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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2019 12:09:07 GMT -8
Considering that the guy who started the project was apparently shown the door shortly after announcement, it might just be a QAQC problem that originated in Ontario, not China. We only have rumours as to what happened, though he did quickly show up working for a model train maker in the UK (well, technically Ireland but they are making UK models) so it could have also been a desire to return to the UK. We will likely never know the truth. But just like Athearn had the issue with dealing with tooling on a recent announcement, it is possible depending on the exact circumstances that the problem originated at Rapido headquarters for any number of reasons. All the really matters is that Rapido will be making it right.
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 8, 2019 18:03:30 GMT -8
Photos by Rapido:
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Post by surlyknuckle on Nov 8, 2019 20:32:08 GMT -8
I see a couple of things I'm worried about ( and of course it appears too late to fix)
- Wrong truck frame part
- The SBD version has an extra MU plug on the model. Ironically, the SP version has the right part.
- The inside edges of the step wells on the model flare outward to meet the bottom of the sill, where the prototype stairwell is straight and the sill angles inwards. That's pretty huge to me.
- At least on the SBD model, the builder's plate is too low (bottom should be flush w/yellow stripe)
As an aside, it looks like the SBD prototypes were delivered with K5LAs, but the 2 &4 bells were turned around fairly early on matching the model. Not an issue, just something that if someone was modeling pretty much the first year of service, they should probably swap out the horn.
As unhappy about the truck frames as I am, at least we're supposedly getting replacement parts which is good. But it's gonna be a b!tch trying to get rid of that extra MU plug on a finished model. And it's even worse that the correct part was tooled, just not used. And I don't know what to do about the step wells. That's really not good...especially since didn't they have access to a TTI B36-7 for reference material?
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 8, 2019 21:10:07 GMT -8
We covered the stepwells in the thread from last week.
TL;DR of that thread is that everyone who isn’t a SBD or CSX enthusiast fully expects us to shut up, stop whining, feel fortunate for what we get, and learn to do some actual modeling.
But if you’re upset about your new ATSF loco not being factory fresh red, that’s perfectly okay.
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Post by carrman on Nov 8, 2019 23:09:20 GMT -8
Have they posted the pics of the SP versions? Do they have the wrong ruck sideframes too? CSX3305, I got blown off about the SP UDE lights on the RS11's so don't feel bad.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 6:16:12 GMT -8
- The inside edges of the step wells on the model flare outward to meet the bottom of the sill, where the prototype stairwell is straight and the sill angles inwards. That's pretty huge to me. And I don't know what to do about the step wells. That's really not good...especially since didn't they have access to a TTI B36-7 for reference material?
The problem with the step wells is that there are 2 different versions, and the cost of tooling up a second frame would have been too much given the already expensive tooling to account for the variations that they were doing. See the Rapido response from the other thread:
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 6:24:51 GMT -8
We covered the stepwells in the thread from last week. TL;DR of that thread is that everyone who isn’t a SBD or CSX enthusiast fully expects us to shut up, stop whining, feel fortunate for what we get, and learn to do some actual modeling. But if you’re upset about your new ATSF loco not being factory fresh red, that’s perfectly okay.
Not true, at least from my perspective.
Complaining about paint colours is one things, given that it really doesn't cost much extra to get the colour correct.
On the other hand ignoring the realities of tooling costs to continually complain about a small part of the model does get to be annoying. It's not as though they got the length of the hood wrong or some other major thing but rather that the financial limitations of bringing the model to market meant that a line had to be drawn on the most expensive part of making a model (which is the tooling of the molds).
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Post by nstophat on Nov 9, 2019 6:28:28 GMT -8
- The inside edges of the step wells on the model flare outward to meet the bottom of the sill, where the prototype stairwell is straight and the sill angles inwards. That's pretty huge to me. And I don't know what to do about the step wells. That's really not good...especially since didn't they have access to a TTI B36-7 for reference material?
The problem with the step wells is that there are 2 different versions, and the cost of tooling up a second frame would have been too much given the already expensive tooling to account for the variations that they were doing. See the Rapido response from the other thread:
And yet of the 230 prototype units that were built, 120 units (or some 52%) had the stairwell arrangements that were not done....
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 6:36:05 GMT -8
The problem with the step wells is that there are 2 different versions, and the cost of tooling up a second frame would have been too much given the already expensive tooling to account for the variations that they were doing. See the Rapido response from the other thread:
And yet of the 230 prototype units that were built, 120 units (or some 52%) had the stairwell arrangements that were not done....
