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Post by tony on Jan 12, 2018 12:15:59 GMT -8
I suspected that most people do not prefer the Accumate couplers. So if a majority of customers purchasing Atlas product, such as the recently FMC models, why do they use these couplers as the first choice? Seems completely wrong to me - perhaps this is a underlying agreement between Atlas and Accurail that legally requires them.
In the FMC 5347 Double Door car models I recently purchased, the product included a different bolster/coupler box and lid for Kadee type of couplers. I noticed that the plastic type are different between the two, and injected with different colors. The Accumate supporting parts are injected black - I'm not sure the type of plastic used, but different from the shell. The Kadee supporting parts are injected with grey/white color and the plastic type matches the shell (ABS ?) I'm curious why this is.
I found that the Kadee scale head springed couplers do not freely operate in the Kadee supporting coupler box. I had to file down the lid about 0.2 mm and that allows the coupler to pivot good. You need to repaint the filed part so you don't see the grey/white plastic.
I purchased mine from MB Klein - they apparently purchased a container load of these. Just wondering if this are factory rejects because every one I have has some type of issue - like broken ladders, steps, bent grabs, etc....
The other thing I noticed is that the couple lift bars are not bent correctly - the handle is missing a bent needed on the handle part to orientate it to the correct look, the supporting brackets for these are not in the correct position either. More correctly work needed here to finish the job the Chinese did not do correctly.
I was wondering why MB Klein was selling this at a great discount - well, I now know why. If they were $11 that would be good deal - and only if you have the time to correct all the issues and get the couplers installed that you need.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 12, 2018 12:30:15 GMT -8
I tend to agree. But do remember that Kadees were around a LOOONG time before anyone "significant" (other than Kadee) included them with their cars. Something like 50 years. Installing: The ease of installing Sergents and Kadees is about the same. For the former, you also have to install a teeny coil spring (just like with Kadee 4's). For the latter (maybe) the flat-ish bronze spring. That's with the boxes with the "big" center pin with room for a screw for the box cover--the "standard" installation. Operate reliably: They operate reliably IF they are assembled properly. I've coupled. I've uncoupled. They do both real well. It DOES look kind of magical--how'd they DO that? I've not seen or heard of a coupling breaking open. Like Athearn couplers seem to do. Once coupled, they stay coupled. Implementation: Yup. You actually have to pay attention and get the coupler height right. And you have to get your trackwork right, too. Some of us can do that. Others can't. Or won't really try, BELIEVING they can't. About the same thing. As I've mentioned more than once, my first installation of Sergent couplers was on a (mostly dummy equipped) unit coal train. There were 3 Sergent "coupler interfaces" in the train. I ran it on two Free-mo setups, with a goodly number of modules by a buncha different people. No derailments. No coupler partings. And that's "out of the box". I will also say/admit that I would prefer the Sergents come assembled. But they don't. Now. Assembling them properly is kind of unforgiving. But a bunch of people have done it. And they aren't SUPER MEN/WOMEN. (Or are they??........Hmm.....). Ed |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 12, 2018 12:53:36 GMT -8
I change out all couplers to the appropriate # Kadee as needed for the model.I even cut and remove the glad hands at times to give it a more authentic look. I too cut off the Kadee "hose" or the metal trip pin. In my experience, the trip pin on a Kadee is good for getting caught on track, crossings, etc. and gouging up the paint on snow plow pilots and foot boards. |
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Post by upcsx on Jan 12, 2018 13:17:43 GMT -8
Some Atlas I can change to Kadees but some it's hard to do so I just leave them on just like Genesis first run of 5161's and Intermountain's tank cars.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 12, 2018 14:08:01 GMT -8
[I tend to agree. But do remember that Kadees were around a LOOONG time before anyone "significant" (other than Kadee) included them with their cars. Something like 50 years. Very true, but a LOOOONG time may not make any difference if there are mitigating factors that remain true. Such as the: - operate reliably IF they are assembled properly. And that may be one deal breaker from what I'm hearing. And if assembly is that finicky, will Tangent/ExactRail,IMRC etc. install them unless Sergents perfects them, maybe not in our life time. And - Yup. You actually have to pay attention and get the coupler height right. And you have to get your trackwork right, too. Some of us can do that. Others can't. Or won't really try, BELIEVING they can't. About the same thing. Right so this may be a deal breaker for the masses and manufactures. They both need something that is not so finicky to be reliable. I don't know - if enough people need some "special skills" to burnish the parts to get them working perfectly .... So here is where Kadee's shine. From what I'm seeing, they were pretty trouble free at the beginning of the 50 years, even if they tweeked them 30 years later with an improved version. By that reckoning, Sargents has to be made more trouble free for a larger set of the modeling community for that 50 year clock even starts ticking. Bottom line, IF Sargents become the new Kadee, not likely we will see it. Maybe our children.  |
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 12, 2018 14:59:22 GMT -8
Each Atlas engine I install a decoder in also gets Kadees. Makes it easy to tell which have them and which don't.
