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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2018 21:11:22 GMT -8
If I could assign a model to a manufacturer to produce. I would have Kato produce the GP30. Simply because it would then match their GP35. The P2K/ Walthers GP30 is still OK, but it has issues. 1. Handrails are terrible. 2. Step wells are to shallow and have that step behind the pilot plate. 3. Fans are pretty lame too. All issues fixable of course, but we should not have to. I know that an Athearn Genesis GP30 or a Scale Trains GP30 would probably have good tooling. I for one would rather not see it done by Scathearn. They will suffer from the usual terrible handrails, thick paint and most likely no undecs or parts available. Although I guess it really would not matter. I have enough Kato GP35's to last me the rest of my life and I can build a Kato GP30. This model was started about a year ago. In the last couple weeks I was able to get a lot more done. Tonight I finished the sill unit on my Kato GP30. She is sitting on shop trucks. The AAR's for this model are done and ready for paint. All the photo etch are my own designs. The jacking pads are designed from the prototype dimensions and 3D printed. The chain guide is built from styrene. There will be a chain attached to the front left brake arm and will route through this guide. Coupler lift bar brackets are my own design that I had Details West cast. Coupler lift bar is brass wire bent to shape. This is a phase I GP30, so I was able to use the Kato GP35 cab sub base. To do this kitbash on a phase II GP30. I would need to transplant a longer equipment box under the cab on the left side. I know the question will be asked why I did not go with scale size handrails. Simply for uniformity. My GP35's and GP28's will use the stock Kato handrails. By building the handrails the same size, this model will blend right in with the other models.    I am building four models at once. This GP30, two phase Ia1 GP35's and a GP28. This unit is now put on the ready track and I will bring the first GP35 out and get the sill unit done on it. All units have the trucks, frames and fuel tanks done. Once all the sill units are done. I will move on to building the sub bases and cabs. Then the hoods of each. Although it appears to take a long time to do it this way. Before long, I will have four model completed. Brian |
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 9, 2018 1:01:31 GMT -8
Good progress so far Brian. One thing just sticks out to me though: The P2K/ Walthers GP30 is still OK, but it has issues. 1. Handrails are terrible. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but it's a bit of a head-scratcher how one can complain about the Walthers/P2K handrails (which are quite fine and generally look nice to most, despite suffering from some shrinkage/lean on the longer ones), and turn around and use the uber-pipe-thick Kato handrails and stanchions on a model they go to extra lengths making prototypically accurate. But, to each their own I guess. |
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Post by tom on Dec 9, 2018 5:44:20 GMT -8
Here is my "Kato" GP30. It is simply the P2K GP30 shell on a Kato GP35 mechanism. Fans (except for the small radiator fan) was replaced with Plan parts. I have always thought that the P2K GP30 was very well done except for the running quality of it. Still looks great to me and with the Kato mechanism runs great too. I also recently upgraded this GP30 with a Loksound decoder and LED lighting.  |
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Post by cf7 on Dec 9, 2018 6:06:24 GMT -8
Back in '92, I built a Kato GP30 using a Bachmann GP30 shell on a just released Kato GP35 mechanism. I used Smokey Valley stanchions and bent .015 railings for it. Fun times!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 6:21:48 GMT -8
Good progress so far Brian. One thing just sticks out to me though: The P2K/ Walthers GP30 is still OK, but it has issues. 1. Handrails are terrible. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but it's a bit of a head-scratcher how one can complain about the Walthers/P2K handrails (which are quite fine and generally look nice to most, despite suffering from some shrinkage/lean on the longer ones), and turn around and use the uber-pipe-thick Kato handrails and stanchions on a model they go to extra lengths making prototypically accurate. But, to each their own I guess. I understand your head scratching. This is not meant to be a high end model. Nor an RPM show model. It is to run with my club runner models. If it were one of my fine scale model builds, then a lot more would be done to it as well. A lot more. Including scale size handrails, scale size buffer plate, correct tread plate and a myriad of other things. If you were to come to my shop, you would find a lot of other things to scratch your head about. As for handrails. I find it much more acceptable to have over sized handrails than to have thin wavy handrails that curve in. Yes, the Kato GP35 handrails are about double the size of the prototype. I am OK with that for this model and find myself OK with a lot of things lately as long as they properly represent the prototype. Running trains and uniformity and continuity between models is the focus of this model and a lot of what I am building now. Brian |
