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Post by Donnell Wells on Nov 14, 2019 13:05:19 GMT -8
Atlas got it (nose corner radius) way too sharp on their b23-7, I guess Rapido went the other way and got it too broad. I noticed that as well, but back then I wasn't looking to add B23-7s to my roster, so I didn't pay it that much attention. Atlas did get it right on the C30-7 though. Donnell
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Post by carrman on Nov 14, 2019 18:10:24 GMT -8
And the SP versions have the warning lights set up to flash as Gyralights instead of the Oscitrol headlights the prototype had. Saw this on the Rapido unboxing video.
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Post by delta767332er on Nov 14, 2019 23:07:17 GMT -8
Just because you repeat the same baseless accusation again and again, doesn’t make it true. Random new guy with 7 GD posts shows up telling us “Rapido made a decision not to tool the right sill! It’s a fact!!!1”. Yeah, keep on dreaming! YOU are muddying the waters. Maybe I only have 7 "GD" posts because I was busy helping with the development of the model and know so much more than you think I do, apparently about many things. It doesn't take much intelligence to not equate post count to knowledge on a given subject. It's frustrating that's above your head. As it is, the fact of the stepwell is not baseless or an accusation. It is first-person factual information, restated and confirmed by them publicly as was recently pointed out since my last post. I don't know why it's so hard for you to take the subtle hint that I KNOW. Your hesitancy to believe facts doesn't make them untrue. There's no dreaming involved. Other than you dreaming that one's number of posts on this forum defines their randomness, knowledge, or involvement in the hobby, or here's another hint, their involvement in a certain project. There's a reason I haven't responded again until just now. Hint: it's not baseless or random. I was busy contributing to the hobby in a way other than shitposting on here (you're welcome) and lo and behold doing actual modeling instead of talking-head about it. I'm glad you're so proud of your post count. How's your modeling coming? Wanna compare models? Industry knowledge? Hobby knowledge? Freight car knowledge? Locomotive knowledge? Resources? IQ? Also, as is the theme of this awesome thread, take your post count and GFY. Or as some of us are starting to like to say, Go CSX3305 yourself! Also also, no one knows why you're talking about sills. So sharp. So sharp. Brian Bennnett
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Post by delta767332er on Nov 14, 2019 23:24:22 GMT -8
I went back and looked at the nose radii and agree they look too broad/long. The "flat" area of the nose (I realize it's curved, but I mean the front portion not affected by cornering away to the sides or top.) on the prototype extends well outside and above the class lights, while on the model, this area seems to terminate with the class lights at the extreme upper corners of this "flat" area. If it is indeed off, I think I'm going to categorize it as "it caught my eye" but doesn't ruin the overall look of the model, so probably won't lose any sleep over it, though admittedly I'm much more of a La Grange guy than an Erie guy. Of course, the potential frustration is compounded by the issues already discussed here. And things like this tend to gnaw at you and become more evident once you know about them....
If it is indeed off, it's interesting to think about how the process of converting a 3D scan to CAD and then a model can still lead to fundamental errors in shape.
I actually have a little more insight shared in confidence, but can say it was designed this way; not any sort of last-minute tooling error that wasn't caught. If indeed it's off. I'm pretty sure it is, but not 100% sure until the models are in hand.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 15, 2019 2:06:09 GMT -8
Sounds like I’m becoming famous. LOL
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Post by sd80mac on Nov 15, 2019 6:25:41 GMT -8
Just because you repeat the same baseless accusation again and again, doesn’t make it true. Random new guy with 7 GD posts shows up telling us “Rapido made a decision not to tool the right sill! It’s a fact!!!1”. Yeah, keep on dreaming! YOU are muddying the waters. Maybe I only have 7 "GD" posts because I was busy helping with the development of the model and know so much more than you think I do, apparently about many things. It doesn't take much intelligence to not equate post count to knowledge on a given subject. It's frustrating that's above your head. As it is, the fact of the stepwell is not baseless or an accusation. It is first-person factual information, restated and confirmed by them publicly as was recently pointed out since my last post. I don't know why it's so hard for you to take the subtle hint that I KNOW. Your hesitancy to believe facts doesn't make them untrue. There's no dreaming involved. Other than you dreaming that one's number of posts on this forum defines their randomness, knowledge, or involvement in the hobby, or here's another hint, their involvement in a certain project. There's a reason I haven't responded again until just now. Hint: it's not baseless or random. I was busy contributing to the hobby in a way other than shitposting on here (you're welcome) and lo and behold doing actual modeling instead of talking-head about it. I'm glad you're so proud of your post count. How's your modeling coming? Wanna compare models? Industry knowledge? Hobby knowledge? Freight car knowledge? Locomotive knowledge? Resources? IQ? Also, as is the theme of this awesome thread, take your post count and GFY. Or as some of us are starting to like to say, Go CSX3305 yourself! Also also, no one knows why you're talking about sills. So sharp. So sharp. Brian Bennnett Edit: Ok, ok, I've had my fun. I will cease pushing your buttons, I apologize.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 15, 2019 6:35:02 GMT -8
If sd80mac ever manages to go a full 24 hours without throwing gasoline on the flames and making a quick retreat, that’s the day I’m gonna run out and buy a lottery ticket. The odds are similar.
