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Post by Artur on Nov 15, 2019 19:48:22 GMT -8
Your criticism is based on false claims, nagativity and threats of canceling orders. If you are going to complain make it constructive and based on actual measurements and not your cross eyed views. This trand is starting to reek of immaturity, it leaves a bad tase in your mouth and no manufacture would ever read any of the posts let alone get involved in this nonsense.
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 15, 2019 20:12:03 GMT -8
Your criticism is based on false claims, nagativity and threats of canceling orders. If you are going to complain make it constructive and based on actual measurements and not your cross eyed views. This trand is starting to reek of immaturity, it leaves a bad tase in your mouth and no manufacture would ever read any of the posts let alone get involved in this nonsense.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Nov 15, 2019 22:48:50 GMT -8
Your criticism is based on false claims, nagativity and threats of canceling orders. If you are going to complain make it constructive and based on actual measurements and not your cross eyed views. This trand is starting to reek of immaturity, it leaves a bad tase in your mouth and no manufacture would ever read any of the posts let alone get involved in this nonsense. How is it a false claim if I am looking at a picture of the real thing, and a picture of the model, side by side, and they don't look alike? I trust my eyes way more than I trust your criticsm about my eyes... Donnell
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 0:29:26 GMT -8
My eyes haven't changed much since I was a kid. The Proto E units were horrible when they first came out. I compared a Broadway E7 when it first came out to a Highliner F front and the difference was nill. So the windows were not quite right on the Broadway, set back in the opening, if I recall, but the rest of the cab/nose still looked damn good. I have an eye for things that don't look right. If I don't like it, I don't buy it. It's as simple as that. And just to be clear, piss on fanboys. They mean nothing to me. If a manufacturer is going out on a limb to brag, they get what they deserve in the end.
Greg.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 0:39:29 GMT -8
Oh, and by the way Artur, since when did you become an expert on models and the prototype? The rest of us would like to know.
Greg
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Post by carrman on Nov 16, 2019 10:24:13 GMT -8
You are right in that regard. Jason always makes reference to all the underbody detailing they put on and much of which is not clearly visible when the train in on the tracks so to forgo a detail that is clearly visible well he opens himself up to potentially get called out on it. I remember a time at my LHS when life like proto power came out with their E-8. I pointed out the nose and roof cruve was wrong. I took a lot of abuse from modelers willing to for settle poorly done models. Same thing happening here. Fanboys don't want to hear the message and shoot the messenger. Fanboys worship false gods at alter of Rapido, and ST. Anyone who points out errors are heritics and are to be burned at the stakes. Novelties like rotating RB caps, stair and truck lights, has replaced correct collors, correct bodies and detailing. Keep quite, least your upset the fan boys. I kicked off the Great Atlas Forum Fan War when I posted there that the first run of Proto GP38-2's had something like 42" fans instead of the 48" they are supposed to have. What a bloodletting that was. People all upset, asking how I knew it was wrong, etc. Well, Jim Six had one and he'd emailed his RPM mailing list as to how messed up it was. The vitriol was such my GF at the time was asking if unhappy people would be showing up at the house...... Dave
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 16, 2019 10:57:27 GMT -8
I remember a time at my LHS when life like proto power came out with their E-8. I pointed out the nose and roof cruve was wrong. I took a lot of abuse from modelers willing to for settle poorly done models. Same thing happening here. Fanboys don't want to hear the message and shoot the messenger. Fanboys worship false gods at alter of Rapido, and ST. Anyone who points out errors are heritics and are to be burned at the stakes. Novelties like rotating RB caps, stair and truck lights, has replaced correct collors, correct bodies and detailing. Keep quite, least your upset the fan boys. I kicked off the Great Atlas Forum Fan War when I posted there that the first run of Proto GP38-2's had something like 42" fans instead of the 48" they are supposed to have. What a bloodletting that was. People all upset, asking how I knew it was wrong, etc. Well, Jim Six had one and he'd emailed his RPM mailing list as to how messed up it was. The vitriol was such my GF at the time was asking if unhappy people would be showing up at the house...... Dave And yet if one doesn't wear his full name and location on his internet sleeve when posting in such crossfire, he is considered by some to be a coward...
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 16, 2019 10:59:37 GMT -8
Your criticism is based on false claims, nagativity and threats of canceling orders. If you are going to complain make it constructive and based on actual measurements and not your cross eyed views. This trand is starting to reek of immaturity, it leaves a bad tase in your mouth and no manufacture would ever read any of the posts let alone get involved in this nonsense. So does this mean we'll be seeing B36-7's in resin from Pacific Dawg in a few weeks?
