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Post by tony on Jan 11, 2018 16:28:15 GMT -8
If you have a minute please add your voice using this poll on Atlas models with Accumate couplers.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 11, 2018 16:39:55 GMT -8
Oh, man.
Where's the place where I say "I'm leaving them as-is indefinitely, 'cause I'm a lazy slug. But I'm GONNA put in Kadees. If I'm still alive when it's time to do the job."
Maybe it was too long to fit.
Ed
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Post by tony on Jan 11, 2018 16:52:28 GMT -8
I recently purchased a couple of the Atlas double door cars from MB Klein. I had forgotten that Altas is using these Accumates. I forgot how much I hate them and the mickey-mouse design the Chinese did on Atlas. Curious what others have to say because I think Atlas on the wrong track using these. A track that is out gauge and guaranteed to derail.
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Post by santafe49 on Jan 11, 2018 16:56:53 GMT -8
I change immediately to the appropriate Kadee coupler before the unit goes to work. that goes for any brand, of course unless Kadee's are original equipment.
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Post by stevewagner on Jan 11, 2018 16:57:02 GMT -8
Basically, I'm with Ed. I've made the change to Kadee on a number of the many Atlas cars I have that I care about the most. Ones that I'll eventually sell I probably won't make the change on.
And, on a related subject that I know has its own thread, I really do prefer Kadee's whisker couplers to the older type with the complicated, bent sheet brass -- I think that's what it is, not bronze -- centering spring. Over the years I've spent an awful lot of time and effort filing and cutting those to make them fit and function properly, and I'd rather not keep doing that.
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Post by valenciajim on Jan 11, 2018 17:41:38 GMT -8
I switch out all couplers to Kadees.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 17:57:55 GMT -8
I switch them out to whatever I have on hand before it ever gets on my layout. Usually it's a Kadee, but in a pinch I'll use anything else, and then never bother to re-swap it.
I think my favorite was when I bought a new in box Walthers superliner off eBay, and it came with accumate.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 11, 2018 18:24:18 GMT -8
I didn't answer the poll because none fit.
I can't honestly say yes to the first cause I haven't gotten around to it yet cause x, y or z.
I don't see the point in the second choice. Why change crappy Accumates out for something else crappy?
I don't plan to leave as is so third choice is no good.
Part of the reason I started the Kadee topic is I need to figure out and order appropriate Kadee couplers for my many Atlas freight cars, so I can choose the option in the poll that Ed alluded to. Replace them crappumates someday with Kadees.
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Post by Artur on Jan 11, 2018 18:33:29 GMT -8
I started replacing Kadee's and all others with Sergent couplers, I'm probably in the minority here.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 11, 2018 18:43:05 GMT -8
Probably. I read a topic on another forum and comments from several adopters of Sargent gave me an impression they are a hobby unto themself. Some really struggled with mastering the technique to building the kit version successfully.
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Post by wp8thsub on Jan 11, 2018 19:10:30 GMT -8
I replace with Kadee immediately. With some other plastic couplers I replace on failure, but I don't allow Accumate couplers into service at all. They tend to wedge open when slack runs in, causing unintended uncoupling, among other annoyances.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 11, 2018 19:10:49 GMT -8
There's no option for immediately changing them to Sergent couplers in the poll. Sergent couplers aren't Kadee compatible, though you can hook them to Kadees in a pinch.
Anyway, around here Kadees, Accumates and all the rest get tossed into a box when I install Sergent couplers.
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Post by nsfantodd on Jan 11, 2018 20:09:01 GMT -8
No option for me to vote. I use Sergent couplers.
Todd
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 11, 2018 22:44:59 GMT -8
The Accumate product has to be the worst coupler currently used by most quality manufacturers. A close second and third is the oversized number 5 by Proto and the plastic scale coupler used by Athearn.