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Post by markfj on Nov 15, 2019 7:54:46 GMT -8
So, do locomotives like the U30C and C30-7 have the same nose (basically) as the B36-7? The contours look pretty well defined in these photos, but I wouldn’t say they have a sharp radius where two panels meet. I like the photo of 6600 because it was taken at a bit of an unusual angle. (Photo source: Modern Locomotives High Horsepower Diesels by Brian Solomon): Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA
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Post by carrman on Nov 15, 2019 8:34:14 GMT -8
What is really the issue here is that people are pointing out that Rapido is no better than any of the other top tier model companies. For all the chest beating about prototype fidelity, they take shortcuts in the interest of economics like any of the other top companies do. They are a top company like ST, Athearn/Genesis, etc but they are not as perfect as folks want to believe. People don't want to hear that.
Dave
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Post by sd80mac on Nov 15, 2019 8:36:55 GMT -8
If sd80mac ever manages to go a full 24 hours without throwing gasoline on the flames and making a quick retreat, that’s the day I’m gonna run out and buy a lottery ticket. The odds are similar. *shrug*
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Post by Donnell Wells on Nov 15, 2019 9:16:38 GMT -8
So, do locomotives like the U30C and C30-7 have the same nose (basically) as the B36-7? The contours look pretty well defined in these photos, but I wouldn’t say they have a sharp radius where two panels meet. I like the photo of 6600 because it was taken at a bit of an unusual angle. Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA Hello Mark, The round nose started out on the U-boats, and was carried on through the Dash 7 series. The Dash 8 is when (and where) everything changed... Donnell
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Post by schroed2 on Nov 15, 2019 9:33:01 GMT -8
What is really the issue here is that people are pointing out that Rapido is no better than any of the other top tier model companies. For all the chest beating about prototype fidelity, they take shortcuts in the interest of economics like any of the other top companies do. They are a top company like ST, Athearn/Genesis, etc but they are not as perfect as folks want to believe. People don't want to hear that. Dave the issue is more likely that there are two groups (the "fanboys" AND the other side) who put in far too much in this topic (especially for aspects based on the advertisments and what was interpreted into it) and are far too serious about it. I agree with your assessment of Rapido as a "normal" company in terms of product quality and related topics (including possibly unfortunate business decisions), but to make this an recurring issue with a lot of noise is a bit over the top in my opinion... Maybe this is another occassion where being non-native in english helps in not taking things (including over-the-top advertisments) too serious...a lot from BOTH sides comes out as, well, cow dung... Bernd Adelsdorf, Germany
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Post by thebessemerkid on Nov 15, 2019 9:41:42 GMT -8
There was definitely a change in the traditional GE short nose from the flat-topped U25C to the later sloped-top noses (same woth U25B, but longer nose of course)
There are a couple things at play here:
The vertical sloping of the front of the nose.
The broad flat horizontal radius of the front of the nose (the top also has a broad flat radius left to right, looking at the front of the loco)
The blending corner radii as the multiple slopes and broad radii are melded together. The corner radii was the problem with the Genesis GP7/9 models (appears too sharp)
No idea if the 3D scanner has challenges with complex, possibly reflective radii, or the CAD software doing unexpected things with B-splines.
Pictures of course are a good judge, short of actual field measurementa.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 15, 2019 9:45:21 GMT -8
I’ll ask again. At what price point are we gonna stop forgiving these types of errors? 400 dollars per unit? 500 dollars per unit? Is that what it will take to get some to stop brushing us off with, “ Ah relax guys, it’s just a toy train after all” ....?
If you’re advertising yourself as hyper accurate, then you need to be hyper accurate. End of story.