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Post by ambluco on Nov 16, 2019 11:05:50 GMT -8
Jim Six was the "owner" of the RPM group and had a rule that if you had complaints/criticisms, you needed to follow it up with how to fix it. He a was pretty good with that rule. This forum just tends to be "Post issue - cancel order". I remember a time at my LHS when life like proto power came out with their E-8. I pointed out the nose and roof cruve was wrong. I took a lot of abuse from modelers willing to for settle poorly done models. Same thing happening here. Fanboys don't want to hear the message and shoot the messenger. Fanboys worship false gods at alter of Rapido, and ST. Anyone who points out errors are heritics and are to be burned at the stakes. Novelties like rotating RB caps, stair and truck lights, has replaced correct collors, correct bodies and detailing. Keep quite, least your upset the fan boys. I kicked off the Great Atlas Forum Fan War when I posted there that the first run of Proto GP38-2's had something like 42" fans instead of the 48" they are supposed to have. What a bloodletting that was. People all upset, asking how I knew it was wrong, etc. Well, Jim Six had one and he'd emailed his RPM mailing list as to how messed up it was. The vitriol was such my GF at the time was asking if unhappy people would be showing up at the house...... Dave
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Post by carrman on Nov 16, 2019 11:25:14 GMT -8
Jim Six was the "owner" of the RPM group and had a rule that if you had complaints/criticisms, you needed to follow it up with how to fix it. He a was pretty good with that rule. This forum just tends to be "Post issue - cancel order". I kicked off the Great Atlas Forum Fan War when I posted there that the first run of Proto GP38-2's had something like 42" fans instead of the 48" they are supposed to have. What a bloodletting that was. People all upset, asking how I knew it was wrong, etc. Well, Jim Six had one and he'd emailed his RPM mailing list as to how messed up it was. The vitriol was such my GF at the time was asking if unhappy people would be showing up at the house...... Dave That was a time before you had to pre-order everything, and engines weren't selling for over 300 bucks. For that kind of money, I expect it to be right.
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Post by delta767332er on Nov 16, 2019 12:31:37 GMT -8
Not only is 5815 the one they scanned, I’m pretty sure that’s the exact photo they used in their ads. And is it a radius error, or just the class lights being in the wrong place? The more I look at it, the more it looks like the latter. At this point, my models are inbound so I'm not going to go cross-eyed staring at my computer screen more than I've already done recently trying to get some other tooling fixed on another model, but there's CLEARLY something way funky going on with the nose with the relationship of all the corner radii and the location of the class lights. It's [not] funny comparing what Gordon Cannon did so long ago and how he did it compared to what the manufacturers are cranking out with their processes, or rather, lack thereof. Critical analysis of preproduction models and the allowance of time in the production timeline to fix issues, somehow, some way, HAS to be moved higher up on the priority list, perhaps above silly facebook videos. It seems preproduction models' only purpose is to have something to make the announcement with or help with marketing. When we, as passionate prototype modelers, see pictures of a preproduction model of something that is important to us, we sit down and spend the time to critically compare it to the prototype. I have reason to believe the process at the bigger manufacturers is more along the lines of: is the blue a blue and not a red? Are there some warning decals on it? Do the numberboards all have the same number on them? And what's the quality of the pad printing? Probably all without a picture of the prototype up. But yeah, I'm just a keyboard-warrior surmising. I know nothing. Have y'all SEEN the assembly of the CNW SD45?!? Photographed by a professional photographer?!? At some point, the explaining away that it's a preproduction model starts to sound completely empty when production has comparable issues, or even if it doesn't. And how is the engineering so bad that there's that much variance in effort required to put the thing together properly. "We're only going to spend 'preproduction effort' putting this together." Do you think Tamiya would publicly show pictures of a model in preproduction like that? I'm probably missing the big picture. However, the big picture does include a fact: Many models by the major manufacturers are consistently flawed in easily preventable ways. And because of the logistical and financial limitations of them being manufactured in China it "forces" acceptance o f a standard that is unlike any other product family I can think of. Why? Because people don't talk about it, even though now we can so easily on the internet. I'm sometimes pretty vocal about criticisms (and praise), but I can't count the number of times that I've fallen on the sword and have been the bad guy that speaks up, just to receive countless PMs or subtle agreements to my point in a not-so-public way. Have you said anything? Did you write them? No? So there's ONE person complaining instead of the EIGHT that I talked to that agree 100% that don't take the time to speak up or help draw attention to the fact that our small minority might not be QUITE as small as everyone likes to think. Now compound this outside my little world.