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Post by tony on Jan 12, 2018 15:45:19 GMT -8
Some Atlas I can change to Kadees but some it's hard to do so I just leave them on just like Genesis first run of 5161's and Intermountain's tank cars. Regarding those Athearn Trinity hoppers - they redesigned that couple box design several years ago to work with Kadee type couplers. I've requested replacement parts - maybe in one of these next runs they will have them. The more people requesting the more likely to get them. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Jan 12, 2018 16:29:00 GMT -8
The only ones I swap are Rapido passenger cars for the kadee #5 with whiskers (I can never remember the new number). Everything else stays the way it was.
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Post by el3625 on Jan 12, 2018 16:50:32 GMT -8
If it don't come with kadee's, it gets them at the tune-up and before it touches the rails, kit or RTR.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 12, 2018 16:54:37 GMT -8
All Accumates get purged for Kadees.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 12, 2018 19:15:32 GMT -8
You do not have to burnish the parts when assembling Sergent couplers. You do have to look out for flash, which is very rare. You also have to look out for bits of walnut shell that may be in the small voids where the ball goes or where the knuckle pivots on the coupler head. You must look for little bits of metal still attached to the internal horizontal shelf of the knuckle and remove them so the knuckle operates freely.
The only thing you should take care to burnish or clean out - but not enlarge - is the void in the top of the coupler head where the ball nests when a magnet is applied. A toothpick sanded down to fit the void should do the trick.
If the void is enlarged it is possible for the ball to become trapped behind the horizontal shelf of the knuckle, which will cause the coupler to be stuck open. I've had this happen a few times. The cause is either the hole was enlarged because I reamed it when I assembled the coupler (live and learn) or the knuckle is allowed to rotate open too far.
This over-rotation can be caused by removing too much of the horizontal shelf when cleaning up the parts or rarely by a defectively cast part. There is a little slot in the inside thumb side of the coupler where the horizontal knuckle shelf is allowed to move. To solve the over-rotation problem on some couplers where the ball is getting trapped behind the open knuckle, I have inserted a small bit of styrene into the end of this slot to limit the amount the knuckle can rotate. Limiting the rotation allows the ball to move vertically and the knuckle to open, but prevents the ball from falling behind the knuckle. Once the styrene bit is secured in place, I file and sand it to fit then paint to match.
Sergent couplers are not difficult to assemble. After you discover the things that can go wrong and why, it's pretty easy to avoid the mistakes that cause them. They are not trouble-free when it comes to operating. Like the prototype you have to make sure they are aligned. Generally if you keep your hands off the cars and don't uncouple in curves the couplers will stay where you left them and coupling will be easy.
They are not as simple or foolproof as Kadees. If you want to run trains and not focus on couplers, Kadee is the best. Everything else is garbage to meet that goal. If you want an SF coupler on your 1975 built tank car or Type Fs on your BN SD40-2 because that's what it should have, Sergent couplers are the answer. If you want switching at the slower and more deliberate pace of the real thing, Sergent couplers can help make that happen and add some dimension of the real thing to your operations. But be prepared to have to tinker and fiddle with them until you become a coupler expert.
I've assembled about 500 and have another fifty waiting for me. I've found I have the best success with assembly when I'm not hurried and I can just enjoy the time building. If I'm in the wrong frame of mind or rushed or focused on something else, odds are I'll be rebuilding a few pair later.
