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Post by loco8107 on Mar 21, 2018 16:04:12 GMT -8
I’ve noticed a lot of the high end locos (Atlas and Genesis) I see on eBay have sound. Does anyone know the sales of sound units vs non sound? I was just wondering.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 18:03:41 GMT -8
Units with sound are selling more than 55 percent of all now made, per my friend at Bowser. The trend toward all sound is ever increasing. Some manufacturers only offer them fully loaded with sound and dcc now. At least one offers non-sound units only by special pre-order currently.
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Post by steveturner on Mar 21, 2018 18:08:13 GMT -8
Does that mean 55 per cent of modelers or more use some type of DCC vs DC ?. Steve
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 18:15:50 GMT -8
What that means is current pre-orders for Bowser engines are more than 55% with sound and dcc and increasing.
Some manufacturers still offer sound and plain dc but that is less common.
Intermountains's latest offerings will not run out of the box in plain dc at all. One must order a special plug from them. Otherwise they only run in dcc mode. My GP-10 units actually have a warning not to attempt to run them in plain dc.
I just bought an older dual mode decoder equipped Proto 2000 U30B off ebay and it appears the years have not been kind to the dual mode decoder in a brand new never run unit. It runs better in plain dc and very herky jerky in dcc.
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Post by loco8107 on Mar 21, 2018 18:19:17 GMT -8
Units with sound are selling more than 55 percent of all now made, per my friend at Bowser. The trend toward all sound is ever increasing. Some manufacturers only offer them fully loaded with sound and dcc now. At least one offers non-sound units only by special pre-order currently. I was wondering since I see so many more sound units for sale on both eBay and Trainworld online. Had me thinking more non sound units sell. |
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Post by loco8107 on Mar 21, 2018 18:23:54 GMT -8
And if that’s the case, I wonder why non sound units are harder to get a good while after the units are on the market.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2018 18:26:18 GMT -8
The other current trend is that those who do not want factory sound and dcc for various reasons, maybe they prefer a certain brand of dcc decoder for their own layout, do tend to buy the less expensive units first. So they are just gone from the marketplace faster. Less are made. Less are ever available, and the value oriented budget buyers tend to buy them up. That is why MBK and others seem to have the with sound units in stock longer.
I am one of the dinosaurs buying the plain dc units.
I also have to admit the Rapido FA-2 sound and the Intermountain GP-10 sound are both just amazing, and notably better than earlier sound decoder offerings.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Mar 21, 2018 18:53:15 GMT -8
Sound units are great, that is if the sound decoder is good. However, if the decoder sucks pond water being forced to spend more money because it is only available with sound really does suck. I am speaking of Broadway Limited, who's Paragon II sound chips sound remotely like a diesel locomotive. Having the option to not have to pay for something you don't want is important to me and others.
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scaledriver
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Post by scaledriver on Mar 21, 2018 19:04:40 GMT -8
There are not definitive numbers that I know of.
Some manufacturers may tell their own numbers.
Sound is almost definitely the “majority” of sales.
My guess is somewhere between 51 and 70 percent.
Several factors are at play. Some stores do not order many non sound units for a variety of resons.
Some people like to install their own sound. Some want to save money, or install just a DCC decoder.
Broadway only makes sound engines. Their sound is not great to my ears so I do see that as a selling point.
MTH “DCC ready” engines are not plug and play if you want things like the ditch lights to work.
Overall though, DCC and Sound are more and more the future I think.
Thank you
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scaledriver
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Post by scaledriver on Mar 21, 2018 19:07:28 GMT -8
Sound units are great, that is if the sound decoder is good. However, if the decoder sucks pond water being forced to spend more money because it is only available with sound really does suck. I am speaking of Broadway Limited, who's Paragon II sound chips sound remotely like a diesel locomotive. Having the option to not have to pay for something you don't want is important to me and others. Fortunately Broadway is not the exclusive maker of many/any diesels. I guess for the C30-7 maybe the only one actively making one (unfortunately). |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 21, 2018 21:02:57 GMT -8
You can't really judge the popularity of sound/no-sound locos based on how hard they are to find online or based on eBay prices. The simple reason is that we don't know how many they made of each kind in the first place.