I'm still an old dinosaur and use Kadee scale head whisker couplers.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jan 12, 2018 2:10:59 GMT -8
Another dinosaur here using Kadee semi-scale couplers exclusively (no #5's here). I've tried Sergents and like them, but my first focus right now is building a layout. Once it's operational I'll see about converting over, but it may well be a case of the Kadee's being good-enough.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 2:23:45 GMT -8
The Accumate product has to be the worst coupler currently used by most quality manufacturers. A close second and third is the oversized number 5 by Proto and the plastic scale coupler used by Athearn. I'm still an old dinosaur and use Kadee scale head whisker couplers. I thought dinosaurs used mostly the old #5 Kadee's. I guess I'm more of a dinosaur than you Jim Sargents do seem to be a niche, a cool niche but they don't seem practical if you run at clubs or modular layouts or have a boat load of cars, because you'd spend all your time and money on converting a big fleet. As for plastic couplers, I have far less running time than many here and but I've found the Athearn McHenry's cause the most issues, false uncouplings, getting stuck in the open position etc, far more than the Accumates. I don't like the Accumates more for their crude gross appearance and do plan to replace them all as I can get to it. Maybe a good project until the basement is finished.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 2:25:40 GMT -8
My impression is the scale heads Kadee's are the preferred coupler for most "progressive modelers" who have a lot of cars or need ability to run at clubs. So if scale head people are dinosaurs, then who are the up to date people?
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Post by John Sheridan on Jan 12, 2018 5:12:38 GMT -8
I use Kadee #148s on all my locomotives & rolling stock. I buy them by the 50 pair pack along with the #242 boxes.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jan 12, 2018 6:07:39 GMT -8
My impression is the scale heads Kadee's are the preferred coupler for most "progressive modelers" who have a lot of cars or need ability to run at clubs. So if scale head people are dinosaurs, then who are the up to date people? I presumed GN Jim ironically meant those still using Kadees instead of Sergents :-) Also, I don't think Sergent couplers are that expensive, but yes, converting will take quite a bit of time.
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Post by mrsocal on Jan 12, 2018 6:19:27 GMT -8
I change out all couplers to the appropriate # Kadee as needed for the model.I even cut and remove the glad hands at times to give it a more authentic look.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 6:33:17 GMT -8
I presumed GN Jim ironically meant those still using Kadees instead of Sergents :-) Also, I don't think Sergent couplers are that expensive, but yes, converting will take quite a bit of time. It would be interesting to know out of all model railroaders who are basically into the hobby for life, what percentage of them use (or even heard of) Sargent couplers. I've been wrong before, but I'll be it in the low single digits. Assuming I am in the ball park, then I'd say the average "progressive" HO model railroader is a scale head Kadee users, or is in the "process" of installing scale head on their fleet. The dinosaurs are likely those who are Kadee #5 and standard head Kadee users, or if you want a real dinosaur, someone who is still using horn hooks! I haven't priced Sargent. What would be the cost difference to say, outfit a fleet of 400 cars with Sargents vs. Kadee? I have read some feedback from some hobbyists who have been fitting cars with the kit version, and having issues getting them working properly and smoothly - apparently three is some step where you have to burnish or polish parts or there are issues getting Sargents to function well. There are, reportedly, fully assembled versions at a higher cost as well, or have been. For me, I've got too many fish to fry before I can every consider going in that direction! Mainly getting my fleet all converted to proper Kadees which, for the forseeable future, should work best for me.
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Post by roadkill on Jan 12, 2018 7:10:37 GMT -8
I swap out the Accucraps with Kadee scale whiskers pretty much as soon as I get a given model home.
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Post by peoriaman on Jan 12, 2018 7:36:54 GMT -8
I have read some feedback from some hobbyists who have been fitting cars with the kit version, and having issues getting them working properly and smoothly - apparently three is some step where you have to burnish or polish parts or there are issues getting Sargents to function well. The kits are easy to assemble using the Sergent assembly jig, but the problem I had was that although all the cars I converted worked fine on the test track, maybe a third of them malfunctioned on the layout some months later when I found time to run them. Stuck open, mostly. Probably my fault; I probably should have soaked the castings in Acetone or Goo-gone or some such solvent to remove any leftover mold-release oils, if there were any. I don't know. Factor in the dim lighting at my former club, and the appeal of them went away fast. I also thought it was unnecessary of Sergent to print Bible verses on the instruction sheets. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by Brakie on Jan 12, 2018 7:41:31 GMT -8
As far as the Accumates couplers I changed them out to KD 148s before placing the car in service. The only coupler I don't change out is Walthers Proto Max II since its a all metal coupler very similar to KD's #5 and works just as well.