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Jan 13, 2018 9:20:20 GMT -8
If you have a minute please add your voice using this poll on Atlas models with Accumate couplers. Accumate couplers are junk. Nothing compares with Kadee period for the price you pay. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jan 13, 2018 9:57:20 GMT -8
At our club, Accumate couplers and any plastic-knuckle spring McHenry's are banned. Plastic couplers with metal coil knuckle springs are allowed (for now), but nothing works as well as a Kadee. All Atlas Accumate couplers are immediately pulled out and replaced with Kadees (standard head) for my own stuff.
For our narrow gauge, we've always used the Kadee #714, but the infamous slinky action in a train is off putting so we thought we'd try the Sergents. We equipped a couple cars and, well, the members really haven't been too impressed. It's far more difficult to get a hitch or uncouple, and since narrow gauge is more fiddly to begin with, it ups the frustration factor to unpleasant levels. I doubt we'll convert. It's too bad because I love the way they look, but watching the guys trying to get them coupled (or uncoupled) is just painful.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 13, 2018 10:09:20 GMT -8
You do not have to burnish the parts when assembling Sergent couplers. Above you say you don't need to burnish any parts but below you do. I know I've read other people talking about burnishing so apparently that is an important step to a good operating coupler. |
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 13, 2018 11:04:45 GMT -8
I should have put burnish in quotes or italics in the second instance to emphasize that the step I was speaking of may be where people are saying the part needs to be burnished, but my phone makes it hard to edit the text properly.
Burnished to me implies that the part needs to be modified by removing a tiny amount of material - not quite the same as polishing, but smoothing out. That is not the case. The part does not need to be modified or polished. You are looking for debris in the void, which may include metal (I've never seen it in there) but is most commonly walnut shell bits. This is one place you definitely do not want to modify the part and accidentally enlarge the void since it can cause problems. That's why I use a toothpick sanded down to the shape of the void.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 13, 2018 14:47:49 GMT -8
Ryan, I've always understood burnish be to polish.
So that is how I've always understood the other people who were building the Sargent kits and the step which they said was very important for smooth correct reliable operation.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 13, 2018 15:17:37 GMT -8
Ok, fair enough. I always thought of burnish as rubbing, like when you apply dry transfers you burnish the ink onto the model surface. There's even a burnishing tool for this. In any event, you're not removing material at all, just seating the decal into the surface. That's where I saw a difference between burnishing and polishing. To me, polishing implies removal of material to smooth the surface.
That is not part of the process to build reliable Sergent couplers. Like I said, I've built a bunch of them over the years. Several of the first gross I built were unreliable because I was not careful about the knuckles and controlling how far they can rotate when opened. That's as much choosing only knuckles that are cast without defects as much as it is being careful not to remove too much material when there's a bit of sprue still left on the part. But burnishing or polishing any of the parts would not have affected the problems I had, so I don't include it in my build process. I think modifying the components unnecessarily by scouring, sanding, grinding, carving or reaming is the main source of problems people have with these couplers.
Originally the couplers would often include hollow knuckles or the knuckles would have a rough edge along the mating face, but I haven't seen that in the past several orders.
That reminds me: there is one step after you've built the couplers where you rub them together. Maybe that's the burnishing step others talk about? It consists of mating a pair of couplers together and moving them against each other vertically. I do this after I put a little powdered graphite in the knuckle pivot points. I also use a pencil to rub graphite on the knuckle surfaces, which has the effect of making them look like they've been polished a bit, like metal rubbed raw.
Anyway, the purpose of this step isn't to polish the couplers so much as test the fit and strength of the assembly. If the glue is not securing the parts together they will come apart.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 13, 2018 15:19:22 GMT -8
It APPEARS to me that, when I do the toothpick trick on the couplers, the little holes are shinier. And when I do the test assembly, before I glue the thing together, if there's a problem, it sometimes APPEARS to be solved by more toothpicking.
It surely doesn't hurt, whether it burnishes or not.
I have wondered if the toothpick, when it's twirled in the hole, might clear out what I would call "micro-burrs".
I recommend doing it. That is, if you're assembling Sergent couplers. If you're putting it in an olive, it's probably unnecessary.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Jan 13, 2018 15:30:30 GMT -8
Dunno, just passing on what I heard.