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Dec 9, 2018 6:40:35 GMT -8
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 9, 2018 6:50:20 GMT -8
Hey Brian, What railroad is this going to be? ALCo type B trucks is Milwaukee Road, GM&O(ICG), Soo Line(WC)? Second, I understand having the same size handrails as the Kato GP35 "runners" but the Proto 2000 handrails are not that bad, but do have some lean. My Soo Line GP30's with scale buffers, stock factory handrails, corrected step wells with Cannon steps, and a bunch more. My modeling isn't in your league as you can see by looking at the photos the models. They are far from perfect.    |
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Post by TBird1958 on Dec 9, 2018 8:18:27 GMT -8
Always my favorite EMD, I have four done right now, they're not going to win any RPM contest but it's good to have them up and running on my buddie's layout. Mine have Kato chassis that have been milled and fish belly sills made from styrene stock, I've added a few details to capture the spirt of D&RGW locomotives, nose headlights, plow etc. Compatibility is perfect with all the rest on my fleet, GP35's, 40's and 40-2's with little to no effort on the programing track. Were Athearn or Scaletrains to make a GP30 I'd no doubt buy several but I wouldn't give up any of the ones I've built, they just work too well - besides, why wait for something that may/may not get made when the parts are all available to make a good model right now? I've had the pleasure of operating my quartet for over a year now  I have "leaders" and "B units" just as the D&RGW did, 3002 is one only a few repainted into the large herald scheme (due to being wrecked and rebuilt) and it kept all of it essential equipment to be able to function as a lead unit. The model has a functional oscillating LED headlight done with Mr. Mayo's products  Someone with a sharp pencil on the Rio Grande must have noticed that locomotives were moving across the system in relatively unchanged consists in the early '70s, the railroad sought to fill out tonnage to suit and have as little terminal downtime as possible. So several groups of locomotives were converted to "B unit" status by the removal of radios, toilets, sunshades etc. All GP35's, early GP40's and about half of the GP30 were so treated. I've done the same thing with my fleet and only certain units are set up as lead units thus saving on headlights and decoder costs. Here's a "B unit", no headlights or sunshades.....  |
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 9, 2018 10:45:06 GMT -8
This turning into a fun thread. I don't really need much for GP30s and 35s, but they're really fun to build. Each of my GP30s has had improvements as I go. The first one is basically stock and custom painted, with a stock P2K mechanism and the circuit board removed. The second is Kato-powered with upgraded fans. Next one will get the fishbelly treatment and detail upgrades. Brian, I understand going for uniformity, but I'm not sure that it would stand out if one happens to be better-detailed than another. When a consist is slamming down the main, you might notice inconsistencies in the scenery before handrail differences in the units. I, too, am curious what your plan is with the AAR-trucked unit. I have one F/P Soo unit waiting its turn in the shops to get repowered with the guts of an RS3...haven't decided how much detail work it will get as it's for the second fleet and my own amusement. Here's my contribution to the party:   And the next ones will be even better... |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Dec 9, 2018 12:00:36 GMT -8
This turning into a fun thread. I don't really need much for GP30s and 35s, but they're really fun to build. Each of my GP30s has had improvements as I go. The first one is basically stock and custom painted, with a stock P2K mechanism and the circuit board removed. The second is Kato-powered with upgraded fans. Next one will get the fishbelly treatment and detail upgrades. Brian, I understand going for uniformity, but I'm not sure that it would stand out if one happens to be better-detailed than another. When a consist is slamming down the main, you might notice inconsistencies in the scenery before handrail differences in the units. I, too, am curious what your plan is with the AAR-trucked unit. I have one F/P Soo unit waiting its turn in the shops to get repowered with the guts of an RS3...haven't decided how much detail work it will get as it's for the second fleet and my own amusement. Here's my contribution to the party: And the next ones will be even better... On your next GP30's don't forget to add the correct Plano plating for the non-dynamic area.  |
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 9, 2018 12:55:05 GMT -8
On your next GP30's don't forget to add the correct Plano plating for the non-dynamic area. Already procured and in the parts bin for the next 2. I just didn't know about them when I built 815. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 13:53:02 GMT -8
And if you want to add a bit more detail that everyone has missed. Add the 1.5" angle iron at the leading edge of the DB inset. It spans from one side to the other of the opening and is flush with the roof.
