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Post by cnsd60f on Nov 16, 2019 18:02:39 GMT -8
Hi everyone, I am hoping someone can help me out here. I have two SD40-2w builds I am getting back to finishing after about 4 years of sitting on the side lines. The long hood fans are being replaced with Cannon parts. My issue is that I have Cannon parts I bought, but I can't find my notes from when I started the build. The issue is the two units have radiator fans and/or dynamic fans that are not the same height. The link from CNR Photos demonstartes what I am talking about: www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=75010I tried to post a photo but got an error. In the image you will see that the rear most radiator fan and the two DB fans are not as tall as the the other two radiator fans. I have Cannon radiator fan parts RF-1704 which are definitely the taller fan heights. I have Cannon DB fan part DF-1853 which appears to be the same height as the RF-1704 units. The DF-1853 and RF-1704 both say 'Late 40 Series & Dash-2's. I think I had figured out the lower height Cannon part, and it was not in stock at the time. I have looked at the Cannon site and can tell no differences from photos or descriptions. Does anyone know if there is a Cannon part for this fan or another manufacturer? Thanks in advance for any help. Ryan |
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 16, 2019 18:13:50 GMT -8
I'm not sure of their availability (it doesn't look like Cannon makes them), but IIRC most of the CN SD40-2W's were ordered with those low clearance fans (some complete with a low-clearance winterization hatch). Some other roads like EL (on their SDP45's) opted for them as well, so calling the Athearn parts department and seeing if they have any EL SDP45 radiator fans might be one option. Carefully trimming the shrouds down on some Cannon fans might be another option.
I think Andy Harmon used some out-of-production fans from Details West(?) or Detail Associates on his SDP45 build years ago, but you'd have to double check the article to be sure.
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Post by cnsd60f on Nov 16, 2019 18:39:39 GMT -8
You are right. The winterization hatch is unique. I found that part on Shapeways. No luck on the radiator fans. Thanks for the lead on the SDP45 fans!
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Post by cemr5396 on Nov 16, 2019 19:06:24 GMT -8
There is enough variation from unit to unit that you could get away with just about whatever you want. Like Judge said, a lot of CN's GMDs from that time period seem to have come with the low profile fans originally, but it seems that later in life if a fan went bad they were simply replaced with a regular EMD fan. Here is some info I gathered based on some of the photos I have taken: (For clarity, 'LC' is low clearance, RH is regular height. Fans will be described from front to rear) - CCGX 5232 (Ex-CN SD40, no dynamics) Fan arrangement: (RH)(RH)(LC) - CCGX 5311 (Ex-CN SD40-2W, w/ dynamics) - (RH)(RH) (LC)(RH)(RH) - CN 5303 (SD40-2W, no dynamics) all fans regular height - CN 5266 (SD40-2W, no dynamics) all fans regular height - CN 5350 (SD40-2W, w/dynamics) photos aren't a good angle, but it appears the dynamic fans are LCs, Radiator fan #1 has a Low Clearance winter hatch, and fans #2 and 3 are regular height. FWIW, the photos I referenced were taken between 2014 and now, and I have also observed the differing fan heights on GP38-2s and -2Ws, as well as on SD40u rebuilds and GTW 5900-series SD40-3s. As far as parts go, I'll throw in another vote for Athearn. They have fan sets with differing height fans so you can mix and match them. www.athearn.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=ATH11693 |
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Post by cnsd60f on Nov 16, 2019 20:33:03 GMT -8
cemr5396,
Thanks for the link to Athearn's part! I see they are due in January, but they are definitely different heights.
FWIW, I am modeling CN 5241 (Lead unit for model/class) and CN 5337 during the 2000's.
CN 5241 - both DB's and rear most rad fan are LC. Two remaining rads are as you have noted regular Height.
CN 5337 - This one's a little more interesting. Both DB's are RH the front Rad has a CN winterization hatch (as noted by Judge above) the mid rad fan is LC and the rear is HC.
This also has me going back to checking as I have the parts for two CN SD40u builds but I don't think I checked the fans. It's good to be getting back into this.
I had picked up two IM SD40-2w's and parked these builds. After finally really looking at the IM's (finally got them out of boxes), I am going back to my original builds. Kato drives, Athearn or Kato long hoods, Athearn Safety Cabs, etc. I have been grafting Atlas/Athearn GP40-2w steps to get the right step wells, pilots and anti-climbers.
