehem TOFC flat car TTX brown and yellow - 85' ACF TOFC flat car TTX brown and yellow - 85 and 89' General American thin sill TOFC flat car Some have mentioned an Evans TOFC flat car as well. Cheers, Jim Fitch
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 1, 2017 8:34:33 GMT -8
Jim,
Thanks for sharing your research. And, yup, it would be good to see other versions of trailer flats besides what we have now.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Jun 1, 2017 8:53:50 GMT -8
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Post by riogrande on Jun 1, 2017 10:41:40 GMT -8
I'm not sure why the links in the previous post broke, they were working for a while. Maybe bandwidth limitations on RCF site.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jun 1, 2017 10:53:26 GMT -8
Jim, The website in question my automatically detect "hotlinking" and change the address of the photos in question. I'm looking for a G-85 TOFC for my NH trains of the 1960's. SP had a small group of them before lengthening them to 89 feet: www.carrtracks.com/sppg01.htmGo through the pages of the booklet to see some examples.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 1, 2017 11:52:01 GMT -8
I replaced the hot links with the links. Weird thing is I put the links back in fresh and they work. The old ones didn't work after taking away the hot link syntax but they looked exactly the same as far as I could see.
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Post by dreadnought on Jun 1, 2017 12:17:52 GMT -8
Hmm, cars you want manufactured, you say?
I'd like to look into it, but I've already got my hands full setting up the Lima LS-1000/1200 and possibly Boulevard Models (which is what my resin car kit company would be called). After that, I might look into producing that early PS F85B as a kit. I might link that up with some 40' or 45' trailer kits as well.
Regards, Dreadnought
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Post by GP40P-2 on Jun 1, 2017 16:02:48 GMT -8
You got the GATX built (GTTX) cars on your list in 85' and 89' versions, good call. There was that Sierra Car & Foundry "warp-a-matic" resin kit for them in the early 90's, but even if one could be found, it is likely unusable, after 25+ years of flowing resin.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jun 2, 2017 12:57:11 GMT -8
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Jun 2, 2017 13:10:37 GMT -8
You got the GATX built (GTTX) cars on your list in 85' and 89' versions, good call. There was that Sierra Car & Foundry "warp-a-matic" resin kit for them in the early 90's, but even if one could be found, it is likely unusable, after 25+ years of flowing resin. Is that literally true? Are there aging problems with resin?
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Post by GP40P-2 on Jun 2, 2017 15:45:34 GMT -8
You got the GATX built (GTTX) cars on your list in 85' and 89' versions, good call. There was that Sierra Car & Foundry "warp-a-matic" resin kit for them in the early 90's, but even if one could be found, it is likely unusable, after 25+ years of flowing resin. Is that literally true? Are there aging problems with resin? There seems to be a generational thing with resin, maybe pre-1990 and post 1990. Early resin didn't always perform well. SC&F was the worst. I have had early Westerfield become very brittle and chemical "seepage" on some Roller Bearing Models. Later Westerfield, Sunshine, Rail Yard Models, Wright Track have all been fine.
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Post by champagnetrail on Jun 3, 2017 16:15:32 GMT -8
The collection of Erie Lackawanna freight train consists (a.k.a wheel reports), collected from the 1972 and 1976 time frame, contains about 4100 intermodal flats. Of that number, the breakdown is roughly two-thirds 89-footers and one-third 85-footers. So, there were plenty of 85' intermodal flats still in use at the dawn of Conrail, before 45' trailers became the standard, at least on the EL. And, yes, A LOT of them were still in the original brown paint in 1976.
The interesting thing is that so far, we really only have ONE model of an 85-ft intermodal flat!!! After all these years, the one and only remains the old Athearn "blue box" model, which is nominally a late phase Trailer Train class F85b, and not a very detailed one at that. (Note that I don't count the old Athearn "All-Purpose" flat because there were no 85-ft flush-deck cars built.) In the EL consist sheets, the F85b is the most common 85-ft flat, but there are other classes that number in the hundreds. One wonders why none of the other model makers will touch an 85-ft flat? Why not have a highly-detailed model of an early flat if a third of the flats running around in the mid-70s were still 85-ft long? The F85a and F85c cars were nearly as common, and the General American-built G85 and G85a were also numerous, and much more distinctive.