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 15, 2019 9:48:08 GMT -8
What is really the issue here is that people are pointing out that Rapido is no better than any of the other top tier model companies. For all the chest beating about prototype fidelity, they take shortcuts in the interest of economics like any of the other top companies do. They are a top company like ST, Athearn/Genesis, etc but they are not as perfect as folks want to believe. People don't want to hear that. Dave Maybe its not that people don't want to hear it, but maybe it is the way it is presented. Imperfections that are described in over exaggerated terms like "awful", "horrible", "terrible", "god awful", "looks like a goiter" etc. tend to give off the impression that someone has an axe to grind.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Nov 15, 2019 9:49:27 GMT -8
Let's see if some pics from roughly the same perspective provide insight: The Conrail unit is notable as it almost appears the radius connecting the front and side panels is variable: tighter at the top, wider at the bottom. Which sort of makes sense if you think about the multiple curves involved. If one hasn't worked with say Solidworks, they might not be aware of the challenges in modelling complex surfaces. Especially when draft is added in.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 15, 2019 9:52:42 GMT -8
Atlas got it (nose corner radius) way too sharp on their b23-7, I guess Rapido went the other way and got it too broad. I noticed that as well, but back then I wasn't looking to add B23-7s to my roster, so I didn't pay it that much attention. Atlas did get it right on the C30-7 though. Donnell My eyes prefer the Atlas U23B nose most of all. I used it for my B36-7 kitbash I started several years ago but put on the backburner (and which will now get brought to the forefront again, given recent developments....)
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Post by thebessemerkid on Nov 15, 2019 10:19:32 GMT -8
Adding a couple more pics (if there are production Rapido pics from the same perspective as the series of prototype ones, please add them) Note the apparent difference between these two! The foreground nose looks like it has a broader radii where the sides and top merge together! TTI 5815. Was this the unit scanned? Rapido preproduction BLI C30-7 BLI, please, make undecs and without the Paragon decoder, you will sell many, please! Another factor to consider is even if a 3D scanner capfures a perfect model of a *specific* loomotive, designers (or sometimes programs automatically) will add draft for injection molding. This can make a complex curved part look "off" The Rapido cab looks lovely. If Rapido promises to make B36 cabs available separately, I'll offer my theory on what's possibly awry with some of the motors. (Retired EE who dealt with a magnetics problem on parts sourced from China a few years back)
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Post by thebessemerkid on Nov 15, 2019 10:38:29 GMT -8
U23B vs Atlas model It's also worthwhile to think about how the real GE noses were fabricated by sheetmetal workers. I suspect the large pieces were rolled by hand, then assembled in a jig with the missing parts rolled there to fit. Everything then gets welded and ground, then muscled into place. Do remember completed widecabs sitting out in the yard in Erie in the 90's. Maybe at some point GE outsourced sheetmetal work like cabs? Could explain some differences if the blueprints were vague.
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Post by carrman on Nov 15, 2019 10:40:52 GMT -8
What is really the issue here is that people are pointing out that Rapido is no better than any of the other top tier model companies. For all the chest beating about prototype fidelity, they take shortcuts in the interest of economics like any of the other top companies do. They are a top company like ST, Athearn/Genesis, etc but they are not as perfect as folks want to believe. People don't want to hear that. Dave Maybe its not that people don't want to hear it, but maybe it is the way it is presented. Imperfections that are described in over exaggerated terms like "awful", "horrible", "terrible", "god awful", "looks like a goiter" etc. tend to give off the impression that someone has an axe to grind. I have zero axe to grind other than if you say you are prototypically accurate, then be accurate! And, the Mars UDE on the SP RS11 DOES look like a goiter. Dave
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Post by Artur on Nov 15, 2019 11:28:38 GMT -8
Suddenly everyone is an expert in visually detecting the angels and variations of scale models compared to the prototype. It reminds me of all the BS fish stories I’ve heard in my life.
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Post by canrailfan on Nov 15, 2019 11:58:21 GMT -8
Personally, I'll wait until I have my model in hand to make any comparisons.
Photos can be very unreliable for judging angles and curves. Lens distortion and lighting highlights can often cause problems in how something looks in a photo.
This doesn't apply to the stepwell issue but may be why the nose contour appears to be off.