I will try to post some pics as this goes. The first one is getting close, CN 5266 - it had RH rad fans and no dynamic.
Thank you again for the links!
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 16, 2019 21:11:33 GMT -8
There's even a few CN SD's out there that have GP9 48" fans on the DB hatch (one of the 6000-series SD40u's comes to mind). EDIT: it was CN 6027: www.michaeltaylor.ca/CNR/cn6027.html |
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Post by Artur on Nov 17, 2019 4:56:11 GMT -8
I had the same problem, what I did was leave out the upper ring from one of the 1704 fans.
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Post by Artur on Nov 17, 2019 5:00:54 GMT -8
There's even a few CN SD's out there that have GP9 48" fans on the DB hatch (one of the 6000-series SD40u's comes to mind). EDIT: it was CN 6027: www.michaeltaylor.ca/CNR/cn6027.htmlThat’s pretty interesting, I think I found my next project  |
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Post by cnsd60f on Nov 17, 2019 8:50:10 GMT -8
Artur
We will have to compare notes. Will take photos to share. I have replaced front and back steps/pilots. Started 6001 & 6021, but there is more to do there than the -2w's. Judge Doom has me now going back to look at 6021 as it has 2 LC fans, and I am wondering if they are the old GP style.
Interesting thought on dropping the top ring on the 1704 fans. Will give that a try as well.
Thanks everyone!
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sp3205
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Post by sp3205 on Nov 17, 2019 12:45:57 GMT -8
Artur We will have to compare notes. Will take photos to share. I have replaced front and back steps/pilots. Started 6001 & 6021, but there is more to do there than the -2w's. Judge Doom has me now going back to look at 6021 as it has 2 LC fans, and I am wondering if they are the old GP style. Interesting thought on dropping the top ring on the 1704 fans. Will give that a try as well. Thanks everyone! Having gone down this rabbit hole before, the simplest part of the discussion is to say do not start with the Cannon 1704 radiator fan base, but rather a 1851, 2, or 3. The reason? EMD radiator fans had a concave fillet where the base ring was welded to the base plate. Dynamic brake fans, and all of the “low profile” fans did not. The easiest way to model these fans would be to take them off a Genesis EL SDP45 or SD45-2 shell, but that might be a challenge because they’re cast on, and getting hold of just a shell from Athearn might be a challenge in and of itself. Another problem is that Athearn cast the radiator fast with 10 blades (correct for the dynamic brake fan) instead of the 8 or 9 blades that the radiator fans should have, depending on when they were built. The best photos of these style fans are on George Elwood’s Fallen Flags site:
As you can see, the base ring is welded to the base using a series of weld beads, the dynamic brake fans appear to have a continuous weld, which I think is a mor4 typical construction. Either way, it’s a pretty tiny detail in HO. The dynamic brake and radiator fans appear to have a different construction, and *may* just use the standard base ring, it’s hard to tell without actually drawings or measurements. The top ring is clearly very short. The radiator fans have an opposite construction, the base is much shorter, the top ring is taller. Athearn apparently did the opposite, the radiator fans appear to mimic the construction of the dynamic brake fans, I can’t make out any ring on the dynamic brake fans, though the paint on the shell I have is a bit thick, and may obscure that.
So to accurately model the radiator fans, you’ll definitely need to sand/file the base ring shorter. On both, you also have to lower the motor mount. On the prototype, the mounting brackets are angled downwards, you could try gently pushing the Cannon fan housing such that the brackets bend. It may be easier once on a model. But otherwise, the top of the motor housing (the part on top of the blades, will not sit below the top of the upper ring and grill. The Cannon (and EMD) upper grill rings are the same height on both the dynamic brake and radiator fans, it’s actually the same Cannon mold. The rings can be sanded down if you’re careful (I know one modeler who actually trimmed them using his mill, I don’t think I could do that!), you’ll lose the mounting clasps unless you cut them off first. I’ve simulated them using short strips of .010 styrene when using the Cannon flared rings, which are turned aluminum. Yes, it’s not the correct hexagonal shape (that Gordon correctly rendered) with the smaller hex nut on top, but, well, it’s a small part! I don’t recommend sanding or filing the top off, because it has a very small rabbet into which the etched grills fit. I can’t imagine trying to do that after the fact.
