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Post by Baikal on Dec 3, 2022 18:47:14 GMT -8
"Why, yes, we OWN it. We just don't CONTROL it." Yup. This is probably the root cause of 90% of Rapido's problems. They let their factory have FAR too long of a leash and it regularly comes back to bite them in the ass.
The simplest explanation is that the home office is aware of everything and doesn't care.
As long as business is good, Rapido might not even agree that problems exist. Any "problems" are the buyer's problems.
Other companies do business with this attitude / philosophy all the time. Why would model railroading be any different in 2022 Americanada?
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Post by severn on Dec 3, 2022 20:16:25 GMT -8
Because surely they have a registered wfoe there. (Wholly foreign owned enterprise). Which works with some factory somehow. They aren't the factory.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 3, 2022 20:38:04 GMT -8
"Why, yes, we OWN it. We just don't CONTROL it." Yup. This is probably the root cause of 90% of Rapido's problems. They let their factory have FAR too long of a leash and it regularly comes back to bite them in the ass. I would think the "root cause" would then actually be that they KEEP DOING IT. When things regularly come back to bite you in the ass, does it not seem like an alert to correct that problem? Emphasis on the word "regularly". If I have an operation where they keep making mistakes, I go fix it! Hopefully right between 1 and 2. Ed |
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Post by cera2254 on Dec 4, 2022 7:47:06 GMT -8
I just don’t get it. There just shouldn’t be these glaring issues that could be fixed if caught early enough. At the very least they should post the cad drawings of each road so that things can be caught before anything is physically made. It’s not like it would be any more difficult to do it correctly. I’ve been holding on to my overland Conrail C30-7 just because I’m not 100% certain the forthcoming rapido versions will be correct.
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Post by unittrain on Dec 4, 2022 8:37:14 GMT -8
Rather than fix issues they prefer comedy acting, which really reflects they're overall attitude toward concerned customers.
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 4, 2022 11:15:11 GMT -8
Rather than fix issues they prefer comedy acting, which really reflects they're overall attitude toward concerned customers. I think the customers who object to the issues and inaccuracies in Rapido's various products must be a tiny vocal minority in Rapido's point of view. Who knows? Maybe their numbers bear that out. And it might just be Rapido's choice to ignore or marginalize that minority in order to avoid having to address the points they make. Their lighthearted videos tell everyone, "hey we're just nerdy guys having fun, going crazy with the details!" Which is true I guess. Many model railroad customers - myself included - don't know all the particulars of a given prototype so when a company says they are the ones willing to get into the weeds of the details and leave nothing unnoticed most people will probably take their word for it. Of course nobody is perfect, so there comes a time when each manufacturer has to eat some humble pie. Or not. One way to avoid that is to portray the naysayers as nitpickers or villains or just flat out ignore them. Keep doing that long enough and you drive that tiny vocal minority away. |
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Post by NS4122 on Dec 4, 2022 11:53:18 GMT -8
I really don't understand how not making (humorous) marketing videos would contribute to more accurate models. It's the marketing team's job to sell the product and not to do research, or make production decisions. The hobby is supposed to be fun, but as I have said before, it seems to attract a fair number of humorless geeks who take it too seriously. Rather than fix issues they prefer comedy acting, which really reflects they're overall attitude toward concerned customers. |
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Post by zephyrgray on Dec 4, 2022 13:07:03 GMT -8
When you’re being asked to pay close to $300.00+ for a DCC/Sound engine now a days I for one expect the engine to be accurate. I’ve become cynical. Rapido seems to be one company that doesn’t define the level of detail to expect (ie. Operator/Roundhouse, Rivet Counter/Genesis, Museum Quality/2nd mortgage?  ). I usually wait until I can see the model on Rapido's website and should have done the same with the UP E8A. |
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 4, 2022 13:11:39 GMT -8
I really don't understand how not making (humorous) marketing videos would contribute to more accurate models. It's the marketing team's job to sell the product and not to do research, or make production decisions. The hobby is supposed to be fun, but as I have said before, it seems to attract a fair number of humorless geeks who take it too seriously. It wouldn't. I don't think they want to make accurate models, at least not any more accurate than they are already making. Closing in on that last fraction of accuracy gets more difficult and expensive the closer accuracy is approached. Rapido seems to think they are close enough. Other modelers disagree for a variety of reasons. And making humorous videos seems to be a tactic Rapido uses to deflect from the inaccurate models. That and implying that anyone who dares to criticize their models is a humorless geek. |
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 4, 2022 14:38:34 GMT -8
I really do not know what goes on inside Rapido, and I hate conjecture. But I can recognize that converting a scan into tooling requires hours of work "deleting" the excess information to create the raw design for a part.
Consider that Highliner got it largely right a million years ago (Intermountain wasn't very far off that mark, either), and that Walthers appears to have done well copying the Highliner nose. We know what right looks like. The Rapido unit--starting with that disgusting headlight--does not look like right.