-pat
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 3, 2017 22:12:53 GMT -8
I picked up an old Walthers kit that seems to be resin and appears stable. It has to be 80s era at the newest. Some of the parts look to be directly copied from Athearn pieces. But then I wouldn't be surprised if resin stability can vary right down to the individual batch being used.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 4, 2017 2:33:13 GMT -8
Pat, thanks for posting the info from the Erie wheel reports. The ratio of 85' to 89' flat cars seems a good match from what Im seeing in the Conway photos. As you noted, the Athearn flush deck all purpose 85' flat cars originally produced as blue box kits should be 89' as the prototypes were.
We really could use models of several 85' flat cars, especially the PS F85A "fishbelly", ACF and GA flats.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 4, 2017 4:22:52 GMT -8
I've found some photo's of ACF in RailCarPhoto's (do a search with TTX as the reporting marks and Flat Car COFC/TOFC as the two search terms) and there is a photo of an ACF 85' flat car with side guards. Interestingly when Athearn was showing test shots of their upcoming Genesis channel side TOFC flat cars at a train show, the showed a car which looked remarkably like the phototype in the rail car photo's. www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=60373These are a blurry but you can see Athearn has made test shots of a flat car with the side guards shown by John Engstrom when he came to Chantilly VA about 5 or 6 years ago
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Post by mrsocal on Jun 4, 2017 5:46:07 GMT -8
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Post by riogrande on Jun 4, 2017 14:16:01 GMT -8
Here is some additional information/data on 85' flat cars posted over at MRH forums:
Posted at MRH forums:
Sun, 2017-06-04 12:49 — ctown2gn19
So after crunching some numbers I figured out the percentage of 85' flats to total flats owned by TTX. This includes 60', 87' 89', 48', 75'. Of the 53339 cars that TTX owned, 12891 of them were 85' flats as of April 1970. Now this number is sure to change after April, as the ORER's are published quarterly. So 10 years later in 1980, the numbers maybe completely different. That said, here's the complete listing of all 85' flat road numbers according to the ORER. This does not mean that all of these 85' flats were used in container/trailer service either.
Hope this helps.
Craig
Special notes BTTX bilevel service
CTTX equipped with container adapters, trailer hitches and bridge plates,
GTTX hitches and bridge plates, built by General American Transportation Company
JTTX specially modified with miscellaneous devices
MTTX 16 stake pockets for long pipe (8 per side)
RTTX trilevel racks
TTX hitches and bridge plates for trailers
ZTTX 30 stake pockets (15 per side) for long poles
BTTX 100130 TO 101657 474337 TO 474945 476371 TO 476799 477004 TO 477270 478001 TO 478408 CTTX 473002 TO 477257 477352 TO 477364 477406 477411 TO 477506 477522 TO 479239 479325 TO 479433 GTTX 300000 TO 300313 300314 TO 300328 300329 TO 300613 300614 TO 300759 300760 TO 300769 300770 TO 301394 301395 TO 301494 301495 TO 301922 301923 TO 301947 301948 TO 302347 JTTX 100218 TO 100825 472533 474200 TO 474548 474552 TO 474652 474644 474685 TO 474704 474744 477098 TO 477705 MTTX 474564 TO 474982 100230 TO 102061 476609 TO 476999 477184 TO 477711 478011 TO 650941 RTTX 100253 TO 101646 474501 TO 474960 476610 TO 476844 477099 TO 477716 478059 TO 478474 479483 TO 479498 TTX 100000 TO 100330 100331 100333 TO 102287 102288 TO 102506 102507 TO 