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Post by lvrr325 on Mar 21, 2018 23:07:51 GMT -8
I have people ask me for sound at shows then are shocked when they find sound is another $100.
From a seller standpoint, anything expensive ends up selling on ebay, it's incredibly rare to sell even a DC locomotive at a show.
Personally I don't care for it, I have a couple of sound locos and after a while I turned the sound off.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 3:09:21 GMT -8
Intermountains's latest offerings will not run out of the box in plain dc at all. One must order a special plug from them. Otherwise they only run in dcc mode. My GP-10 units actually have a warning not to attempt to run them in plain dc. I thought IM used ESU decoders. What sort of voodoo are they doing to them to prevent them from working on DC? |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 22, 2018 4:23:00 GMT -8
I have people ask me for sound at shows then are shocked when they find sound is another $100. From a seller standpoint, anything expensive ends up selling on ebay, it's incredibly rare to sell even a DC locomotive at a show. Personally I don't care for it, I have a couple of sound locos and after a while I turned the sound off. I would imagine a lot of show goers aren't the type who spend large sums on the hobby; many are dads or family's going for a trip out and dropping $200-300+ is something they aren't prepared to do. Frankly, I don't drop $200-300+ at shows either. I tend to shop for my engines on-line with certain vendors or occasionally on Ebay (just bought a BLI Utah RSD-15 so I would have two number to pull Utah coal trains during my time period). I usually bring about one hundred dollars to a show and when it's spent, it's spent. I've only bought engines at shows one or two times in the last 10 years. But to be fair, most vendors in the Washington DC - Maryland - northern Virginia area shows don't carry much in the way of SP or D&RGW engines. So far, I am not a big sound fan either and to date, only own a small number of sound equipped engines. When ever I play youtube video's, 95% of the time, I turn the sound way down or off because they include lots of engine sounds and I find them very irritating - I suppose it's partly the because mostly what you hear are "high end" frequency sounds which are shrill and piercing. I have bought a sampling of loco's with sound. But some I bought to get additional road numbers, not for the crappy QSI sound (Atlas GP40-2's). I did buy one set of P2k F units with QSI sound because I didn't know how mediocrer it was at the time and they were among my first sound units. Since I bought the few QSI sound engines, I've bought a couple with Tsunami, Genesis GP40-2 and Athearn RTR SD40 and also a one-off steam engine - an IMRC Cab Forward which has very nice Lok Sound. More recently I bought two BLI RSD-15 engines I needed for my late 1970's-early 1980's Utah Rwy coal train. I would have preferred to buy them without sound, but unfortunately that option wasn't available. It was sound or no engine; so I felt forced to buy sound against my will as some have mentioned is getting more and more the case.  |
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Post by luebeck3102 on Mar 22, 2018 5:26:39 GMT -8
For me, I do see more units with sound on the shelves than non-sound versions at both my LHS and train shows. In recent years, I've mostly bought units with sound, but only if they are equipped with ESU Loksound. Since Athearn diesels still uses Soundtraxx, I buy the DCC Ready units from now on until they switch over to ESU. I used to only like Soundtraxx sound decoders, but I flipped that switch in 2016. MTH uses their own PS3 so I buy their DCC Ready models. BLI only offers it with their Paragon 2/3 sounds, so I will never buy any of their stuff.
It is a lot harder to find the Athearn unit you're looking for that is DCC Ready than it is with DCC & Sound and with pretty much any other manufacturer. For example, it took me a few months to actually find a Genesis BNSF ES44DC Golden Swoosh unit that wasn't equipped with Tsunami2 sound at the price I was willing to pay (anything lower than MAP). Last weekend at the train show that I was at, there was only one vendor that was selling the newest run of Genesis CN SD75I without sound which I was able to pick up. Everyone else that had them were with sound.
