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Post by jbilbrey on Apr 24, 2019 17:49:52 GMT -8
Slipping under many's radar, Walthers has quietly announced three USRA boxcars and an early 40' wood-sheathed reefer under the “Mainline” series. As such many of the details are molded onto the body shells except thankfully not the vertical brake staffs. All of the cars, except for the double-sheathed boxcar, have fishbelly underframes. The cars also appear to have AB brake gear underneath and two grab irons on the left corners of the sides. For the sake of time & space, I'll only provide links to the undecorated samples, but I have included the car numbers that they are releasing.
The first one is the 40' USRA single-sheathed boxcar, released previously by Accurail (which may be taller than most of the prototypes), Tichy, and Westerfield. The wood grain is somewhere between Accurail and Tichy – not as weathered as on the Accurail but with noticeable gaps not exhibited on the Tichy model. Except for B&O and MILW, I was able to match the numbers released with the appropriate series from the selected railroads. EDIT: Apparently while Walthers is calling this a USRA boxcar, it is in fact an ARA XM-1 boxcar. It makes all the schemes listed below incorrect and limits the usefulness of the model. B&O – 167003, 167004, 167012, 167009 MEC – 36180, 36182, 36188, 36186 (MEC 36001 - 36300) MILW – 715719, 715713, 715710, 715717 (MILW 714000 – 717199, but with differences) NYC – 277361, 277364, 277366, 277362 (376-B NYC 277000-277499) PRR – 38333, 38340, 38881, 38880 (PRR 38045 - 38695) SP – 26686, 26684, 26680, 26683 (SP 26460 - 26959) The second car is the 40' double-sheathed USRA boxcar, released previously by Accurail, Tichy, and Westerfield. I was able to find number series for all the prototypes except for the Union Pacific and Wabash. Note that the model comes with steel doors which may or may not match the prototypes. ATSF – 39381, 39385, 39390, 39388 (ATSF 37001 - 39534) CB&Q – 120600, 120602, 120611, 120606 (CB&Q 120500 - 120999) GN – 24872, 24875, 24880, 24877 (GN 23494 - 24993) TH&B – 4576, 4780, 4795, 4790 (paint matches a Westerfield kit but I don't know the number series) UP – 70002, 70101, 72904, 72900 (no known prototype?) WAB – 80789, 80788, 80787, 80786 (possibly should be WAB 78200 – 78699?) The third car is a the 40' USRA boxcar rebuilt with steel sides. Out of the box, the model closely matches the DTI boxcar and is close to the EJ&E boxcars. I am unsure about the rest. CNW – 3387, 3383, 3388, 3385 DTI – 11542, 11543, 11540, 11545 (DTI 11500 - 11799) EJ&E – 7360, 7362, 7364, 7366 (EJ&E 7300 – 7799 except different doors) GTW – 460305, 460307, 460320, 460316 DL&W – 36302, 36320, 36390, 36388 SLSF – 129529, 129520, 128343, 128340 Finally, they are releasing a 40' Early Reefer, which I know nearly nothing about and won't comment on the accuracy of any of the schemes. ART – 22144, 22145, 22149, 22147 MDT – 3008, 3012, 3020, 3016 NWX – 15126, 15125 15129, 15130 PFE – 31920, 31924, 31922, 31928 SFRD – 25952, 25968, 25959, 25980 Swift Refrigerator Line (SRLX) – 6154, 6166, 6159, 6180
I pulled most of the above information on the prototype cars from Eric Hansmann's "Notes on Designing, Building, and Operating Model Railroads" blog although I went back to some back issues of Railmodel Journal (for the rebuilt boxcar) as well as the Westerfield Models website and the archives for the OOP Sunshine Kits.
These ought to go well with the ex-P1K USRA composite-side gon that has been recently talked about on this forum. It's a shame that they are using the wrong prototype for the numbers chosen for the MILW boxcar as I have seen photos of them in several places in the Southeast. Likewise with no matches to the UP boxcar, I would be hesitant to buy one of those.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 24, 2019 19:29:38 GMT -8
Wow.
We have Rapido releasing some exquisite early NP wood boxcars.
And we have Walthers releasing crap.
This SO reinforces my earlier comment about Walthers going low-end with their Mainline stuff.
TM did this stuff late in the last century. Or maybe not that late. I was kind of experimenting, ya know.
Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 24, 2019 19:44:23 GMT -8
Was I not clear?