1026050 102606 TO 102776 471300 TO 471399 472000 TO 472999 473000 TO 473178 473179 473180 TO 473219 473220 473221 TO 473299 473300 473301 TO 473448 473449 473459 TO 473896 473897 473898 TO 474009 474010 474011 TO 474339 474340 474341 TO 474999 476000 TO 476997 477001 TO 477211 477213, 477214 477215 TO 477217 477218 477220 TO 477231 477232 477235 TO 477258 477259 477260 TO 477999 478000 TO 478999 479000 TO 479326 479321 TO 479356 479357 TO 479366 479367 TO 479481 479482 TO 479500 479501 479502 TO 479809 479810 TO 479844 650000 TO 650547 650548 TO 650798 650823 TO 650956 ZTTX 100226 TO 100779 650799 TO 650822
TOTAL 85’ FLATS = 12891
~ 24% OF ALL FLATS
Total of all kinds of flats owned by Trailer Train = 53339
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Post by riogrande on Jun 5, 2017 10:04:59 GMT -8
The Athearn "Blue Box" 85' TOFC car (I believe there was also a non-TOFC 85' "Blue Box" flat car?) is a 1961/1962 PS prototype. From what I've read on the N-scale blog, the Pullman Standard 85' TOFC cars built in 1958 and 1959 have the "fishbelly" side sill, while those manufactured in 1960 and after had the straight side sill. That is born out in the photo's where build dates are available including the Canadian Freight Car photos. That being the case, the Athearn TOFC 85' flat car is a 1960 and later PS version. Athearn has produced both blue box and RTR versions (which have improved swing coupler boxes and are closer to prototypical height. I just bought a couple of the brown RTR version I found from a run a few years ago: www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH93673www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH93674The most recent run (2016) has NAFX, WP, WM, CO SF, and GN, and so far I haven't been able to find an direct matches for any of them; some or all may be fantasy. The Canadian site has NAFX photo's and C&O but they appear to be all "fishbelly" PS pre-1960 flat cars; same with WM. The previous run from 2015 included PFE, SP, TTX brn, TTX, yellow, EL and NdeM. THe PFE appears to have owned ACF made cars according to Railgoat and SP had ACF and GA cars. www.railgoat.railfan.net/spcars/bytype/flat/sp_flat_85.htmEL may have had the Athearn car and TTX versions appear to match. As always it is good to research before buying to avoid fantasy models although some folks are ok with "stand-in"s in the absence of any correct models, in some cases. I only have one blue box kit built 85' flat car left (brown TT) which I'll keep and practice weathering on. I've got a couple RTR flat cars I bought with trailers; both I bought for the UPS 40' drop frame trailers - one is this F85B (yellow TT) and the other happened to be a foobie flush deck TASD flat car. TASD did have flush decks but they were 89' not 85'. I needed the yellow end trailers so not sure if I'll keep the foobie or not. I didn't have time until now but have searched through the photo's and that is a great resource for as delivered photo's. Very nice! I think I found that SOO car you mentioned. It looks like brown TT are very common still in the mid-1970's and some probably lasted well into the 1980's in brown. Athearn lists the yellow TT version as 1978 but I'm not sure that is correct. The yellow TT paint scheme was introduced in 1970 according to the TTX Corporation site (history); rail cars manufactured from that point on were painted in yellow and over time, the mineral red fleet were repainted into yellow as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the F85B PS flat cars began getting repainted before 1978 but only photographs or official documentation can prove it.