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Post by riogrande on Mar 22, 2018 5:42:10 GMT -8
I too have noticed non-sound units seem to sell out faster and there have been more sound equipped engines when I check real-time stock at some of the online vendors I shop with. My assumption has always been that the reason for more sound units is that the non-sound units sell out faster. Reasons being cost and as luebeck mentioned, some modelers don't want the sound chip available in the engines being offered with sound from the factory.
Heck, I somewhat reluctantly bought the Tsunami sound SD40R because it was $40 just to have the bloody decoder already installed and the sound was really secondary. Now I have been impressed with the Loksound I've been hearing in the past few years so I am looking forward to trying out a diesel with it factory installed. I have way way too many things on my to-do list (both home wise and layout planning wise) to want to add more to it such as a decoder installation right now.
It's really a mixed bag these days with the sound equipped loco's being more what's available. It's nice to get it pre-installed yes, but if it isn't the chip/version you like - which so far odds were that it would be a type not desired, then not a good trend for people who a discriminating.
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Post by gevohogger on Mar 22, 2018 6:36:41 GMT -8
I only buy the non-sound locomotives. Why? I'm on the real thing for 8, 9, 12 or however many hours each day. I don't want to hear that noise in my free time, and frankly, the HO sound models sound tinny and fake. All of them. No thanks; I'd rather keep my money.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 6:56:57 GMT -8
The other current trend is that those who do not want factory sound and dcc for various reasons, maybe they prefer a certain brand of dcc decoder for their own layout, do tend to buy the less expensive units first. So they are just gone from the marketplace faster. Less are made. Less are ever available, and the value oriented budget buyers tend to buy them up. That is why MBK and others seem to have the with sound units in stock longer. I am one of the dinosaurs buying the plain dc units. I also have to admit the Rapido FA-2 sound and the Intermountain GP-10 sound are both just amazing, and notably better than earlier sound decoder offerings. Same here. I bought the new Athearn Genesis GP15AC in MoPac blue. Non-sound. While my former reason is to install Loksound into them myself, I am now just installing DH165A0 decoders in them, or hard wiring them in with the digitrax harness. But, your point is valid regarding the non-sound units...as the non sound GP15AC's are sold out...at Athearn already. |
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Post by timmie on Mar 22, 2018 6:58:34 GMT -8
I have noticed with most of the top of the line offerings from all the high end companies...if you want all the bells and whistles with lighting, loco performance configurations, you have no other choice but to get sound.
As already stated, I'm not particularly fond of sound...it quickly becomes tiresome after two or three sound units are running... so F8 gets used lol
I now have several fully equipped units just for the simple fact I wanted the full offering package with lighting etc, and the sound is turned off.
Unfortunately, one has to spend the extra dough to get the fully equipped units.
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scaledriver
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Post by scaledriver on Mar 22, 2018 7:22:27 GMT -8
I have noticed with most of the top of the line offerings from all the high end companies...if you want all the bells and whistles with lighting, loco performance configurations, you have no other choice but to get sound. As already stated, I'm not particularly fond of sound...it quickly becomes tiresome after two or three sound units are running... so F8 gets used lol I now have several fully equipped units just for the simple fact I wanted the full offering package with lighting etc, and the sound is turned off. Unfortunately, one has to spend the extra dough to get the fully equipped units. Except for Broadway Limited, the above is not accurate. All One has to do is purchase a DCC ready engine and install a decoder for DCC or do nothing for DC. For Intermountain one would buy a non sound engine and then obtain the free DC plug to use DC. Otherwise nothing for just DCC. Thank you |
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Post by luebeck3102 on Mar 22, 2018 7:52:30 GMT -8
I have noticed with most of the top of the line offerings from all the high end companies...if you want all the bells and whistles with lighting, loco performance configurations, you have no other choice but to get sound. As already stated, I'm not particularly fond of sound...it quickly becomes tiresome after two or three sound units are running... so F8 gets used lol I now have several fully equipped units just for the simple fact I wanted the full offering package with lighting etc, and the sound is turned off. Unfortunately, one has to spend the extra dough to get the fully equipped units. I know that if you want everything working properly for pretty much most ScaleTrains Rivet Counter/Museum Quality offerings, you have to buy the right decoder, or buy it equipped with sound. ESU is the only decoder manufacturer that makes a decoder for all the lights to be working. Those would be the Loksound V4.0 and Lokpilot V4.0. If someone wants to install a WOWSound or a Tsunami2 decoder into a ScaleTrains unit like a ET44AC, not all of the lighting functions will work, nor will the built in Power Pack work. Tsunami2 decoders can only hold up to 6 outputs, WOWSound can hold up to 8 and so can the Loksound Selects. The V4.0s can hold up to 12. |
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Post by milgentrains on Mar 22, 2018 7:56:34 GMT -8
I also prefer non sound locos. After a while all the noise just gets annoying to me. The only locos i would consider buying them with sound is Walthers. The only reason for this is nobody seems to make a drop in decoder for them. My three walthers switchers are useless now that I've switched to DCC.