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Post by nstophat on Nov 15, 2019 14:02:48 GMT -8
Adding a couple more pics (if there are production Rapido pics from the same perspective as the series of prototype ones, please add them) Note the apparent difference between these two! The foreground nose looks like it has a broader radii where the sides and top merge together! TTI 5815. Was this the unit scanned? Rapido preproduction BLI C30-7 BLI, please, make undecs and without the Paragon decoder, you will sell many, please! Another factor to consider is even if a 3D scanner capfures a perfect model of a *specific* loomotive, designers (or sometimes programs automatically) will add draft for injection molding. This can make a complex curved part look "off" The Rapido cab looks lovely. If Rapido promises to make B36 cabs available separately, I'll offer my theory on what's possibly awry with some of the motors. (Retired EE who dealt with a magnetics problem on parts sourced from China a few years back) Yes, TTI #5815 is the one they scanned. Russ Goodwin Oakwood, GA
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 15, 2019 14:39:17 GMT -8
Not only is 5815 the one they scanned, I’m pretty sure that’s the exact photo they used in their ads.
And is it a radius error, or just the class lights being in the wrong place? The more I look at it, the more it looks like the latter.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 14:46:24 GMT -8
Class lights are definitely a bit askew...in the undec model photo...to my eyes.
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Post by delta767332er on Nov 15, 2019 15:00:45 GMT -8
Suddenly everyone is an expert in visually detecting the angels and variations of scale models compared to the prototype. It reminds me of all the BS fish stories I’ve heard in my life. Yes, because discussing the potential merits and flaws of a forthcoming high-end, greatly-anticipated model, with highish-resolution shots of production models available is pointless and out of place. What would you like us to discuss here on this forum/thread? The minimum appropriate radius for your track around the Christmas Tree? Maybe how Tyco got their Brachs Candy boxcar yellow wrong? Should I find it odd that I have no desire to find a discussion on the internet that I’m not interested in or knowledgable on, and butt in and criticize the discussion or its participants? Because I don’t. That seems weird to me. And narcissistic. We appreciate your contribution.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2019 15:23:57 GMT -8
BLI, please, make undecs and without the Paragon decoder, you will sell many, please! The above statement is incorrect as previously discussed by BLI, elsewhere. Their market research has told them that most (actual buying) customers wanted their models WITH the dual mode sound decoders. This is based upon their actual preorder numbers. That is why they make them that way, and again, has been clearly stated by BLI. Other manufacturers report that the percentage of plain dc, non-sound engines is dropping with every production run. We are already at or above 60% full featured models and counting. It will not be long before other manufacturers do exactly as BLI already chose to do. Personally, I prefer non-sound and non-dcc, but I'm a dinosaur. Now back to topic. Jack
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 15, 2019 17:18:56 GMT -8
Not only is 5815 the one they scanned, I’m pretty sure that’s the exact photo they used in their ads. And is it a radius error, or just the class lights being in the wrong place? The more I look at it, the more it looks like the latter. I noticed the TTI unit did not have class lights, and it looks like the class lights on the SBD C30-7 and B36-7 pictured seem to be in slightly different locations from each other. Now, if Rapido says "since the scanned unit didn't have class lights, we checked the location based on unit "X" on "Y" railroad, and those measurements match the location on the model, are they wrong for measuring a different engine?
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Post by alcoc430 on Nov 15, 2019 17:28:01 GMT -8
I’ll ask again. At what price point are we gonna stop forgiving these types of errors? 400 dollars per unit? 500 dollars per unit? Is that what it will take to get some to stop brushing us off with, “ Ah relax guys, it’s just a toy train after all” ....? If you’re advertising yourself as hyper accurate, then you need to be hyper accurate. End of story. You are right in that regard. Jason always makes reference to all the underbody detailing they put on and much of which is not clearly visible when the train in on the tracks so to forgo a detail that is clearly visible well he opens himself up to potentially get called out on it.
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Post by westerntrains on Nov 15, 2019 18:41:27 GMT -8
I’ll ask again. At what price point are we gonna stop forgiving these types of errors? 400 dollars per unit? 500 dollars per unit? Is that what it will take to get some to stop brushing us off with, “ Ah relax guys, it’s just a toy train after all” ....? If you’re advertising yourself as hyper accurate, then you need to be hyper accurate. End of story. You are right in that regard. Jason always makes reference to all the underbody detailing they put on and much of which is not clearly visible when the train in on the tracks so to forgo a detail that is clearly visible well he opens himself up to potentially get called out on it. I remember a time at my LHS when life like proto power came out with their E-8. I pointed out the nose and roof cruve was wrong. I took a lot of abuse from modelers willing to for settle poorly done models. Same thing happening here. Fanboys don't want to hear the message and shoot the messenger. Fanboys worship false gods at alter of Rapido, and ST. Anyone who points out errors are heritics and are to be burned at the stakes. Novelties like rotating RB caps, stair and truck lights, has replaced correct collors, correct bodies and detailing. Keep quite, least your upset the fan boys.
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