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Post by milgentrains on Jan 13, 2018 16:02:54 GMT -8
My future layout would involve 3 car trains moving at slow speeds so i think the Accumates will stay unless one breaks.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 13, 2018 16:09:50 GMT -8
I guess the takeaway should be that:
*Sergent couplers can be finicky, and
*They are more labor-intensive than Kadee couplers
Of course, just about anything is more labor-intensive than opening a package. Kadees work all the time. They are easy to use. These days just about everything is designed to accommodate them. Unless you really want to work on couplers and get good at assembling and fiddling with them, Kadees are best.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 13, 2018 16:23:17 GMT -8
It APPEARS to me that, when I do the toothpick trick on the couplers, the little holes are shinier. And when I do the test assembly, before I glue the thing together, if there's a problem, it sometimes APPEARS to be solved by more toothpicking. It surely doesn't hurt, whether it burnishes or not. I have wondered if the toothpick, when it's twirled in the hole, might clear out what I would call "micro-burrs". I recommend doing it. That is, if you're assembling Sergent couplers. If you're putting it in an olive, it's probably unnecessary. Ed I guess we're talking about the same thing. It's important to make sure there is nothing in that little void to foul movement of the ball. I've had more trouble with bits of foreign matter in the knuckle pivot points than in the void for the locking ball. An olive would go quite well with Sergent couplers, as long as it's in a martini. |
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Post by oldmuley on Jan 13, 2018 16:24:01 GMT -8
I’m another guy who switches the OEM couplers for Sergents.
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Post by canrailfan on Jan 13, 2018 18:44:46 GMT -8
After using Kadees for many years I am also converting to Sergents. I like the appearance and find they operate reliably when assembled correctly. I agree with what's been said about 'burnishing' and using the assembly jig. I have also modified an assembly jig for use with the short and extended shank versions.
The price of the Sergent Type E couplers is 58 cents each in the bulk pack (un-assembled), which compares well with the price of Kadees. With practice it takes about 5 minutes to assemble a pair, less if done in bigger batches. The only disappointment is that they no longer come in the original brown colour so painting is required. I don't know if many people also paint their Kadees?
I find using the Sergents slows operating to a more relaxing pace, and causes me to operate more prototypically.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 13, 2018 19:44:58 GMT -8
I see that Sergent now has Type H tightlocks!!!!! I'm in!!!!!!
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 13, 2018 20:33:37 GMT -8
I have also modified an assembly jig for use with the short and extended shank versions. I have also, also. I've been doing it since the eighties. Remember the eighties? If you do, you didn't take enough drugs. That's an interesting point. Unfortunately, I'm only putting Sergents on my "unit trains", so there ain't much switching. But I can imagine...... Ed |
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 13, 2018 21:58:41 GMT -8
I see that Sergent now has Type H tightlocks!!!!! I'm in!!!!!! You'll need to ensure there is room for vertical as well as some torsional movement if you're going to use the Type H couplers. The slightest variation in trackwork will ruin your day unless the couplers can account for sags or peaks. Even in the Free-mo world where intermodule joints are pretty well regulated as far as the standard is concerned, a modular layout can wreak havoc on a train of cars equipped with these. |
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 13, 2018 22:02:56 GMT -8
I find using the Sergents slows operating to a more relaxing pace, and causes me to operate more prototypically. That's an interesting point. Unfortunately, I'm only putting Sergents on my "unit trains", so there ain't much switching. But I can imagine...... Ed I have a few unit coal trains. I initially used Kadees and Walthers dummy couplers at a 6:1 ratio to allow for breaking the trains into cuts. I have transitioned them to a mix of Sergents and the Sergent compatible Glatzl couplers. It would be cool to try the Glatzl rotary couplers, but mercifully I have avoided modeling a power generating station. Maybe someday.... |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jan 16, 2018 5:59:26 GMT -8
I'm still waiting to make the switch to Sergent couplers, and will probably try them on one of my Bluebox F-unit projects.
I still have a bunch of Kadee scale couplers waiting in queue, however, I've always been turned off by the shape of their knuckle. I've always thought that the current knuckle shape should be revised to more closely resemble a prototype knuckle without compromising the automatic coupling feature we've grown accustom to.
It'll probably never happen, but one could hope...
Donnell
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Post by riogrande on Jan 16, 2018 6:05:14 GMT -8
The N scale version (Microtrains) looks even less like a real coupler - what do N scalers do who are put off but it? Is there a more realistic option like HO'ers have in Sargent?
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