Do you want code 88 wheels on your rolling stock from the fa

[fr8kar]

From the ScaleTrains 5820 thread:

There only seems to be a few here that are adamant about wanting .088 wheelsets on their freight cars. Why not have a voting poll on this?

[wp8thsub]

My position on this is that it's largely related to commercial frogs. Typical commercial turnouts in HO allow at least some bouncing across the flangeways with code 88 wheels that tends to be absent with code 110. Most of us with large layouts have a lot of commercial turnouts that would be difficult and/or costly to retrofit so that code 88 wheelsets operate with no wobble to destroy the realism. For my own purposes, watching cars with semi-scale wheelsets exhibiting toy-like motion through turnouts, even if it's slight, negates any visual advantage from the narrower wheel treads.

I'll also note that most viewing of cars on a layout tends to occur from the side, where wheel width is far less apparent than from the end. Were I a contest modeler I might think differently.

I have no derailment issues with code 88 wheelsets, so I don't usually replace them, but there you have it - I prefer code 110, but won't refuse to purchase a car or a set of trucks if equipped otherwise. If manufacturers cooperated with better turnouts, I'd wager that acceptance of code 88 would gradually increase as older layouts aged out, and more serious modelers started replacing turnouts (as I would).

[edwardsutorik]

I agree that the problem with Code 88 wheels is the drop at the frog. And the problem could be cured if the flangeway was made less deep.


Ed

[cnwfan]

Aug 8, 2022 19:27:28 GMT -8 wp8thsub said:

My position on this is that it's largely related to commercial frogs. Typical commercial turnouts in HO allow at least some bouncing across the flangeways with code 88 wheels that tends to be absent with code 110. Most of us with large layouts have a lot of commercial turnouts that would be difficult and/or costly to retrofit so that code 88 wheelsets operate with no wobble to destroy the realism. For my own purposes, watching cars with semi-scale wheelsets exhibiting toy-like motion through turnouts, even if it's slight, negates any visual advantage from the narrower wheel treads.

I'll also note that most viewing of cars on a layout tends to occur from the side, where wheel width is far less apparent than from the end. Were I a contest modeler I might think differently.

I have no derailment issues with code 88 wheelsets, so I don't usually replace them, but there you have it - I prefer code 110, but won't refuse to purchase a car or a set of trucks if equipped otherwise. If manufacturers cooperated with better turnouts, I'd wager that acceptance of code 88 would gradually increase as older layouts aged out, and more serious modelers started replacing turnouts (as I would).

The issue is that commercial trackwork wasn't designed for Code88 wheels. There is a combination of dimensions and tolerances that will allow the Code88 wheels to drop at the frog even though everything can be within tho applicable tolerances. A large enough sample size of both wheels and trackwork will find that dimension/tolerance combination that can cause trouble.

.110 wheels are also more forgiving of an out of tolerance condition on the trackwork.

If a car comes with .088, I won't change unless that car gives me trouble. If a car comes with .110's, I don't see the need to swap it for .088's.

[fcixdarrell]

With "Make it optional" a choice in the poll, how do folks imagine how that could be pulled off?

Two sets of wheels in each box?

One SKU with .088" treads and one with .110" treads?

Thanks

[fr8kar]

Aug 8, 2022 21:06:53 GMT -8 fcixdarrell said:

With "Make it optional" a choice in the poll, how do folks imagine how that could be pulled off?

Two sets of wheels in each box?

One SKU with .088" treads and one with .110" treads?

Thanks

I was thinking of a SKU with code 88 wheels and another SKU with code 110 wheels.

[Christian]

Aug 8, 2022 21:49:16 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

I was thinking of a SKU with code 88 wheels and another SKU with code 110 wheels.

I talked to David Lehlbach about this a couple of years ago. For a small business, it means doubling everything including predictions for sales and order quantity to the manufacturer.

This reminds me of the ruckus on the Old Atlas Forum when Atlas had the audacity to make buyers pay for a decoder socket on locomotives.

[schroed2]

Aug 8, 2022 21:06:53 GMT -8 fcixdarrell said:

With "Make it optional" a choice in the poll, how do folks imagine how that could be pulled off?

Two sets of wheels in each box?

One SKU with .088" treads and one with .110" treads?

Thanks

either option will do to bring out the protests, but I am content to stay with buying Code88-Wheelsets separately and selling of the Code110 wheelsets that get removed (same for couplers...)

[riogrande]

Aug 8, 2022 21:06:53 GMT -8 fcixdarrell said:

With "Make it optional" a choice in the poll, how do folks imagine how that could be pulled off?

Two sets of wheels in each box?

One SKU with .088" treads and one with .110" treads?

Thanks

I highly doubt any model manufacture would offer different skus for both wheel types.