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 17:41:52 GMT -8
Good progress so far Brian. One thing just sticks out to me though: The P2K/ Walthers GP30 is still OK, but it has issues. 1. Handrails are terrible. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but it's a bit of a head-scratcher how one can complain about the Walthers/P2K handrails (which are quite fine and generally look nice to most, despite suffering from some shrinkage/lean on the longer ones), and turn around and use the uber-pipe-thick Kato handrails and stanchions on a model they go to extra lengths making prototypically accurate. But, to each their own I guess. First, nice job on the models! Do an ICG one! I have to agree with Judge Doom here. I've owned a few of the most recent Proto GP30's and the handrails were absolutely excellent, very warp-free on the Santa Fe units I owned, which also btw were correctly detailed to represent the prototype Santa Fe roadnumbers during a few years in the early 1980's. Believe me, there's lots of models I will take issue with, and lots of models that I recall having handrail issues and QA/QC issues in general, but the recent Proto GP-30 runs were better than...many. I agree--I'd rather see slightly thicker stanchions and/or oversize but straight handrails than the warped, wavy, leaning craptastic handrails so common today. Nothing else screams "toy train" more than the craptastic handrails so common on so many manufacturers' models today (and I'm not picking on Athearn--literally everybody has been guilty except where railings were metal). That is also why I was on an F-unit-only buying kick recently. Imo Athearn's recent Genesis GP7u's and many recent GP-7 and GP-9 series models simply do look outstanding! However, the truth is they are shorter models, and therefore the handrails have somewhat "less" propensity to be warped/leaning/broken/wavy than some other Athearn releases. So--I'll take the good ones I can find and happily use them. If that means my railroad will be flooded with early jeeps or rebuilds, then so be it. At least they look good. I even bought a (gasp) BNSF patch GP7u to go with my two ATSF units. I can never go "newer" than the patch units... |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 19:08:35 GMT -8
The other thing that stands out to me on these are the step wells...the Proto 2K step wells are way too narrow...the steps aren't right at all...probably one of the big reasons that Brian chose to go with the Kato sill unit as a starting point.
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Post by wsor on Dec 9, 2018 22:42:31 GMT -8
Good progress so far Brian. One thing just sticks out to me though: I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but it's a bit of a head-scratcher how one can complain about the Walthers/P2K handrails (which are quite fine and generally look nice to most, despite suffering from some shrinkage/lean on the longer ones), and turn around and use the uber-pipe-thick Kato handrails and stanchions on a model they go to extra lengths making prototypically accurate. But, to each their own I guess. First, nice job on the models! Do an ICG one! I have to agree with Judge Doom here. I've owned a few of the most recent Proto GP30's and the handrails were absolutely excellent, very warp-free on the Santa Fe units I owned, which also btw were correctly detailed to represent the prototype Santa Fe roadnumbers during a few years in the early 1980's. Believe me, there's lots of models I will take issue with, and lots of models that I recall having handrail issues and QA/QC issues in general, but the recent Proto GP-30 runs were better than...many. I agree--I'd rather see slightly thicker stanchions and/or oversize but straight handrails than the warped, wavy, leaning craptastic handrails so common today. Nothing else screams "toy train" more than the craptastic handrails so common on so many manufacturers' models today (and I'm not picking on Athearn--literally everybody has been guilty except where railings were metal). That is also why I was on an F-unit-only buying kick recently. Imo Athearn's recent Genesis GP7u's and many recent GP-7 and GP-9 series models simply do look outstanding! However, the truth is they are shorter models, and therefore the handrails have somewhat "less" propensity to be warped/leaning/broken/wavy than some other Athearn releases. So--I'll take the good ones I can find and happily use them. If that means my railroad will be flooded with early jeeps or rebuilds, then so be it. At least they look good. I even bought a (gasp) BNSF patch GP7u to go with my two ATSF units. I can never go "newer" than the patch units... On GP7s with the bolt-together handrails, They might not be straight anyways:  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2018 22:51:41 GMT -8
Sure, not perfectly straight on the prototype--I get it.