Dynamic brake and radiator got switched around all the time, the # 1 and 2 radiator fans on 5244 have clearly been replaced. CN SD40s and 40-2s came with low-profile fans until the 1980-built 40-2s, at which time whatever clearance issues had existed were apparently fixed. By the time the SD40 upgrade program, the mix of fans appeared completely random. You can definitely use the Cannon 48-in cap-top fan if you want to model 6027. My model of SP 3205 actually uses a Highliner fan Dave turned down for me before the Cannon molds were finished, but it’s the same principle:
I can’t remember when the Cannon fans came out, it’s been what, 13 years since his passing? But no other fans come close. Both Athearn Genesis and Scale Trains fans tend to exaggerate whatever apparent difference in the diameter of the top and bottom rings may exist, or it may be that they aren’t always perfectly aligned. But there’s a noticeable step in their fans, so much that I can see it from a distance, and I always replace them with Cannon parts. And of course, the clamping brackets are “shadowed” all the way down to the base, there’s no other way to do it on a one-piece mold. But I see it, and can’t un-see it. I do know that making separate parts can get cost-prohibitive, assembly costs can easily more than eat up the costs of tooling an entirely different mold. Gordon would curse a blue streak about shooting the fan molds, they were (and still are) damn persnickety to shoot. They give Dave fits to this day. They are still, far and away, the best.
Elizabeth
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Post by Artur on Nov 17, 2019 15:36:44 GMT -8
Artur We will have to compare notes. Will take photos to share. I have replaced front and back steps/pilots. Started 6001 & 6021, but there is more to do there than the -2w's. Judge Doom has me now going back to look at 6021 as it has 2 LC fans, and I am wondering if they are the old GP style. Interesting thought on dropping the top ring on the 1704 fans. Will give that a try as well. Thanks everyone! Having gone down this rabbit hole before, the simplest part of the discussion is to say do not start with the Cannon 1704 radiator fan base, but rather a 1851, 2, or 3. The reason? EMD radiator fans had a concave fillet where the base ring was welded to the base plate. Dynamic brake fans, and all of the “low profile” fans did not. The easiest way to model these fans would be to take them off a Genesis EL SDP45 or SD45-2 shell, but that might be a challenge because they’re cast on, and getting hold of just a shell from Athearn might be a challenge in and of itself. Another problem is that Athearn cast the radiator fast with 10 blades (correct for the dynamic brake fan) instead of the 8 or 9 blades that the radiator fans should have, depending on when they were built. The best photos of these style fans are on George Elwood’s Fallen Flags site:
As you can see, the base ring is welded to the base using a series of weld beads, the dynamic brake fans appear to have a continuous weld, which I think is a mor4 typical construction. Either way, it’s a pretty tiny detail in HO. The dynamic brake and radiator fans appear to have a different construction, and *may* just use the standard base ring, it’s hard to tell without actually drawings or measurements. The top ring is clearly very short. The radiator fans have an opposite construction, the base is much shorter, the top ring is taller. Athearn apparently did the opposite, the radiator fans appear to mimic the construction of the dynamic brake fans, I can’t make out any ring on the dynamic brake fans, though the paint on the shell I have is a bit thick, and may obscure that.
So to accurately model the radiator fans, you’ll definitely need to sand/file the base ring shorter. On both, you also have to lower the motor mount. On the prototype, the mounting brackets are angled downwards, you could try gently pushing the Cannon fan housing such that the brackets bend. It may be easier once on a model. But otherwise, the top of the motor housing (the part on top of the blades, will not sit below the top of the upper ring and grill. The Cannon (and EMD) upper grill rings are the same height on both the dynamic brake and radiator fans, it’s actually the same Cannon mold. The rings can be sanded down if you’re careful (I know one modeler who actually trimmed them using his mill, I don’t think I could do that!), you’ll lose the mounting clasps unless you cut them off first. I’ve simulated them using short strips of .010 styrene when using the Cannon flared rings, which are turned aluminum. Yes, it’s not the correct hexagonal shape (that Gordon correctly rendered) with the smaller hex nut on top, but, well, it’s a small part! I don’t recommend sanding or filing the top off, because it has a very small rabbet into which the etched grills fit. I can’t imagine trying to do that after the fact.