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Post by sp8299 on Jun 5, 2017 12:59:49 GMT -8
The Athearn "Blue Box" 85' TOFC car (I believe there was also a non-TOFC 85' "Blue Box" flat car?) is a 1961/1962 PS prototype. From what I've read on the N-scale blog, the Pullman Standard 85' TOFC cars built in 1958 and 1959 have the "fishbelly" side sill, while those manufactured in 1960 and after had the straight side sill. That is born out in the photo's where build dates are available including the Canadian Freight Car photos. That being the case, the Athearn TOFC 85' flat car is a 1960 and later PS version. Athearn has produced both blue box and RTR versions (which have improved swing coupler boxes and are closer to prototypical height. I just bought a couple of the brown RTR version I found from a run a few years ago: www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH93673www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH93674The most recent run (2016) has NAFX, WP, WM, CO SF, and GN, and so far I haven't been able to find an direct matches for any of them; some or all may be fantasy. The Canadian site has NAFX photo's and C&O but they appear to be all "fishbelly" PS pre-1960 flat cars; same with WM. The previous run from 2015 included PFE, SP, TTX brn, TTX, yellow, EL and NdeM. THe PFE appears to have owned ACF made cars according to Railgoat and SP had ACF and GA cars. www.railgoat.railfan.net/spcars/bytype/flat/sp_flat_85.htmEL may have had the Athearn car and TTX versions appear to match. As always it is good to research before buying to avoid fantasy models although some folks are ok with "stand-in"s in the absence of any correct models, in some cases. I only have one blue box kit built 85' flat car left (brown TT) which I'll keep and practice weathering on. I've got a couple RTR flat cars I bought with trailers; both I bought for the UPS 40' drop frame trailers - one is this F85B (yellow TT) and the other happened to be a foobie flush deck TASD flat car. TASD did have flush decks but they were 89' not 85'. I needed the yellow end trailers so not sure if I'll keep the foobie or not. I didn't have time until now but have searched through the photo's and that is a great resource for as delivered photo's. Very nice! I think I found that SOO car you mentioned. It looks like brown TT are very common still in the mid-1970's and some probably lasted well into the 1980's in brown. Athearn lists the yellow TT version as 1978 but I'm not sure that is correct. The yellow TT paint scheme was introduced in 1970 according to the TTX Corporation site (history); rail cars manufactured from that point on were painted in yellow and over time, the mineral red fleet were repainted into yellow as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the F85B PS flat cars began getting repainted before 1978 but only photographs or official documentation can prove it. Cars in Trailer Train/TTXs Oxide Red (a TTX employee set me straight on the proper terminology) scheme could be found well into the 2000s on some car types. There was at least one BSC F89F, and a few 60' equipment flats that lingered on in that scheme, in some cases patched with the 1991 TTX speed logo.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 5, 2017 13:34:22 GMT -8
Cars in Trailer Train/TTXs Oxide Red (a TTX employee set me straight on the proper terminology) scheme could be found well into the 2000s on some car types. There was at least one BSC F89F, and a few 60' equipment flats that lingered on in that scheme, in some cases patched with the 1991 TTX speed logo. Good point Paul on the terminology. I was just packing up a Genesis 89' channel side flat car and it was labeled Oxide Red on the box. I remember when Athearn ran these some years back, they included an Oxide Red flat car factory weathered to heck to represent one of those latter day hold outs. www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG29520BTW, Paul do you have any idea what happened to the flat car with the side guards I saw the test shot of (above?).
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Post by champagnetrail on Jun 7, 2017 12:24:58 GMT -8
Cars in Trailer Train/TTXs Oxide Red (a TTX employee set me straight on the proper terminology) scheme could be found well into the 2000s on some car types. There was at least one BSC F89F, and a few 60' equipment flats that lingered on in that scheme, in some cases patched with the 1991 TTX speed logo. Good point Paul on the terminology. I was just packing up a Genesis 89' channel side flat car and it was labeled Oxide Red on the box. I remember when Athearn ran these some years back, they included an Oxide Red flat car factory weathered to heck to represent one of those latter day hold outs. www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATHG29520BTW, Paul do you have any idea what happened to the flat car with the side guards I saw the test shot of (above?). Yeah, I'd be really interested to find out what happened to that project. We could use a Genesis quality 85' flat car! -pat
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Post by riogrande on Jun 7, 2017 12:56:23 GMT -8
Yeah, I'd be really interested to find out what happened to that project. We could use a Genesis quality 85' flat car! -pat This RCF picture appears to be the flat car which Athearn displayed mold tests of some years back in Chantilly VA: www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=47540According to the data, it's an F85B 85' flat car built by ACF in 1960. Visually it's a match. Athearn, whats the deal?