And while I don't have any experience, the common wisdom that seems to be confirmed periodically by at least some manufacturers is that SP/SF outsell most other prototype railroads. So while you are correct that CSX/SBD have a very slight edge on the prototype numbers it isn't even going to be close on the number of models sold.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 9, 2019 6:38:41 GMT -8
We covered the stepwells in the thread from last week. TL;DR of that thread is that everyone who isn’t a SBD or CSX enthusiast fully expects us to shut up, stop whining, feel fortunate for what we get, and learn to do some actual modeling. But if you’re upset about your new ATSF loco not being factory fresh red, that’s perfectly okay. Not true, at least from my perspective. Complaining about paint colours is one things, given that it really doesn't cost much extra to get the colour correct. On the other hand ignoring the realities of tooling costs to continually complain about a small part of the model does get to be annoying. It's not as though they got the length of the hood wrong or some other major thing but rather that the financial limitations of bringing the model to market meant that a line had to be drawn on the most expensive part of making a model (which is the tooling of the molds). For the umpteenth time, they traveled a considerable distance to **3D SCAN A FORMER CSX UNIT**. Then apparently modified the CAD work to match the other roads. And made no effort to reflect this in their advertising. This is what nobody seems to grasp. I never ragged on the Atlas B30-7 units for not matching. Because Atlas never made any claims that implied they’d be doing that stepwell.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 6:43:26 GMT -8
You know...I was going to be on the bandwagon...and do the rah-rah thing...but I can't see why they would not tool the correct step well for the SBD and later CSX units...especially when they account for over half of the production of the total units mades by GE? What the heck?
I have been on here asking and asking for a B23-7...suddenly...I might be glad to make due with the Atlas unit...I can get them for $60 each...or so...and just paint them blue...and forget about it.
As for the ScaleTrains thing...no comment. I have three undec flat cars from them...and that's it. If they make a GP28-30-35...meh...I'll stick with Kato.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 9, 2019 6:47:08 GMT -8
...and btw I’m still waiting for Fitch’s take on what he’d think about hypothetical Rio Grande GP30’s with no Gyralites...
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Post by 690 on Nov 9, 2019 7:51:50 GMT -8
If I had to guess, while the SBD/CSX units accounted for over half the production run, they had less paint scheme variations than the rest of production.
That said, if it’s as big of an issue to you as you’ve been making it out to be, don’t buy them. Pretty simple. In the meantime, you can stop ranting about the steps; we get it, they’re not correct for what you’re modeling, but at this point you’re beating a dead horse. Rapido has provided their answer regarding the steps, there’s not much else that can be done now.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 9, 2019 8:11:04 GMT -8
So misleading advertising isn’t an issue to most people anymore. Got it.
I’m gonna carry this torch for as long as I see fit. Complain about “complaining” all you want.
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 9, 2019 9:52:24 GMT -8
So misleading advertising isn’t an issue to most people anymore. Got it. I’m gonna carry this torch for as long as I see fit. Complain about “complaining” all you want. This is what is really bothering me in an era where you must pre-order based on an announcement and artwork, or miss out. We base ordering decisions on these announcements and, combined with a company's reputation for quality, commit significant dollars for ever more faithful representations of the real thing. This is the first major miss in my experience with a Rapido product. The viciously ignorant dismissals of people who legitimately question what we are actually paying for and getting puzzle me. These aren't pieces of artwork on display by an individual artist, they are mass produced model trains being billed and sold under heavy marketing claims of extreme accuracy and detail. I put money down for what is advertised and expect to get it, nothing more or less. Highlight up front that tooling decisions were made to keep production profitable and those of us who lost out on that proverbial coin flip can make a decision not to commit buying dollars. To come out after the fact, insulting those who question the intentional inaccuracies that were not disclosed, smacks of poor ethics. Just a couple of millimeters off on a stepwell for a major spotting feature. Not at all significant? If this matters to you as a CSX modeler, then go get a crying towel? Clearly state as much on the initial product announcement vice after the fact. The sycophants piling on to silence those who have a financial stake in a product of questionable accuracy is the cherry on top. We have to make up our minds here. If we pay a premium for scale accuracy, then scale accuracy matters. There are plenty of details in HO where a couple of millimeters make a big difference. Shift a nose logo 2mm left or right. Place a nose headlight 2mm higher or lower than where it should be. Make a set of cab windows 2mm further apart or closer together. Don't like the result? You're being obtuse for noting it and you should not discuss it on a discussion forum. Bollocks. Why bother with 3D scans? Why advertise extreme detail and accuracy? Why not go "Operator" level for everything? We know why. I am on the hook for my SBD and CSX units. I now know the SBD unit has additional issues based on production miscues (MU details). I should be pleased to pay a premium for unadvertised detail compromises or risk being denigrated. Roger that. I hope the B36-7 is an anomaly in an otherwise stellar track record for Rapido. I'll claim my units, try to obtain correct sideframes, and attempt to fix what can be fixed. Unfortunately, I will take a lot less for granted going forward in this hobby. Caveat emptor. -Mike
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 9, 2019 9:59:17 GMT -8
The vitriol of any posters on this and other forums is what disturbs me. Name calling and such is so childish.