Dynamic brake and radiator got switched around all the time, the # 1 and 2 radiator fans on 5244 have clearly been replaced. CN SD40s and 40-2s came with low-profile fans until the 1980-built 40-2s, at which time whatever clearance issues had existed were apparently fixed. By the time the SD40 upgrade program, the mix of fans appeared completely random. You can definitely use the Cannon 48-in cap-top fan if you want to model 6027. My model of SP 3205 actually uses a Highliner fan Dave turned down for me before the Cannon molds were finished, but it’s the same principle:
I can’t remember when the Cannon fans came out, it’s been what, 13 years since his passing? But no other fans come close. Both Athearn Genesis and Scale Trains fans tend to exaggerate whatever apparent difference in the diameter of the top and bottom rings may exist, or it may be that they aren’t always perfectly aligned. But there’s a noticeable step in their fans, so much that I can see it from a distance, and I always replace them with Cannon parts. And of course, the clamping brackets are “shadowed” all the way down to the base, there’s no other way to do it on a one-piece mold. But I see it, and can’t un-see it. I do know that making separate parts can get cost-prohibitive, assembly costs can easily more than eat up the costs of tooling an entirely different mold. Gordon would curse a blue streak about shooting the fan molds, they were (and still are) damn persnickety to shoot. They give Dave fits to this day. They are still, far and away, the best.
Elizabeth
Good to know, I never looked at those fans this closely. |
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Post by Artur on Nov 17, 2019 15:49:25 GMT -8
Artur We will have to compare notes. Will take photos to share. I have replaced front and back steps/pilots. Started 6001 & 6021, but there is more to do there than the -2w's. Judge Doom has me now going back to look at 6021 as it has 2 LC fans, and I am wondering if they are the old GP style. Interesting thought on dropping the top ring on the 1704 fans. Will give that a try as well. Thanks everyone! I pre-ordered one of the ScaleTrains undecorated SD45’s, will use the drive, walkways and probably the fans for the SD40 build. Regarding the LC fans I think they are from the GP’s. Im all out of Cannon so highliners fan will do. I also bought the cab a while back from Rebel Locomotives, what cab are you using? www.shapeways.com/product/N2EEKYLA2/cb0019-cn-sd40u-cab-with-class-lights-1-87-1?optionId=58256471&li=marketplace |
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 17, 2019 19:51:59 GMT -8
There's even a few CN SD's out there that have GP9 48" fans on the DB hatch (one of the 6000-series SD40u's comes to mind). EDIT: it was CN 6027: www.michaeltaylor.ca/CNR/cn6027.htmlThat’s pretty interesting, I think I found my next project Here's another: CN SD40-2W 5301 with dual GP9 48" fans on its DB hatch: www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2188537 Regarding the LC fans I think they are from the GP’s. The low clearance fans seen on the SD40-2W's were ordered stock on those units. The GP38's and GP40's (the -2, -2L, -2W, yadda yadda) CN ordered came with the standard height fans (but low clearance fans were often swapped on or off as replacements sometimes). The old-style 48" fans on the DB section of 6027 and 5301 definitely came off CN GP9RM's though. There's photos out there of CN GP9RM's with standard height fans found on GP38/40's too. |
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Post by cnsd60f on Nov 17, 2019 22:02:06 GMT -8
Artur We will have to compare notes. Will take photos to share. I have replaced front and back steps/pilots. Started 6001 & 6021, but there is more to do there than the -2w's. Judge Doom has me now going back to look at 6021 as it has 2 LC fans, and I am wondering if they are the old GP style. Interesting thought on dropping the top ring on the 1704 fans. Will give that a try as well. Thanks everyone! I pre-ordered one of the ScaleTrains undecorated SD45’s, will use the drive, walkways and probably the fans for the SD40 build. Regarding the LC fans I think they are from the GP’s. Im all out of Cannon so highliners fan will do. I also bought the cab a while back from Rebel Locomotives, what cab are you using? www.shapeways.com/product/N2EEKYLA2/cb0019-cn-sd40u-cab-with-class-lights-1-87-1?optionId=58256471&li=marketplace
I was building up cabs from Cannon kits, but I could never get the cab front angle to where I liked it. I ended up ordering the same cabs from Rebel Locomotive. One with class lights and one without. I got mine printed in RC31 Orange. Huge difference in capturing detail from the other filaments used. I did have to tape the bottom and back edges to prevent from spreading over time while being stored. They fit and align well on the Kato Sill I am using.