I have no desire to use Sergent couplers since I prefer hands off uncoupling I get with Kids and magnets.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 7:57:04 GMT -8
I have read some feedback from some hobbyists who have been fitting cars with the kit version, and having issues getting them working properly and smoothly - apparently three is some step where you have to burnish or polish parts or there are issues getting Sargents to function well. The kits are easy to assemble using the Sergent assembly jig, but the problem I had was that although all the cars I converted worked fine on the test track, maybe a third of them malfunctioned on the layout some months later when I found time to run them. Stuck open, mostly. Probably my fault; I probably should have soaked the castings in Acetone or Goo-gone or some such solvent to remove any leftover mold-release oils, if there were any. I don't know. Factor in the dim lighting at my former club, and the appeal of them went away fast. I also thought it was unnecessary of Sergent to print Bible verses on the instruction sheets. Your mileage may vary. The things I have been reading from "hands on" users is that there is an important, critical step to burnish certain parts in the kit versions, or they have issues with them. From my vantage point, there is a "happy medium" in the continuum of trying to achieve realism. Where that point is on that continuum is different for all of us, but those after hyper realism (and the time and skills to pursue it) they may gravitate toward some of the more "specialized" niches in the hobby, like Proto 87, Sargent couplers and similar things. I can see the appeal for sure, but in practical terms, I feel like I've already bitten off more than I can actually chew so I have to leave some of those things for others and try to look at the bigger picture and what works for me.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 7:59:47 GMT -8
As far as the Accumates couplers I changed them out to KD 148s before placing the car in service. The only coupler I don't change out is Walthers Proto Max II since its a all metal coupler very similar to KD's #5 and works just as well. I have quite a few Kadee 5 and 148 already in stalled and they work as they should, and they couple well with the scale head couplers. I don't plan on changing them, or the Walthers near equivalent for the for-see-able future, maybe never. Too many non-Kadee cars on the list to do long before I consider if standard head Kadees get replaced.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 12, 2018 10:14:46 GMT -8
It would be interesting to know out of all model railroaders who are basically into the hobby for life, what percentage of them use (or even heard of) Sargent couplers. I've been wrong before, but I'll be it in the low single digits. Back when I first converted to Kadees, THEY were the ones that the advanced modelers were considering using. Fancying myself as one of those advanced modelers, I bought myself some Kadee K-5's, and installed them into my Athearn cars. I liked them! So I bought some K-4's, and put them into my Ulrich triple. Also good, except getting that teen spring AND short steel rod in was trying. Sergent is coupler cutting edge, now, as Kadee was back then. Sergent used to sell couplers assembled. They don't now. The first one I assembled I had trouble with. It would stick open UNLESS I turned the car upside down. Yeah, right. Sergent said they'd replace it, just send it back. I had 143 more couplers to build, so I thought I'd try a few more before doing that, so as to "bulk mail". But first I thought I'd disassemble the first one and look it over--what's to lose? So I did. Turns out there was a teeny little burr sticking up at the hole in the bottom coupler piece. I filed the burr off and reassembled. Worked fine, now. What I found and did to correct it is not mentioned in the Sergent directions. I continued assembling. I got 72 done before I kind of got bored (Imagine!). My point in this assembly-monologue is that it takes a bit of practice and thought to learn how to pull it off. The parts are teeny and tinier (I do NOT see how you can assemble these without the assembly fixture). You CANNOT make a mistake. But. When you're done, and you've installed them: They look just like real couplers. And they pretty much work just like real couplers. As opposed to Kadees. Which I also still use. Ed
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Post by Brakie on Jan 12, 2018 10:48:33 GMT -8
When you're done, and you've installed them: They look just like real couplers. And they pretty much work just like real couplers. As opposed to Kadees. Which I also still use. ------------------------------------------------------------
Ed, That's sounds way to much like working a as brakeman so,I'll pass. Sure, it's a mighty good living but,still the aches and pains, being on call 24/7, the cold and all sort of weather hasn't been forgotten by me.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 11:01:46 GMT -8
Ed, now you've poked the bear and sent me down memory lane.