Walthers wants to sell me something I rejected more than half a century ago.
YOU are welcome to accept it.
Ed
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Post by theengineshed on Apr 24, 2019 20:19:12 GMT -8
Was I not clear? Walthers wants to sell me something I rejected more than half a century ago. YOU are welcome to accept it. Ed It would have been simpler if you had just said, "my wallet is safe".
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Post by riogrande on Apr 25, 2019 2:41:18 GMT -8
It would have been simpler if you had just said, "my wallet is safe". Well, y'know. Gotta mix it up a bit so it isn't always the same ol same ol.
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Post by lackawanna1223 on Apr 25, 2019 3:23:17 GMT -8
The single sheathed boxcar isn’t a USRA design, it’s an ARA XM-1.
Pity Walthers phoned these in, because I would’ve been all over Proto quality models of these designs.
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Post by jbilbrey on Apr 25, 2019 5:22:07 GMT -8
The single sheathed boxcar isn’t a USRA design, it’s an ARA XM-1. Pity Walthers phoned these in, because I would’ve been all over Proto quality models of these designs. Thanks. I have edited my post to reflect this information. I forgot to count "panels" when I checked the numbers against 5he prototype info. It is a pitty that they botched the prototype chosen so badly. There were far far fewer railroads that used the XM-1 boxcars. I agree that the cars would serve me better if they were in the "Proto" line. While my son will undoubtedly be happy to see some more "old" freight cars, I would rather have seen more-detailed models.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 25, 2019 5:29:27 GMT -8
I know there are a some old-timer modelers who have complained there aren't enough rolling stock being made for them; hopefully this will be a good thing for them, even if not high end models.
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Post by 12bridge on Apr 25, 2019 7:52:28 GMT -8
Walthers Car. 27.95 Rapido Car. 49.95
I really don't understand why so many people have such an issue realizing what Mainline is, and what they are going for. Not everyone wants, or needs 50$ cars. Its pretty damn obvious what sells more these days.
It is no different then Scale Trains with operator cars, or Athearn pushing the old Bluebox cars in the Roundhouse line.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 25, 2019 8:29:59 GMT -8
Walthers Car. 27.95 Rapido Car. 49.95 I really don't understand why so many people have such an issue realizing what Mainline is, and what they are going for. I certainly don't think I am a member of this large group. I DO realize what Mainline is. And I DO realize what they are going for. Seems self-evident. Nor does everyone want or need $300 cars (a not-unusual price for brass freight cars). Since no manufacturers release their sales figures, it's not. Not that I disagree, except for the "damn obvious" part. But it would explain why Walthers has gone in this direction. Would it also explain why no one else has? Well. It IS different. Scale Trains releases new items in their Rivet Counter line roughly as often as in their Operator line. Walthers doesn't. Athearn hasn't created molds for any new Bluebox or Roundhouse in how long? Ed
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Post by NS4122 on Apr 25, 2019 8:35:22 GMT -8
It’s interesting reading the comments complaining about these new Walther’s models. From what I’ve seen over the years, Walthers has never been a producer of “Rivet Counter” models in their “Mainline” series. These models have been produced and aimed at the middle of the road modelers who most likely do not know or care about the minutia of prototype freight car details or locomotive phases. They want models that look reasonably like the real thing at a price they can afford. You would think that the rivet counters here would realize that and comment accordingly or not at all. It is ridiculous to me that some here would expect Walthers to suddenly produce Rapido quality models in their “Mainline” series or hold them to that standard. As an added thought, how many new modelers would the hobby attract if everything was made at the rivet counter level and priced accordingly?
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Post by milgentrains on Apr 25, 2019 9:18:05 GMT -8
It’s interesting reading the comments complaining about these new Walther’s models. From what I’ve seen over the years, Walthers has never been a producer of “Rivet Counter” models in their “Mainline” series. These models have been produced and aimed at the middle of the road modelers who most likely do not know or care about the minutia of prototype freight car details or locomotive phases. They want models that look reasonably like the real thing at a price they can afford. You would think that the rivet counters here would realize that and comment accordingly or not at all. It is ridiculous to me that some here would expect to Walthers to suddenly produce Rapido quality models in their “Mainline” series or hold them to that standard. As an added thought, how many new modelers would the hobby attract if everything was made at the rivet counter level and priced accordingly?
Well said, Sir. Thank you.