However, few HO models have handrails as straight as the photo immediately above. If the typical HO models generally available looked that good, I'd be thrilled to death! Some of the Genesis GP7/9 variants recently done actually are as nice as the prototype photo above.
Guess I'll have to go with the Rapido units that are going to have metal handrails...
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Post by middledivision on Dec 11, 2018 13:55:05 GMT -8
It seems like Kato has abandoned the HO locomotive market.
Their offerings are a bit crude compared to the latest from Genesis, Rapido and Scale Trains and I don't see them upgrading their products.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 6:40:30 GMT -8
It seems like Kato has abandoned the HO locomotive market. Their offerings are a bit crude compared to the latest from Genesis, Rapido and Scale Trains and I don't see them upgrading their products. Yes. I fully agree with you on your statement about Kato. I believe their market is truly N-Scale. HO being an afterthought. Kato still produces the best HO scale GP35 though. Granted it does have its boogers, but still the best starting point for a 35. Now Scathearn though. I'll give them high props for tooling. Very well done. Their execution though on paint and assembly needs a LOT of work. Their handrails are truly just terrible. Their paint is thick to the point where it destroys the nice tooling they spent so much money on cutting. Also the thick paint causes assembly and fit up issues. The main issues I find with the Kato GP35 are the following. They are fixable, but they should not have to be. 1. Egregious mold parting line mismatch. Pretty much all along where the roof meets the hood sides and same for the nose. These are so much more than what should be acceptable. 2. A really bad rendition of a buffer plate. 3. Handrails that are 2x the size of the prototype. 4. Beveled frame. There are two things I find the best about Kato over any other manufacturer. The motor and the assembly. Their assembly is tops with everything simply snapping together tightly without the need for glue. I understand the move toward making everything on a model to scale. Scale though does not always translate well. Sometimes slightly oversize works and makes the model look right. For instance. I think Atlas handrails look great. They are not scale, but they are also not grossly over sized. They are not wavy and they stand up straight. Also the size works with the material they are molding them in. Bolt heads. Although the scale trains bolt heads on the fan hatch might be to scale. They get lost in the paint. I like the size of Kato bolt heads on the fan plates. They are not to scale, but here also not grossly over sized. they bring across the look that needs to be there. Models are a visual thing. If something is to scale and does not look right, it looses its representation and detracts from the model. There is a fine line to scale and slightly over sized to bring across the proper representation of the subject you are modeling. Certain details you WANT to see. Tread plate for instance. Scale tread plate would almost be invisible in HO scale. Your looking at a detail that sticks up not quite 1/8" (0.001"), is about 1 1/4" (0.014") long by about 1/4" (0.003) wide at the mid point and narrower at the ends. But, we like to see that detail so a slightly over sized rendition is appropriate and to our eyes looks just fine. Again, scale tread plate with the type of paintwork that Scathearn applies pretty much obliterates this detail. Now, like Rapido going to metal handrails. That works to be closer to scale because on the models I have seen, they are straight. When I go to the Amhurst show next year and if Rapido is there, I will have to check to see if their handrails are scale. GE handrails are larger in diameter than EMD handrails. So in this model makers point of view. Slightly over sized is acceptable to get the part or detail to look right. I'll give it to you on the Kato GP35/ SD40 & SD45 handrails. Those are grossly over sized. But on what I am trying to accomplish, they are acceptable to me. Not acceptable on a fine scale models that I build. Scathearn handrails produced to scale are NOT acceptable to me as the curved in stanchions and wavy handrails detract from the model greatly. I think Atlas has the best compromise on handrails and stanchions. Atlas has pretty good tread plate pattern too. The best looking tread plate comes from photo etch though. But that is a model makers thing. Not very applicable to mass production. Brian |
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Post by csxt8400 on Dec 12, 2018 9:13:15 GMT -8
On the topic of handrails, does anyone know if the Athearn SD40 handrails more or less fit for placement on a KATO SD40?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 9:27:32 GMT -8
Brian--
Love the "Scalthearn" comment! It is definitely true, and you are one of the few people that I have seen actually call them out on the issue. Actually, imo, Athearn Genesis' most recent products (ok, excepting the recent challengers which are junk--running boards and other parts fall right off) tend to be better, but that's my opinion based upon my limited exposure to recent models.