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timmie
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Post by timmie on Mar 22, 2018 8:36:30 GMT -8
Scaledriver...in most cases what I stated is very accurate. Unless your a computer programmer the average Joe for the most part cannot get all the functions to work as intended by adding your own decoder and programming it. The Rapido offerings are near impossible.
It's just easier to buy the locos fully equipped from the factory.. at least then all the functions work as intended.
Sometimes taking the cheaper way out isn't always best.
Or perhaps the purchaser is relatively new to the hobby and just isn't proficient with installing and programming decoders.
I'll be the first to admit I'm not a whiz at programming. I can handle decoder installations ok but the setting of CVs and what not I'm not that good at.
So the factory installed offerings are much more apealing.
luebeck3102.... those reasons right there you pointed out are exactly why I say just get the factory installed versions.
In most cases after you factor in the cost of the dcc ready loco, the cost of the sound decoder etc, your time, the Asprin for the headache of trying to get it programed properly....it's not cheaper..or if it is, it's not by much.
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scaledriver
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Post by scaledriver on Mar 22, 2018 9:13:25 GMT -8
Scaledriver...in most cases what I stated is very accurate. Unless your a computer programmer the average Joe for the most part cannot get all the functions to work as intended by adding your own decoder and programming it. The Rapido offerings are near impossible. It's just easier to buy the locos fully equipped from the factory.. at least then all the functions work as intended. Sometimes taking the cheaper way out isn't always best. Or perhaps the purchaser is relatively new to the hobby and just isn't proficient with installing and programming decoders. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a whiz at programming. I can handle decoder installations ok but the setting of CVs and what not I'm not that good at. So the factory installed offerings are much more apealing. luebeck3102.... those reasons right there you pointed out are exactly why I say just get the factory installed versions. In most cases after you factor in the cost of the dcc ready loco, the cost of the sound decoder etc, your time, the Asprin for the headache of trying to get it programed properly....it's not cheaper..or if it is, it's not by much. To not use sound, but use all the other features of Rapido or Scaletrains, all it takes is a Lokpilot 4.0 which sells for $30 or less at some places. Personally I do not think one needs to be a computer programmer to use the ditch lights etc but your experience may be difference. The only way to solve the problem you describe is for manufacturers to also sell DCC equipped non sound engines. No company does that in HO that I know of, which indicates to me the market is not there for that option. Thank you |
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 22, 2018 9:24:51 GMT -8
Scaledriver...in most cases what I stated is very accurate. Unless your a computer programmer the average Joe for the most part cannot get all the functions to work as intended by adding your own decoder and programming it. The Rapido offerings are near impossible. It's just easier to buy the locos fully equipped from the factory.. at least then all the functions work as intended. Sometimes taking the cheaper way out isn't always best. Or perhaps the purchaser is relatively new to the hobby and just isn't proficient with installing and programming decoders. I'll be the first to admit I'm not a whiz at programming. I can handle decoder installations ok but the setting of CVs and what not I'm not that good at. So the factory installed offerings are much more apealing. luebeck3102.... those reasons right there you pointed out are exactly why I say just get the factory installed versions. In most cases after you factor in the cost of the dcc ready loco, the cost of the sound decoder etc, your time, the Asprin for the headache of trying to get it programed properly....it's not cheaper..or if it is, it's not by much. To not use sound, but use all the other features of Rapido or Scaletrains, all it takes is a Lokpilot 4.0 which sells for $30 or less at some places. Personally I do not think one needs to be a computer programmer to use the ditch lights etc but your experience may be difference. The only way to solve the problem you describe is for manufacturers to also sell DCC equipped non sound engines. No company does that in HO that I know of, which indicates to me the market is not there for that option. Thank you Every single non sound locomotive currently made by Intermountain certainly does have a non sound decoder installed |