When I was a freshman in college in 1977 in Sacramento, I visited a club and got shown around and that was really the first time I saw trains operating with Kadees - it was pretty impressive and I got so see some cool Southern Pacific trains run - many in Black Window paint.
Frankly before I visit that Sacramento train club, Kadees were an abstract thing to me which I think I had heard of and seen in magazines, but was something modelers with money and knowledge used somewhere out there beyond my world. I didn't have any mentors really back then which didn't help. Looking back, very much a model train noob at 18/19.
In fact I never owned or had an HO piece with Kadees until well into the 1980's. Why? Because by the time I was 20, I knew as a college student, with no hope of building layout for a long-long time, I might as well switch to N scale so I could have some fun with trains. So the first Kadee type couplers I had were the N-scale equivalent - Microtrains. By then, I made sure all the N-scale trains were equipped with Microtrains couplers and learned out to convert engines, which almost always came with those horrible Rapido couplers.
Return to HO with a quest to model the Rio Grande Zephyr:
Around 1985 I started my path back into HO scale when I moved to Texas and started buying HO trains. My first goal at the time was to try to model a facsimile of the recently defunct Rio Grande Zephyr by trying to convert an Athearn F7A into an F9A and use Concor Budd type passenger cars. As it happens, Palace Car Company, a year later announced Prospector Pullman Standard brass passenger cars. I put down a deposit on the combine and one or two others. I moved away in 1986 before the run of PCC cars were delivered and somehow they got delivered to my mother who intercepted them and sent them back sneakily. She still to this day at age 86 is major trouble, but that's another story. The quest for the RGZ with the correct prospector combine was still on my radar after I got married and was living in Rottenchester NY in 1988. I contacted Caboose Hobbies and they still had a PCC Combine left over - not precisely the one I wanted but still a "correct" combine (the less one without the dorm windows). I grabbed it for $120, a price $30 higher than the price I had tried to pre-order it at.
Ok by 1990's I was finally firmly in the Kadee camp buying and installing #5 Kadees - topic discussion - but sort of trying to use horn hooks on some cars, yuk.
How did the RGZ story play out?
In the mid-late 1990's I pieced together enough Kumata (Oriental, High Country Brass, Challenger) California Zephyr cars for the main of the Rio Grande Zephyr and sold off my Concor Budd passenger cars. I had done some detailing of an Athearn F7 shell adding the spark arrestors and nose grab irons but couldn't figure out how to get the side portal and louvers correct. Stewart came along with their single stripe F9A, which I bought, but Athearn Genesis came along and did a superior looking F9ABB set. A few years after that Broadway came out with their fully finished CZ cars so my unfinished Kumata cars went to CH on consignment. They lost a lot of value but they did sell eventually. The last major car left was still the unpainted PCC PS Prospector Combine purchased from CH, which happily Mark kindly took care of and did a great job on (thank you!). There is no steam generator yet, but I can live without it - the train looks complete now.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 11:12:08 GMT -8
Kadee evolved from the 1960's and 1970's from cutting edge for advanced modelrs, to standardization in the 1980's an 1990's.
Even long after other companies were allowed to start offering clones, Kadee is still de-facto the standard. Even if modelers disagree on a host of other things, they generally agree on that.
So with Sergents:
I'll stick out my neck and guess they will never take over Kadees like Kadees took over horn hooks and clones and they will probably remain an niche category.
I doubt companies like Intermountain, Tangent, ExactRail, Moloco and Wheels of Time will ever adopt Sargent couplers like they did Kadee. The reason IMO is that Kadee seem to be so much easier to implement and use for average modelers. Sergents appear to be require far more care to install and get to operate reliably from all I am hearing. A broad statement, but surely with some notable exceptions.
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