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Post by GP40P-2 on Apr 25, 2019 9:23:49 GMT -8
Was I not clear? Walthers wants to sell me something I rejected more than half a century ago. YOU are welcome to accept it. Ed It would have been simpler if you had just said, "my wallet is safe". Or simply that they don't fit in the Toast-R-Oven and/or don't go well with the Crystal Sauce.
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Post by jbilbrey on Apr 25, 2019 9:31:09 GMT -8
It’s interesting reading the comments complaining about these new Walther’s models. From what I’ve seen over the years, Walthers has never been a producer of “Rivet Counter” models in their “Mainline” series. These models have been produced and aimed at the middle of the road modelers who most likely do not know or care about the minutia of prototype freight car details or locomotive phases. They want models that look reasonably like the real thing at a price they can afford. You would think that the rivet counters here would realize that and comment accordingly or not at all. It is ridiculous to me that some here would expect to Walthers to suddenly produce Rapido quality models in their “Mainline” series or hold them to that standard Agreed. I see the "Mainline" products for what they are. They are great "layout" models where quantity is more important than quality. Also, the "chunky" details that some complain are more durable than the more in-scale details. I don't expect them to be "Proto" cars and limit my purchases of "Mainline" cars to those that are more or less correct of the details that are tooled. I also probably would have ordered the B&O and maybe the MILW boxcar before Lackawanna1223 pointed out that the pre-production model and artwork is for a XM-1 boxcar as they look no better and no worse than similar Accurail cars. As nice as the pre-production model looks (Yes, in some ways it is BETTER than the Tichy car. For example, Walthers tooled in the vertical line of rivets that are missing on the Tichy ends.), I cannot ignore the fact that the car is just "wrong". The wrong number and orientation of the "truss members" on the sides can screw up the artwork. For example, compare the artwork for an Accurail WAG boxcar (where they used a USRA boxcar) with the excellent model that was posted on this forum earlier: Accurail WAG boxcar artworkFWIW, I have a friend who is an excellent modeler, or at least was when he was still in the hobby, who is excited about the "screw up" as it gives him a way to make a "quick and dirty" WAG boxcar instead of building the F&C kit. I would not be surprised to see him raid his F&C kit for the decals if he chooses to buy the Walthers car. As an added thought, how many new modelers would the hobby attract if everything was made at the rivet counter level and priced accordingly?
Very few as my eight-year-old son already complains about the cost of the new products, even the "Mainline" cars. The more-detailed Athearn, Atlas, Rapido, etc. cars are simply out of his price range. He is limited to picking up new cars for his own roster at train shows and sales tables while I let him "play" with a select few of my own cars. Finally, I also sent them a message about the mistake on the single-sheathed boxcar, politely pointing out the error, suggesting that they change the description, and hoping they offer a correct USRA boxcar in the future. IMHO, they did pick a good model for their "Mainline" product line as a lot of railroads owned them, and they had a relatively long life - especially if one considers the prototype's use in non-revenue service. But a USRA boxcar, it isn't.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 25, 2019 9:31:12 GMT -8
I don't expect Walthers to "...suddenly produce Rapido quality models in their "Mainline" series...".
I "expect" Walthers to produce these same models in their Proto line, also. Like Scale Trains does, for example. The quotes are there because I don't really "expect" Walthers will actually do that.
As I said earlier, I DO know what the Mainline series is. And I never said Walthers shouldn't produce such items. Nor have I ever said that Athearn shouldn't sell repainted Blue Box stuff from molds made before there was even a blue box to sell the models in.
I am expressing disappointment that Walthers has abandoned making new high-quality models. Mostly. I AM extremely happy with my PROTO undec $90 Jordan spreader KIT. That would be the one that Walthers sold out of. And I look forward to Walthers next effort along this line. If it ever happens.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Apr 25, 2019 9:56:28 GMT -8
For me anyway, I keep my expectations low with Walthers; helps me to avoid disappointment, which with them wouldn't be hard.
Walthers any more seems to be the most inconsistent and irregular of HO model train companies. Anymore manufacturers that seem to be taking up the mantle of detailed model manufacture (Tangent, Moloco, Exactrail, Arrowhead etc.) have been getting the lions share of my hobby budget.