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Post by cnsd60f on Nov 17, 2019 22:16:21 GMT -8
Artur We will have to compare notes. Will take photos to share. I have replaced front and back steps/pilots. Started 6001 & 6021, but there is more to do there than the -2w's. Judge Doom has me now going back to look at 6021 as it has 2 LC fans, and I am wondering if they are the old GP style. Interesting thought on dropping the top ring on the 1704 fans. Will give that a try as well. Thanks everyone! Having gone down this rabbit hole before, the simplest part of the discussion is to say do not start with the Cannon 1704 radiator fan base, but rather a 1851, 2, or 3. The reason? EMD radiator fans had a concave fillet where the base ring was welded to the base plate. Dynamic brake fans, and all of the “low profile” fans did not. The easiest way to model these fans would be to take them off a Genesis EL SDP45 or SD45-2 shell, but that might be a challenge because they’re cast on, and getting hold of just a shell from Athearn might be a challenge in and of itself. Another problem is that Athearn cast the radiator fast with 10 blades (correct for the dynamic brake fan) instead of the 8 or 9 blades that the radiator fans should have, depending on when they were built. The best photos of these style fans are on George Elwood’s Fallen Flags site:
As you can see, the base ring is welded to the base using a series of weld beads, the dynamic brake fans appear to have a continuous weld, which I think is a mor4 typical construction. Either way, it’s a pretty tiny detail in HO. The dynamic brake and radiator fans appear to have a different construction, and *may* just use the standard base ring, it’s hard to tell without actually drawings or measurements. The top ring is clearly very short. The radiator fans have an opposite construction, the base is much shorter, the top ring is taller. Athearn apparently did the opposite, the radiator fans appear to mimic the construction of the dynamic brake fans, I can’t make out any ring on the dynamic brake fans, though the paint on the shell I have is a bit thick, and may obscure that.
So to accurately model the radiator fans, you’ll definitely need to sand/file the base ring shorter. On both, you also have to lower the motor mount. On the prototype, the mounting brackets are angled downwards, you could try gently pushing the Cannon fan housing such that the brackets bend. It may be easier once on a model. But otherwise, the top of the motor housing (the part on top of the blades, will not sit below the top of the upper ring and grill. The Cannon (and EMD) upper grill rings are the same height on both the dynamic brake and radiator fans, it’s actually the same Cannon mold. The rings can be sanded down if you’re careful (I know one modeler who actually trimmed them using his mill, I don’t think I could do that!), you’ll lose the mounting clasps unless you cut them off first. I’ve simulated them using short strips of .010 styrene when using the Cannon flared rings, which are turned aluminum. Yes, it’s not the correct hexagonal shape (that Gordon correctly rendered) with the smaller hex nut on top, but, well, it’s a small part! I don’t recommend sanding or filing the top off, because it has a very small rabbet into which the etched grills fit. I can’t imagine trying to do that after the fact.
Dynamic brake and radiator got switched around all the time, the # 1 and 2 radiator fans on 5244 have clearly been replaced. CN SD40s and 40-2s came with low-profile fans until the 1980-built 40-2s, at which time whatever clearance issues had existed were apparently fixed. By the time the SD40 upgrade program, the mix of fans appeared completely random. You can definitely use the Cannon 48-in cap-top fan if you want to model 6027. My model of SP 3205 actually uses a Highliner fan Dave turned down for me before the Cannon molds were finished, but it’s the same principle:
I can’t remember when the Cannon fans came out, it’s been what, 13 years since his passing? But no other fans come close. Both Athearn Genesis and Scale Trains fans tend to exaggerate whatever apparent difference in the diameter of the top and bottom rings may exist, or it may be that they aren’t always perfectly aligned. But there’s a noticeable step in their fans, so much that I can see it from a distance, and I always replace them with Cannon parts. And of course, the clamping brackets are “shadowed” all the way down to the base, there’s no other way to do it on a one-piece mold. But I see it, and can’t un-see it. I do know that making separate parts can get cost-prohibitive, assembly costs can easily more than eat up the costs of tooling an entirely different mold. Gordon would curse a blue streak about shooting the fan molds, they were (and still are) damn persnickety to shoot. They give Dave fits to this day. They are still, far and away, the best.
Elizabeth
Great info! I took a look when I got home tonight, based on your input. I didn't realize until now that the DB bases are not as tall (at least for 1853) as those for the RF 1704 parts. Still seems way to tall when adding the ring and will have the seam you are talking about.
I found Plano Models makes a fan bracket that appears to be for adding details to a P2K units: www.planomodelproducts.com/inwork-jan10/11851a.jpg
I am thinking I can use these and mount them with some mods would give me the clearance for the fan itself. If I file/trim off the Cannon Ring height flush to the lip of the base, and then mount the Cannon ring to that.
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