If you see something, say something. It's not a personal attack. It's consumer feedback. And that is the only thing that changes things. Not private messages.
And for people that don't like to read about critical analysis of models, don't read them, or go CSX3305 yourself.
Brian Bennett
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 15:52:06 GMT -8
This forum just tends to be "Post issue - cancel order". I completely agree. This is exactly how some past topics read to me. Mistakes are mistakes, and should be respectfully discussed, but things can turn ugly too fast.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 0:23:59 GMT -8
Maybe things are far complicated than we can suppose first. Twenty or twenty-five years ago a lot of us were builders/detailers/scratchbuilders... Now things are different : we are in a RTR world, with a lot of "top-notch-quality" models (or supposed so). Price range has raised, so we WANT perfect toys (yes, we are talking about toys, guys). We MUST pre-order, very often just after looking some nice-looking drawings, and when the toy arrives to us, the result is sometimes not as good as we were expecting. Research and manufacturing time must be as short as possible, QC is often at the minimum level (when it exists), so it's a perfect way to have errors. Too fast work is NEVER good work. And as modelers have more and more knowledge and photographic material, errors are not long to be seen... and discussed... It doesn't justify IMHO to see a manufacturer-bashing like in recent posts. Even if a model isn't right, it's ONE model. Just ONE. So OK, we can perfectly (and respectuously) say or write that THIS model is wrong, but NOT more. To suggest/explain how to correct or improve the model is a nice idea, interesting for modelers AND maunfacturers (yes, it's a business with toys, remember). Regards, Pierre BARBE
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Post by ambluco on Nov 17, 2019 5:23:21 GMT -8
For that kind of money, I expect it to be right. Apparently, you've never purchased an automobile.
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 17, 2019 6:04:23 GMT -8
QUALITY
SPEED
PRICE
Choose any two.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 6:43:58 GMT -8
I don't think anyone in this thread is "manufacturer bashing"...they are discussing the highs and lows of a particular diesel model in HO scale. Anyone who sees it as bashing doesn't get it...or doesn't understand the art of conversation and debate.
Bashing would be "Company XYZ sucks"...or Everything that Company "ABC" is junk...or Tyco junkers...etc.,
There are accomplished modelers (some of whom participated in helping with this engine in development) discussing what they know to be facts about the initial release and the process of how the issues came to be.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 6:55:06 GMT -8
For that kind of money, I expect it to be right. Apparently, you've never purchased an automobile. Way back when all we had was Cannon and Co. and Athearn Blue box GP's (that were pretty close)...we all knew what to expect. Cannon parts were the first line in making the model look great. Gordon is still missed to this day, BTW. His products revolutionized the hobby...and some of his earlier ventures led to the modular designs that we see today creating the "hyper-detailed" models of today. His Precision Investment Castings EMD stanchions are still what I use today for EMD handrails...since nothing better has come along. I replace the short hoods on my EMD's with his short hood kits...and still replace the battery box and equipment doors with his parts as well. Still, it's amazing that after all this time has gone by...manufacturers are still playing the same game. Buy this and that..."road number specific" details (when they're not)..."why do you want undecorated models when we are building your models for you?"...etc., Or when a manufacturer foobies up a $300 engine and tells detractors to take it or leave it...well; The only thing missing is the Fast Freddie Hawaiian shirt and the hair GEL
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 7:12:29 GMT -8
I don't think anyone in this thread is "manufacturer bashing"...they are discussing the highs and lows of a particular diesel model in HO scale. Anyone who sees it as bashing doesn't get it...or doesn't understand the art of conversation and debate. Bashing would be "Company XYZ sucks"...or Everything that Company "ABC" is junk...or Tyco junkers...etc., There are accomplished modelers (some of whom participated in helping with this engine in development) discussing what they know to be facts about the initial release and the process of how the issues came to be. Maybe do you think I need some lessons about art of conversation and debate ? Wow.
Cool. REALLY nice to read.
Sorry, I prefer to leave and go modeling.