[Colin 't Hart]

The manufacturers are on a hiding to nothing to ship their cars with code 88 wheels:
Those modellers that care are more than capable and willing to exchange them themselves (proviso: they must be available which is the problem in the scale of ScaleTrains), while those that don't want them will scream blue murder when their cars derail on their track (which they likewise don't care about fixing).

Two wheelsets in each box will just increase the price (which is already a contentious issue), while multiple SKUs will turn a borderline profitable business into an unprofitable one.

[riogrande]

As of this moment nearly half have voted for code 88 wheels, which is understandable because the members here are focused on appearance quite a bit. But I wonder if it is an anomaly being that some model companies like Athearn Genesis produced Genesis models for a while with 88 wheel sets and due to customer feedback, switched back to standard 110 wheels.

[schroed2]

Aug 9, 2022 3:39:51 GMT -8 riogrande said:

As of this moment nearly half have voted for code 88 wheels, which is understandable because the members here are focused on appearance quite a bit. But I wonder if it is an anomaly being that some model companies like Athearn Genesis produced Genesis models for a while with 88 wheel sets and due to customer feedback, switched back to standard 110 wheels.

well, if you consider those who also care about good track an anomaly, you might be up to something...

[markfj]

Is adding a new SKU that big of a deal for any manufacturer? In my days working for an electronics company, we added new part numbers to our inventory/ERP frequently. Every time we got a new contract it typically required adding a unique bill of materials. The same must be true for train manufacturers every time they produce a new car or locomotive. One of the efficiencies of running an ERP system is that allows for ordering and stocking of similar parts used across different jobs. I would be surprised if most model train manufacturers large or small are not using some kind of inventory/ERP system, the software isn't that expensive and it's practically a necessity.

I've been slowly switching my rolling stock to code 88 wheels for literally years now and it is an expensive process. I try to offset the cost by selling the code 110 wheelsets, but would much rather avoid the hassle and buy a car with code 88 wheels already installed.

Thanks, Mark
Reading, PA 

[southeast1]

I don't want code 88 wheels, if a manufacturer was to move away from the 110 standard wheels then I will no longer be purchasing their models. I have tried code 88 on locos and freight cars, caused me nothing but grief.
Dave

[riogrande]

Aug 9, 2022 3:48:51 GMT -8 schroed2 said:

well, if you consider those who also care about good track an anomaly, you might be up to something...

Lets face it, out of all HO model railroaders out there purchasing rolling stock, the percentage that are excellent track layers is probably on the low side.

I'm picky about my track work but I haven't rebuilt my #8 turnouts of which I have a couple in the staging yard (#8 Shinohara curve code 100). I have gotten rid of all my Atlas code 100 #6 turnouts mentioned by Rob as some of the worst offenders and have switched mostly Peco code 100 in staging and code 83 elsewhere.

Here you can see one of two code 100 Shinohara #8 curve; the rest are Peco large:



I don't know of if those who care about good track work are able to actually lay track to high standards. Caring is a necessary element however. Over at MRH forums I get the impression that a significant number of members are heavily into trackwork because there is a lot of discussion of Fast Tracks turnouts being made.

But regardless, the Genesis models were switched to code 110 wheels after enough feedback was negative regarding code 88 they supplied models with for a period of time. I have quite a few Genesis models from the code 88 period and don't have any plans to replace the wheels unless I find issues running them.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Nice progress on the layout, Jim.

[cp6027]

When I purchased a Railgon from Arrowhead last year, the order form had a box to check if I wanted the standard .088 wheelsets swapped with .110 before they shipped it out. It arrived nicely re-packed with the .110 wheels I requested (due to the issues nicely described by wp8thsub).
I imagine this process works well for a smaller company that can take the time and care to handle a small number of these requests. It would probably be a nightmare for a larger firm, and comes with the downside of needing to open up the factory packaging and handle the models one additional time before they get to the consumer with the associated risk of damage.

[riogrande]

Aug 9, 2022 4:56:02 GMT -8 kentuckysouthernrwy said:

Nice progress on the layout, Jim.

Thanks. Unfortunately progress has been on hold since earlier this year when I was working on the backdrop. Here is a link to the progress of late last year and earlier this year:

atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/3737/jims-layout-topic-blog?page=5

[schroed2]

Aug 9, 2022 4:14:29 GMT -8 riogrande said:

I don't know of if those who care about good track work are able to actually lay track to high standards.

nope (using myself as an example ...) But in my experience, really high standards for track are not really necessary (or correct for the chosen prototype like PC in the seventies... ) and maybe I should have written something like "good enough" track instead.