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Post by middledivision on Apr 25, 2019 10:24:30 GMT -8
It’s interesting reading the comments complaining about these new Walther’s models. From what I’ve seen over the years, Walthers has never been a producer of “Rivet Counter” models in their “Mainline” series. These models have been produced and aimed at the middle of the road modelers who most likely do not know or care about the minutia of prototype freight car details or locomotive phases. They want models that look reasonably like the real thing at a price they can afford. You would think that the rivet counters here would realize that and comment accordingly or not at all. It is ridiculous to me that some here would expect to Walthers to suddenly produce Rapido quality models in their “Mainline” series or hold them to that standard. As an added thought, how many new modelers would the hobby attract if everything was made at the rivet counter level and priced accordingly?
Well said. Now prepare yourself for the wrath of the "experts"!
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Post by lackawanna1223 on Apr 25, 2019 10:36:00 GMT -8
I was pointing out my disinterest in these offerings because some of these cars have already been offered in an entry level, affordable version via Accurail (the double sheathed USRA car) and the ARA car (Walthers older tooling via Train Miniatures) and a top of the line model of each type is missing from HO — as well as a RTR USRA single sheathed model. If Walthers sells tons of these, great.
It’s odd how folks can complain about issues on contemporary prototypes but it’s expected and assumed that transition era modellers should just be happy with what we’re given. I get that Walthers Mainline is an affordable good enough model. I was stating that I would’ve preferred the same prototypes in the Proto line with better detailing IMO.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Apr 25, 2019 10:40:30 GMT -8
jblibrey:
>Finally, I also sent them a message about the mistake on the single-sheathed boxcar, politely pointing out the error, suggesting that they change the description, and hoping they offer a correct USRA boxcar in the future.
Who did you contact at Walthers to point out the error? Are they responsive? Will they be making the changes? Please post here if they get back to you.
P.S. Thanks for starting this thread.
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Post by marknycfan on Apr 25, 2019 15:36:37 GMT -8
It's why I buy Accurail kits and a few Bowser pieces now and then
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Post by jbilbrey on Apr 25, 2019 17:45:35 GMT -8
jblibrey: >Finally, I also sent them a message about the mistake on the single-sheathed boxcar, politely pointing out the error, suggesting that they change the description, and hoping they offer a correct USRA boxcar in the future. Who did you contact at Walthers to point out the error? Are they responsive? Will they be making the changes? Please post here if they get back to you. P.S. Thanks for starting this thread. First, you're welcome concerning starting this thread.
Second, I sent contacted them via their website. By this afternoon I had a response back from the Group Product Manager. He agreed that the car is not an USRA boxcar, that they will have a meeting soon to decide what to do with this production run, and that we (the model railroading community) will know the results after the meeting about the decision made. He ended it by writing in part, "while this seems to be a pretty big 'oops!' we mean to make it right or not make it at all." When I hear back on what the ultimate result of my email sent will be, I will post it to the forum.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Apr 26, 2019 7:20:49 GMT -8
Back to the Mainline bashers for a moment: have those who are bashing them actually seen them? The cars I've seen (my buddy has quite a few, I have a couple of CB&Q reefers) are very reasonable indeed -- the roofwalks are much finer than the chunky ones on eg Bluebox cars. Metal wheels. Metal couplers. Couplers that don't droop like many former models with plastic couplers. Even the cast on grabs and ladders are quite finely done compared to many in the past. All-in-all I think they're extremely good value at a street price of around 22 dollars. The nearest competitors are Accurail kits -- and the price ends up being very similar once one factors in metal couplers and wheels.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 26, 2019 7:52:32 GMT -8
I can only assume that I am one of the "Mainline bashers" referred to, above. There surely aren't very many candidates in the topic, are there?
If you read what I wrote in this topic, you will see that I am "bashing" Walthers, not Mainline. And that is because they have essentially abandoned making the type of car I DO want.
I do agree I made some harsh statements about these cars early on, in this topic. But, since you have read my succeeding posts, you will be aware that they were generated by my just stated feelings.
You are right that I haven't "actually seen them". The pictures posted early in the topic do, however, reveal to me that they will not be acceptable. So seeing them "live" will not change that. It's swell that Walthers is making an unacceptable (to me) model "finer". But it's still unacceptable. To me.
Ed
PS: When I first discovered HO, I was put off by the cast-on ladders and grabs that were on my purchases. I still remember, and have, the first car I bought that "featured" free-standing ladders and grabs. That would be a Silver Streak M&StL wood-sided boxcar. And, a few years later, I was thrilled when the Golden Spike reefer came out, with the same attributes. But that kind of car was in the minority back then. So, if you wanted to play with HO trains, you had to accept cast-on detailing. Hey, I think it was Tyco/Mantua who even cast on the roofwalk.