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Post by cprail1986 on Nov 9, 2019 10:24:53 GMT -8
I'm interested to know of those who have been ranting on and on about their dissatisfaction with these models and rapidos misleading advertising who is going to actually purchase them and I'm eagerly waiting for the posts on upgrading them
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Post by csxt8400 on Nov 9, 2019 10:25:01 GMT -8
So misleading advertising isn’t an issue to most people anymore. Got it. I’m gonna carry this torch for as long as I see fit. Complain about “complaining” all you want. This is what is really bothering me in an era where you must pre-order based on an announcement and artwork, or miss out. We base ordering decisions on these announcements and, combined with a company's reputation for quality, commit significant dollars for ever more faithful representations of the real thing. This is the first major miss in my experience with a Rapido product. The viciously ignorant dismissals of people who legitimately question what we are actually paying for and getting puzzle me. These aren't pieces of artwork on display by an individual artist, they are mass produced model trains being billed and sold under heavy marketing claims of extreme accuracy and detail. I put money down for what is advertised and expect to get it, nothing more or less. Highlight up front that tooling decisions were made to keep production profitable and those of us who lost out on that proverbial coin flip can make a decision not to commit buying dollars. To come out after the fact, insulting those who question the intentional inaccuracies that were not disclosed, smacks of poor ethics. Just a couple of millimeters off on a stepwell for a major spotting feature. Not at all significant? If this matters to you as a CSX modeler, then go get a crying towel? Clearly state as much on the initial product announcement vice after the fact. The sycophants piling on to silence those who have a financial stake in a product of questionable accuracy is the cherry on top. We have to make up our minds here. If we pay a premium for scale accuracy, then scale accuracy matters. There are plenty of details in HO where a couple of millimeters make a big difference. Shift a nose logo 2mm left or right. Place a nose headlight 2mm higher or lower than where it should be. Make a set of cab windows 2mm further apart or closer together. Don't like the result? You're being obtuse for noting it and you should not discuss it on a discussion forum. Bollocks. Why bother with 3D scans? Why advertise extreme detail and accuracy? Why not go "Operator" level for everything? We know why. I am on the hook for my SBD and CSX units. I now know the SBD unit has additional issues based on production miscues (MU details). I should be pleased to pay a premium for unadvertised detail compromises or risk being denigrated. Roger that. I hope the B36-7 is an anomaly in an otherwise stellar track record for Rapido. I'll claim my units, try to obtain correct sideframes, and attempt to fix what can be fixed. Unfortunately, I will take a lot less for granted going forward in this hobby. Caveat emptor. -Mike Well said. I'm on the hook for my two, one Conrail so I get off 50/50 with the step/pilot issue.
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Post by csxt8400 on Nov 9, 2019 10:27:42 GMT -8
I'm interested to know of those who have been ranting on and on about their dissatisfaction with these models and rapidos misleading advertising who is going to actually purchase them and I'm eagerly waiting for the posts on upgrading them I dont see myself fixing the pilot issue. I will swap sideframes and I will add back all the lettering detail that was left off my CSX version. I'm not real enthused about getting these anymore. I need them to fill a void and that's what they will do, albeit less impressive than I figured they would.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 9, 2019 10:45:04 GMT -8
So at what price point does mediocrity become a no-go? If these were 75 dollars a piece street price, I wouldn’t see as big an issue with taking an X-acto and needle files to them.
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Post by delta767332er on Nov 9, 2019 10:54:17 GMT -8
We only have rumours as to what happened, though he did quickly show up working for a model train maker in the UK (well, technically Ireland but they are making UK models) so it could have also been a desire to return to the UK. We will likely never know the truth. But just like Athearn had the issue with dealing with tooling on a recent announcement, it is possible depending on the exact circumstances that the problem originated at Rapido headquarters for any number of reasons. All the really matters is that Rapido will be making it right. Right, just because YOU don’t understand what happened, means no one else does.