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scaledriver
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Post by scaledriver on Mar 22, 2018 10:18:31 GMT -8
To not use sound, but use all the other features of Rapido or Scaletrains, all it takes is a Lokpilot 4.0 which sells for $30 or less at some places. Personally I do not think one needs to be a computer programmer to use the ditch lights etc but your experience may be difference. The only way to solve the problem you describe is for manufacturers to also sell DCC equipped non sound engines. No company does that in HO that I know of, which indicates to me the market is not there for that option. Thank you Every single non sound locomotive currently made by Intermountain certainly does have a non sound decoder installed Ok that is one. At this point I am losing horizon on what the topic is here. I am going to leave this Scrum for others to figure out what Is or is not sold and available. I am happy with the market as it is. Thank you |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 22, 2018 10:24:15 GMT -8
The market seems to continue to evolve. Perfect no, but we have more choices than ever.
I am glad Athearn dropped the MRC decoders which I've read so many negative things about; the comments were so negative that I made sure I never purchased a sound equipped loco during that period of Athearns production. Athearn changed to Tsunami which I read much better things about so I did spring for a couple of ST equipped loco's although the vast majority are still silent. I expect it will be cheaper and easier to convert them to DCC running than install sound in them, which will be more complicated and have a learning curve. I've read so many positive things about ESU Loksound and listened to them that I am looking forward to trying out one of them - diesel that is (I do have the steam Loksound Cab Forward).
It will be interesting to see how sound evolves in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 14:08:15 GMT -8
Yes, current production Intermountain engines come with a DCC non-sound decoder, for those who do not want the sound. This does enable you to operate all the light features, and they run very well. However, with the particular controller that I do use, the dcc non-sound engines do have a minor problem: they don't start or stop smoothly if all the lights and numberboards are on. It appears to be some kind of programming glitch that the diesels do not like my MRC Tech 6. The full sound and dcc engine performed better for me than the dcc only version.
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Post by sd80mac on Mar 23, 2018 6:25:36 GMT -8
If you are becoming annoyed by your sound equipped locomotives, your volume is set too high. I have never once been irritated by any sounds emitted from my fleet, except maybe when an operator forgets to shut the friggen' bell off!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 7:08:36 GMT -8
I have one sound locomotive that I bought, used at a train show a few years ago for about 50$. A proto 1000 rs2. The previous owner installed sound in. I let it run around for about 5 minutes before getting tired of hearing it. It's the same sound, over and over and the effect is kinda lame and weak, especially when you are running trains for hours at a time at the same speed. When switching cars, It's kinda cool but, continuously running, not very. I only run DC. I usually run a set of milw donkeys around (a set of sw-1s) together and never have any electrical problems.And also i didn't even solder any of the rails together! The layout has a very ingenious design that I'm quite proud of, and only one set of feeders are present. I like it because it's simple. I would actually prefer sound equipped freight cars. Random cars with squealing wheels,the sound of brakes being applied to the wheels,brake lines hissing, the Doppler effect of passing crossing gates with bells, the sound of a whistle blowing in the distance ahead ( the echoing of a horn near buildings also would be neat). The sounds of the wheels hammering down the rails, even ribbon rail has some jointed sounds at crossings and switches, cars with flat spots on there wheels randomly is rather loud when they pass by, something i'd like to hear as well. I like the sound of a train, not just the things upfront. Nothing like that exists yet. I'm not a foamer. I'm a modeler that doesn't like sound equipped locomotives, But i think there are more important ambient sounds that are missing. Maybe some day we will get those. I think it's time for the sound market to start branching out  |
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