Pierre BARBE
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 7:24:50 GMT -8
I don't think anyone in this thread is "manufacturer bashing"...they are discussing the highs and lows of a particular diesel model in HO scale. Anyone who sees it as bashing doesn't get it...or doesn't understand the art of conversation and debate. Bashing would be "Company XYZ sucks"...or Everything that Company "ABC" is junk...or Tyco junkers...etc., There are accomplished modelers (some of whom participated in helping with this engine in development) discussing what they know to be facts about the initial release and the process of how the issues came to be. Maybe do you think I need some lessons about art of conversation and debate ? Wow.
Cool. REALLY nice to read.
Sorry, I prefer to leave and go modeling.
Pierre BARBE
Maybe...and a little brushing up on grammar...
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Post by drsvelte on Nov 17, 2019 7:58:26 GMT -8
My dealer notified me that he expects the B36-7s to arrive this week. 😊
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Post by peoriaman on Nov 17, 2019 8:03:21 GMT -8
Maybe do you think I need some lessons about art of conversation and debate ? Wow.
Cool. REALLY nice to read. Sorry, I prefer to leave and go modeling.
Pierre BARBE
Maybe...and a little brushing up on grammar... By the way, its "gel", not "jell".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 8:07:45 GMT -8
Touché!!!😂
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 17, 2019 8:30:06 GMT -8
We'll never know now that wagonmania has deleted his membership, but I think he may reside in another country and English may not be his native language. Telling him to brush up on his grammar may not have gone over too well.
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Post by carrman on Nov 17, 2019 8:30:48 GMT -8
My dealer notified me that he expects the B36-7s to arrive this week. 😊 While they have a couple of disappointments for me, I'm looking forward to my two SP motors.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2019 8:32:22 GMT -8
If Rapido does a B23-7...I’ll certainly look at it...especially if it’s a clear upgrade to the Atlas engine...which was an upgrade over the Bachmann Plus B23-7; which was an attempt at an upgrade over the Railpower Products shell...IMO.
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Post by schroed2 on Nov 17, 2019 8:49:39 GMT -8
We'll never know now that wagonmania has deleted his membership, but I think he may reside in another country and English may not be his native language. Telling him to brush up on his grammar may not have gone over too well. from what I know, Pierre Barbe is french...in terms of nationality, residence and language.
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Post by drolsen on Nov 17, 2019 13:51:08 GMT -8
I haven't ordered any B36-7s yet, and I'm pretty torn about what to do with this model. This is an important prototype for my CSX modeling efforts - I'd love to be model one of the TOFC trains from the '90s that were pulled by 4-unit sets of GP40-2s and B30/36-7s. 4-axle B-boats are a key part of a diverse CSX diesel fleet. I may end up ordering just one from this run, or maybe an undecorated unit that would allow me to address the stepwells and potential nose issues. At the rate that my modeling is going (or not going) lately though, I might never get around to modifying and painting an undecorated model.
Dave Olsen
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Post by arandall70 on Nov 17, 2019 13:53:02 GMT -8
I'll add this just to get it out there. I mentioned this with the release of the ScaleTrains Dash-9s(its an issue with several of their modern offerings) and almost had a mob at my house with torches and pitchforks! What is with the desire to recess the numberboards on modern locomotives and put them behind a piece of clear plastic? This looks more like a first or second generation numberboard with the numbers behind glass. Other than SP units with their train indicators, numberboards have not been this way for a long time(especially the B36-7 and later era). I don't expect the numbers to have depth like the prototype, but the numberboard should be virtually flush with the surrounding steel. Only the gasket should really be raised. The effect is similar to the Atlas Dash-8s, who have number boards that appear even smaller than they are because of the construction of the housing. This isn't a deal-breaker for me because I am trying to model another number than is offered, but I think it really detracts from the appearance. I wish I could understand the desire to construct them this way.
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Post by 12bridge on Nov 17, 2019 16:50:40 GMT -8
Anthony -
YES! I am amazed nobody else has mentioned this more.
I think what they are doing is printing the clear piece from the backside, thus giving it the appearance of sitting behind glass. The other annoying aspect of this is that that edge shows through the backround color, like on the Scale Trains DRGW SD40T-2s.
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Post by thunderhawk on Nov 17, 2019 18:28:05 GMT -8
On the Dash 2's it is correct, at least for some, to have it printed from the back. In later years they went to the stick on numbers like is seen today. On my ST SD's the number boards protrude from the housing which is annoying. Haven't looked for the cause yet.
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