The comments about Kato, and the Atlas relative compromise on handrails, I have to agree with. Kato's stuff always fit well together, and their mechanism from nearly 30 years ago, is the best (despite issues with gears on a few products many years back).
Even scale rivet heads disappear under paint film, so most manufacturers, in HO, have to slightly oversize the rivets for them to not disappear.
That's why I like to say that no model can be 100% "correct". They are the best approximation that can be achieved at a reasonable size. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 10:08:45 GMT -8
That's why I like to say that no model can be 100% "correct". They are the best approximation that can be achieved at a reasonable size. EXACTLY my point! Scale does not always translate well. It is part of the design process. I do it all the time when I design 3D printed parts. Of course, I cannot get the fidelity in 3D printed parts than can be had with injection molding. The thought process is basically the same. What will have to be compromised to make the model work and be visually appealing. If blended together well and kept to a minimum. You will have a model that really stands out as high quality and well engineered. Regardless of what a manufacturer does, they are going to be called out on it. Scale handrails and stanchions are going to look bad. You will get called out on it. Slightly over sized handrails. You are going to get called out on them. If it were me making the decision. I would rather be called out on the slightly over sized because the model will still look far better than scale curved and wavy parts. I have never heard or read ANYONE complaining about Atlas stanchions and handrails. Even the upgraded Blue Box handrails look and perform a lot better than their new Genesis versions. Brian |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2018 10:11:29 GMT -8
On the topic of handrails, does anyone know if the Athearn SD40 handrails more or less fit for placement on a KATO SD40? No they do not. Not even close. Pin locations are off as well as pin location in relation to how high the handrail is off the deck. The Kato stanchion pin is about 0.040" diameter. The Athearn stanchion pin is about 0.020" Brian |
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Post by gevohogger on Dec 12, 2018 10:43:56 GMT -8
I think Atlas handrails look great. They are not scale, but they are also not grossly over sized. They are not wavy and they stand up straight. Also the size works with the material they are molding them in. I agree. The Atlas handrails are only slightly oversized but most importantly they are straight. I don't mind the size (I am on the real ones on a daily basis and a severe oversized handrail would immediately be obvious to me!) but the fact they are straight is critical here. The typical Athearn Genesis or most Protos with the railings leaning inwards toward the hood door would never fly on the real railroad. Nothing cries out "toy train" faster than a row of handrail stanchions leaning in towards the hood doors. |
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 12, 2018 20:54:19 GMT -8
On the topic of handrails, does anyone know if the Athearn SD40 handrails more or less fit for placement on a KATO SD40? No they do not. Not even close. Pin locations are off as well as pin location in relation to how high the handrail is off the deck. The Kato stanchion pin is about 0.040" diameter. The Athearn stanchion pin is about 0.020" Brian
Well...not exact but not bad:
Right behind the cab on the fireman's side, I had to do a little cutting and splicing...uglier than I should have done but I had a looming deadline. But it was worth trying as I found the Athearn RTR GP35 handrails were good substitutes on a Kato shell.
The difference is that while my 30s and 35s have been improving as I go, none of them have been built to be 100% models. Usually, I'm aiming around 85% on these and improving as I go. The SD40 was a 98% attempt, with a bunch of extra detailing I wouldn't ordinarily do. Usually. Until I remember how good it looked.