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Post by nstophat on Nov 9, 2019 13:22:50 GMT -8
If I had to guess, while the SBD/CSX units accounted for over half the production run, they had less paint scheme variations than the rest of production. That said, if it’s as big of an issue to you as you’ve been making it out to be, don’t buy them. Pretty simple. In the meantime, you can stop ranting about the steps; we get it, they’re not correct for what you’re modeling, but at this point you’re beating a dead horse. Rapido has provided their answer regarding the steps, there’s not much else that can be done now. So to answer your question on order count... Seaboard System - 120 units (one of which was 3D scanned, one of the TTI units) Conrail - 60 units ATSF - 16 units SP - 16 units Cerrjon Coal (Columbia) - 8 units Southern - 6 units Cotton Belt - 4 units EDIT: Just got back to the house and looked through Kurt Reisweber's CSX Power in Color, Vol. 2 - 4 Axle GE's from Predecessor Roads, which shows 11 variations of CSX Paint and lettering schemes, including one TTI scheme that is not included in what Rapido has offered. As many paint variations that existed in CSX's early life, 10 paint and lettering variations is a LOW number. I believe that there also is another TTI scheme that could be done as well, which would make 4 TTI's. Russ Goodwin Oakwood, GA
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 9, 2019 13:32:20 GMT -8
And the Cotton Belts don’t even really count, since they’re basically mid-phase B30-7 carbodies.
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Post by nstophat on Nov 9, 2019 17:07:59 GMT -8
I'm interested to know of those who have been ranting on and on about their dissatisfaction with these models and rapidos misleading advertising who is going to actually purchase them and I'm eagerly waiting for the posts on upgrading them I am picking up the 7 units I have on order, which include 4 TTI'S and a Seaboard System unit. I will modify all 5 of them and will add the 4 lifting holes on that Rapido, rigthfully, didn't add on the Southern and NS units, which I ordered as well. Russ Goodwin Oakwood, GA
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Nov 10, 2019 5:09:56 GMT -8
What bugs me the most about all this is that almost all of you who are extremely vocal with your criticisms can't be bothered to sign your posts with your full real name -- and preferably also location.
Cowards!
Jason, Bill, formerly Gareth (when he was still working for Rapido), and others all sign their posts with their real names: why can't you?
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Post by carrman on Nov 10, 2019 8:14:27 GMT -8
What bugs me the most about all this is that almost all of you who are extremely vocal with your criticisms can't be bothered to sign your posts with your full real name -- and preferably also location. Cowards! Jason, Bill, formerly Gareth (when he was still working for Rapido), and others all sign their posts with their real names: why can't you? That's a BS post Colin. What bothers me is all of the "new members" that seem to keep popping up and trying to attack those posting the criticisms of the model. Dave
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Post by csxt8400 on Nov 10, 2019 8:18:19 GMT -8
What bugs me the most about all this is that almost all of you who are extremely vocal with your criticisms can't be bothered to sign your posts with your full real name -- and preferably also location. Cowards! Jason, Bill, formerly Gareth (when he was still working for Rapido), and others all sign their posts with their real names: why can't you? Alec Holmes Minnesota. Now that is out of the way, everything I've said can be validated again.
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Post by cannon on Nov 10, 2019 8:26:43 GMT -8
What bugs me the most about all this is that almost all of you who are extremely vocal with your criticisms can't be bothered to sign your posts with your full real name -- and preferably also location. Cowards! Jason, Bill, formerly Gareth (when he was still working for Rapido), and others all sign their posts with their real names: why can't you? That's a BS post Colin. What bothers me is all of the "new members" that seem to keep popping up and trying to attack those posting the criticisms of the model. Dave Both Colin and Dave Carr are right on. Hiding behind a critical post is BS. Either sign your name or keep quiet. Dave Hussey Cannon and Company
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 10, 2019 8:53:40 GMT -8
What bugs me the most about all this is that almost all of you who are extremely vocal with your criticisms can't be bothered to sign your posts with your full real name -- and preferably also location. Cowards! Jason, Bill, formerly Gareth (when he was still working for Rapido), and others all sign their posts with their real names: why can't you? How would knowing their names mean anything or add to the discussion? I don’t care one bit what their names are as I am sure I don’t know them personally. They can sign their names any way they want, who would know if it’s real or made up? How do we know your name is really Colin’t Hart? For what it’s worth I try to stay as anonymous as I can on the internet. The less my name is out there the better. I really don’t want the world to know I might have a house full of expensive trains. Clark W Griswold Wallyworld, CA
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Post by sgoti on Nov 10, 2019 12:24:04 GMT -8
What bugs me the most about all this is that almost all of you who are extremely vocal with your criticisms can't be bothered to sign your posts with your full real name -- and preferably also location. Why does name and "preferably also location" matter? Is someone's point less valid because of where they live? I judge the validity (or idiocy) of a post based on the content, regardless of whether it's signed "Tr@iNguYSD30rulez" or "Bill McNeal, New York, NY". Trust me, there's been plenty of good and bad from signers and pseudonym-ers alike...
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