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Post by alcoc430 on Feb 9, 2018 11:30:55 GMT -8
Introducing WalthersMainline® HO Scale 85' General American G85 Flatcars! General American G85 Flatcars Walthers is excited to announce the all-new WalthersMainline 85' G85 Flatcar in HO scale! Based on a General American car built in the 1960s, prototypes handled trailers and containers from 1961 to the 1980s. The car appeared in passenger consists in the 1960s, and they were also used for general service loading into the late 2000s. Shown above is one of five different body configurations the car is available in. Each will be equipped with trailer hitches or container pedestals as appropriate. Seven different paint schemes are available in the first release, ATSF, GTTX (yellow), GTTX (brown), PC, REA Express, SP, VTTX, each adorning the body configuration appropriate per road. This is a completely new car from rails to deck that you're not going to want to miss. Be sure to check out the April 2018 Walthers Flyer for more information, or click here to pre-order your cars today! www.flickr.com/photos/129527414@N05/shares/03uQvDwww.walthers.com/search?q=walthersmainline%20G85&utm_source=exact_target&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=eupdate_020718&utm_term=eupdate_020718&utm_content=search%3Fq%3Dwalthersmainline%2BG85 Has anyone else made a G85 or is this will be the only one?
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Post by GP40P-2 on Feb 9, 2018 11:57:42 GMT -8
Nice!
Kind of wish it wasn't Walthers, however they have done a good job on a few of their recent offerings, so this may work out well.
Thanks for posting that!
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 9, 2018 12:08:46 GMT -8
Now, if we had the 35' containers to go on the thing.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 9, 2018 12:13:55 GMT -8
Thank God they didn't lose their heads and do it as a Proto. My World View remains stable.
Ed
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Feb 9, 2018 13:45:39 GMT -8
I've found some photo's of ACF in RailCarPhoto's (do a search with TTX as the reporting marks and Flat Car COFC/TOFC as the two search terms) and there is a photo of an ACF 85' flat car with side guards. Interestingly when Athearn was showing test shots of their upcoming Genesis channel side TOFC flat cars at a train show, the showed a car which looked remarkably like the phototype in the rail car photo's. www.railcarphotos.com/PhotoDetails.php?PhotoID=60373These are a blurry but you can see Athearn has made test shots of a flat car with the side guards shown by John Engstrom when he came to Chantilly VA about 5 or 6 years ago NO PICTURES due to PHOTOBUCKET !
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Post by riogrande on Feb 9, 2018 16:32:34 GMT -8
I'm pleased that someone is producing the General American G85 Flatcars, I'll be in for some.
Matt, they are on an old camera so I'll have to download them again, but basically they were test shots of 89' flat cars with the side guards. As it turned out, Athearn had tooled a flat car that didn't exist - the car with the side guards was an 85' car, not 89' so it was scrapped.
Yeah, gave up trying to search for future products and now rely on other posting announcements like this here or on MFCL.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2018 17:04:07 GMT -8
Thank God they didn't lose their heads and do it as a Proto. My World View remains stable. Ed What do you mean? Why would doing it in the proto line be bad? I'm going to guess price point. I know walthers likes to add quite a price hike on any cars with added grabirons/extra details could be the reasoning. I personally like walthers mainline. I hope they come out with many more cars, and I'm sure they will.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 9, 2018 17:23:20 GMT -8
Thank God they didn't lose their heads and do it as a Proto. My World View remains stable. Ed What do you mean? Why would doing it in the proto line be bad? Because my World View would then become un-stable: Walthers would be doing something I want in the way I want it. And I'm just not ready to integrate THAT. Ed
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