For me, I have been able to achieve that "good enough track" work to my satisfaction (code88 on most freight cars with no derailments and no sinking in the frogs etc.) with (mostly) Peco Code 83 und Code 75 track (carefully screwed down between the ties with washers or glued when final, not nailed down). I also have some Atlas Code 83 and Walthers/Shinohara Code83 for applications where I cannot use Peco.

I never developed any lasting fondness for handlaying track/fast tracks/etc. My CVT parts (and similar items for european prototypes) are almost untouched somewhere in a box (I bought those before Peco started their Code 83 line and never looked back).

[mlwlover]

it doesnt matter to me as i machine all of my wheels down to code 75, but 88 would be better as there is less to machine.

[riogrande]

Aug 9, 2022 5:57:06 GMT -8 schroed2 said:

For me, I have been able to achieve that "good enough track" work to my satisfaction (code88 on most freight cars with no derailments and no sinking in the frogs etc.) with (mostly) Peco Code 83 und Code 75 track (carefully screwed down between the ties with washers or glued when final, not nailed down). I also have some Atlas Code 83 and Walthers/Shinohara Code83 for applications where I cannot use Peco.

(I bought those before Peco started their Code 83 line and never looked back).

On my last layout, I had "good enough track:" as far as derailments went, but I did have Atlas code 100 #6 turnouts in staging so there was that drop effect Rob described. And that is why I sold all of them off and have gone Peco, except in a few rare cases. Mainly what I focus on is good geometry, meaning decent minimum radius of 32" (most curves are 34"R or larger), modest grades of max 1.8% and easemented curves and grade changes. All curves are easmented including staging:

[fr8kar]

Aug 9, 2022 4:07:08 GMT -8 markfj said:

Is adding a new SKU that big of a deal for any manufacturer?

In my view the only one that would be affected much is Tangent since they don't bother with pre-orders and instead predict what the demand will be for their models. Of course Tangent already makes parts available including their line of wheels and trucks in both 88 and 110 versions, so I don't see any reason for them to change. Maybe they would accept their 110 wheels in trade for the 88 wheels?

For other manufacturers it's just a matter of creating the SKU and taking orders for the models, then producing the pre-orders plus extra to keep in stock. It's no different than another paint scheme besides being a significantly cheaper option to swap a piece of hardware vs. paint masks and the labor that goes into that process.

[sd80mac]

Nope. Couldn't care less about wheels as long as they're the right height.

[TBird1958]

I like the .088 wheels on cars that have exposed ends or tank cars....But, a lot of my older models don't have them.
If a model doesn't have them, and I think it needs them, I'll find a way to put them on it, easy enough.

[Donnell Wells]

In order for code 88 wheels to operate effectively, they need to be paired with track built to FineHO tolerances. No current track manufacturer produces turnouts and crossings to these tolerances.

Donnell

[edwardsutorik]

Aug 9, 2022 13:35:59 GMT -8 Donnell Wells said:

In order for code 88 wheels to operate effectively, they need to be paired with track built to FineHO tolerances. No current track manufacturer produces turnouts and crossings to these tolerances.

Donnell

I don't think so. As far as I know, the only problem is dropping into gaps at the frog, and that can be minimized.

If you assert otherwise, where do the "regular" standards fail, for Code 88?


Ed

[edwardsutorik]

Aug 9, 2022 9:40:43 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

Aug 9, 2022 4:07:08 GMT -8 markfj said:

Is adding a new SKU that big of a deal for any manufacturer?

In my view the only one that would be affected much is Tangent since they don't bother with pre-orders and instead predict what the demand will be for their models. Of course Tangent already makes parts available including their line of wheels and trucks in both 88 and 110 versions, so I don't see any reason for them to change. Maybe they would accept their 110 wheels in trade for the 88 wheels?

For other manufacturers it's just a matter of creating the SKU and taking orders for the models, then producing the pre-orders plus extra to keep in stock. It's no different than another paint scheme besides being a significantly cheaper option to swap a piece of hardware vs. paint masks and the labor that goes into that process.

Tangent could stock the cars without trucks, and then pick the trucks from the big pile, after you specify what you want. Not as much fun for him, but an incredible convenience for his customers.



Ed

[12bridge]

I would much rather have properly colored ladders, metal grabs and steps, scale draft gears, the list goes on...

..over code 88 wheels, sorry to say. Outside of tank cars and some open hoppers, I just don't see the reasoning in my opinion, and can understand a mfg' not wanting to add another set of SKU's just for that.

[riogrande]

I see it's 29 votes for code 88 wheels to 18 votes for standard 110. But I doubt it's going to change the minds of the companies.

[es80ac]

I would be satisfied for now if all manufacturers including European ones get rid of deep flanges first. Nothing ruins a model which looks good otherwise than seeing those pizza cutters and sometimes with horribly wide treads at the same time on those wheels. Some companies such as Piko just don't get the message.