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Post by csxt8400 on Dec 12, 2018 23:12:18 GMT -8
No they do not. Not even close. Pin locations are off as well as pin location in relation to how high the handrail is off the deck. The Kato stanchion pin is about 0.040" diameter. The Athearn stanchion pin is about 0.020" Brian
Well...not exact but not bad:
Right behind the cab on the fireman's side, I had to do a little cutting and splicing...uglier than I should have done but I had a looming deadline. But it was worth trying as I found the Athearn RTR GP35 handrails were good substitutes on a Kato shell.
The difference is that while my 30s and 35s have been improving as I go, none of them have been built to be 100% models. Usually, I'm aiming around 85% on these and improving as I go. The SD40 was a 98% attempt, with a bunch of extra detailing I wouldn't ordinarily do. Usually. Until I remember how good it looked.
The former CGW looks great! Wow. I'm working on CSX YN1 twins right now and am getting closer and closer to shooting some paint, and was thinking I'd live with the handrails. I'm trying not to jump down the rabbit hole and ruin all the other locomotives I have that don't get the red carpet treatment. But if the Athearn handrails line up "good enough" then I may consider that. |
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Post by drolsen on Dec 14, 2018 10:50:09 GMT -8
I understand the move toward making everything on a model to scale. Scale though does not always translate well. Sometimes slightly oversize works and makes the model look right. I definitely agree, Brian. My modeling experience over the past decade, when I can find the time, has been almost exclusively focused on freight cars, so that’s where I’ve run into this. When I try to use correctly-scaled 0.008” wire for grab irons or 0.010” wire for brake piping, they always come out looking anemic or undersized compared to the other details around them. This is especially the case if I’m upgrading a car with molded grab irons and other details. The scale wire ends up looking ridiculous next to the heavy, molded ladder stiles and other parts. I’ve found that it looks more natural, and is more durable, if you increase the size of the wire a bit. On the handrail subject, I’ve seen you get great results by drilling out Kato stanchions and using wire railings with them. I see you only partly did that on this model. Are you just trying to reduce the time and effort on this model? I haven’t been railings like that myself, partly because I’ve never been excited about tackling the complex bends at the stepwells. Can’t wait to see the finished model! Dave |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2018 13:30:50 GMT -8
I understand the move toward making everything on a model to scale. Scale though does not always translate well. Sometimes slightly oversize works and makes the model look right. I definitely agree, Brian. My modeling experience over the past decade, when I can find the time, has been almost exclusively focused on freight cars, so that’s where I’ve run into this. When I try to use correctly-scaled 0.008” wire for grab irons or 0.010” wire for brake piping, they always come out looking anemic or undersized compared to the other details around them. This is especially the case if I’m upgrading a car with molded grab irons and other details. The scale wire ends up looking ridiculous next to the heavy, molded ladder stiles and other parts. I’ve found that it looks more natural, and is more durable, if you increase the size of the wire a bit. On the handrail subject, I’ve seen you get great results by drilling out Kato stanchions and using wire railings with them. I see you only partly did that on this model. Are you just trying to reduce the time and effort on this model? I haven’t been railings like that myself, partly because I’ve never been excited about tackling the complex bends at the stepwells. Can’t wait to see the finished model! Dave Dave, Yes. reduce the time to finish the model. No need to rebuild something that does not require it. The models that will run with this model will have the same size handrails and stanchions. Everything will look uniform as they operate together. Brian |
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Post by lvrr325 on Dec 15, 2018 2:17:47 GMT -8
Frankly I always liked the old Athearn metal handrails. While oversized they're just about indestructible and can even be moved from one shell to another with care.
Have to wonder why they didn't just take that concept and make a closer to scale equivalent. Probably would cost more to make. But they looked better than the fragile plastic handrails on all those Mehano engines from the 70s and 80s.
As mentioned before, it's a model, I'm willing to live with some inaccuracy if it makes it more durable to handling.
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