These days, there are, happily, many models sold that don't have these irritating (to me) characteristics.
Also, to me, model trains should try to BE models. And that means what Model Railroader called "slippery ridges" in a cartoon are "less good" models than ones that have free-standing details. Just as code 83 rail is better than code 100. It's a more accurate model. Same for 48" radius curves and superelevating.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Apr 26, 2019 8:20:48 GMT -8
Back to the Mainline bashers for a moment: have those who are bashing them actually seen them? The cars I've seen (my buddy has quite a few, I have a coupler of CB&Q reefers) are very reasonable indeed -- the roofwalks are much finer than the chunky ones on eg Bluebox cars. Metal wheels. Metal couplers. Couplers that don't droop like many former models with plastic couplers. Even the cast on grabs and ladders are quite finely done compared to many in the past. All-in-all I think they're extremely good value at a street price of around 22 dollars. The nearest competitors are Accurail kits -- and the price ends up being very similar once one factors in metal couplers and wheels.
Good summary. It does depend on what the item is, but the Mainline bay window and wide vision cabooses have markers for grab locations to be drilled by the end modeller. There isn't much cast-on stuff for a more serious modeller to remove. Yet other Mainline items like the recent TTX boxcars have cast on end ladders and stirrups that are admittedly on the thick side and difficult to remove. But, they are "ready to run" out of the box, requiring no tools or parts for final assembly.
Walthers cars have come in various lines through the years, such as the old Gold and Platinum with varying levels of detail and add-on parts. I feel the current Mainline and Proto formats strike the right balance between detailed or not. It looks to me like the Mainline cars are geared towards:
-the "I'm not a rivet counter, modelling should be fun!" crowd -the price-conscious crowd that would rather save the money and not have to pay for details they do not want -the Accurail, Scale Trains Operator, Atlas Trainman and Athearn Ready to Roll and present-day basic Athearn/Roundhouse markets
Those who are detail-oriented but do not have a suitable ultra-detailed model of their favourite prototype available, can buy a Mainline car and detail it to their own standards. See my thread on kitbashing a Chessie C27A caboose from a Mainline model in the Completed Projects section of this forum for an example of what is possible with this option.
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Post by riogrande on Apr 26, 2019 10:14:33 GMT -8
In a way, the Walthers Gold Line models like the 90' TOFC flat cars were partially like the ScaleTrains Operator models. The had grab irons left off which could be added by the modeler, except they included the metal grab irons. But they were still nicer models than say Mainline/Accurail models because there wasn't modeled on stuff to be shaved off and touched up etc. for those wanting better detail.
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Post by marknycfan on Apr 28, 2019 14:46:11 GMT -8
Mainline is similar to Bachmann Silver Series, some are as good or better than Athearn MDC cars, some are toy like, just sift through them
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 28, 2019 15:19:56 GMT -8
I do! I do! I've bought some of the new intermodal MAINLINE models. Yes, really. That's because there's only, what, 8 cast-on grabs to remove. And it's not terribly likely someone is going to make better quality versions. True, I'd prefer to spend an extra $15 to NOT have to do it. But, as I said, that's likely not going to be an option.
Now, let's look at the new Walthers Mainline double sheathed USRA box. HOW many grabs to remove? HOW hard is it to do it properly? Nope, I'll be waiting for Rapido to think on the sales of their NP boxcar, and to realize the sales potential of a USRA box.
Yes: Sifting.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Apr 28, 2019 16:19:20 GMT -8
I'd like to sift a Mainline MTTX 60' flat car if Walthers sees fit to run some more for us who still want some.
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Post by brakie on Apr 28, 2019 16:56:01 GMT -8
I like Walthers tank cars(modern),centerbeams and bulkheads not so much their other cars. I have several Walters coil cars as well.
As I said elsewhere these cars fits in with my "super" car fleet especially while switching and eyeballin' the car numbers.
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Post by brakie on Apr 28, 2019 17:05:59 GMT -8
Mainline is similar to Bachmann Silver Series, some are as good or better than Athearn MDC cars, some are toy like, just sift through them Indeed and they are still a foot to wide. Bachmann's "Silver Series" 50' ACF boxcar is a knock off of Athearns BB ACF(aka Railbox) 50' box
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