We really did need a good E8 model because BLI is behind the times and the Proto shell has some very inaccurate curves. When Rapido did the F40PH, it was the same thing--Walthers and Kato had missed the mark by quite a bit, and Rapido (mostly) delivered on the need for a good unit (unless you want RTA or Metra). But now, this is like the original Athearn Genesis GP7 debacle, where the first run didn't just suck, it was an embarrassment that resulted in Athearn retooling the hood.
Rapido, we've been waiting since 1975 for a good model of the BN dinky units...are you going to retool the nose in time for that release, or just give up and blow it for us forever? Eat crow, go back to the scanned data, and recut that nose or my lone E9B will be all I get.
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Post by craigz on Dec 4, 2022 17:55:24 GMT -8
I haven't seen one of the E8s in the flesh. But I can tell you this. I bought three EP5s. Two of them had paint issues. Two PAs. One was defective in missing part of the lighting clear bits. That 3 out of 5 with issues. Yes, they offered to fix the EP5s which would involve me sending them to Canada. No thanks. They sent me the replacement bits for the PA. But seriously, 60% defect rate? And not to mention the RS-11 motor fiasco.
They've lost their way. The RDCs, FL9s, and the New Haven passenger cars were top shelf. But I've reached the point where I won't pre-reserve any Rapido products. I don't trust them any longer. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 4, 2022 18:24:21 GMT -8
Uh, RDC's? My two NP ones wouldn't autotune, don't run all that well, and were detailed/painted incorrectly.
For that matter, the WP Zephyrette has the lighting wrong, too. Autotune worked, though.
Do like my FL9's a LOT, and the NH cars are pretty nice, although they're only painted. I pretend they've missed a few days of washing. Maybe that's authentic; I don't know that much about the New Haven.
Ed
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Post by cemr5396 on Dec 4, 2022 18:47:47 GMT -8
issues with Rapido models are certainly not new but the frequency and severity seem to be getting worse over time. Let me think about my stuff...
Dash 8-40CMs: three models, no issues.
SW1200RS: bought two, one of them fried a motherboard and the decoder and had to be sent back for repairs
3800 cu.ft. hoppers - first run: bought 4, all have drooping end cages and one had warped trucks, which snapped when I attempted to 'un-warp' them.
3800 cu.ft. hoppers - second run: bought 2, no issues.
3800 cu.ft. hoppers - third run: bought three, wheel appearance significantly worse than earlier runs (literally re-intventing the wheel?) and extremely under weight. I can't find a non-destructive way into the cars so I will just have to live with that.
X72 Boxcars - once again very underweight, although in this case I was able to get into the cars and rectify the problem.
Husky stack well cars - bought ~5 of them between the two runs, TTX yellow in the first run was horrible - similar to the Scale Trains flatcars, truck screws are extremely short and have a nasty habit of falling out while rolling around the layout and/or stripping.
PROCOR GP20 tank cars - bought two, rolling qualities poor on both and a truck broke on one car, forcing me to replace it.
PROCOR 5820 hoppers - bought 3, no issues
not to mention poor couplers across the board, which I replace with Kadees - in some cases that is easier than others.
so in general, yeah. The track record is certainly not spectacular - and I haven't even bought any of the notably troubled models like the standard SW1200, the RS11, the PA, E units, etc etc.
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Post by atsf_4 on Dec 4, 2022 19:11:53 GMT -8
I'm not an expert on any prototype because I most certainly do not have cadd level drawings. The headlight doesn't stand out very much on the black nose of the Rapido Amtrak E-8. What is so wrong with the headlight? I'm asking nicely because I honestly don't know, though I am aware E-9's had a different headlight bezel.
I can see that the Walthers Proto E units have some roof contour issues, and some of BLI's E units definitely have better mold seams than others. On the newer ones they are truly making an effort to either sand out the mold parting lines, or to eliminate them by some other means. There also are mold seams on the Walthers Proto E unit roofs that to my eyes don't look like they should be there.
At this point I have some of everybody's E units and I know that none of them is perfect.
Please don't even get me started on paint color issues. That could get long. I fear they won't do more Santa Fe models because some of us including me have been so critical of their paint colors. The reefers are gorgeous, but not quite the right color.
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abm
Junior Member
Posts: 65
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Post by abm on Dec 4, 2022 21:15:27 GMT -8
I haven't seen one of the E8s in the flesh. But I can tell you this. I bought three EP5s. Two of them had paint issues. Two PAs. One was defective in missing part of the lighting clear bits. That 3 out of 5 with issues. Yes, they offered to fix the EP5s which would involve me sending them to Canada. No thanks. They sent me the replacement bits for the PA. But seriously, 60% defect rate? And not to mention the RS-11 motor fiasco. They've lost their way. The RDCs, FL9s, and the New Haven passenger cars were top shelf. But I've reached the point where I won't pre-reserve any Rapido products. I don't trust them any longer. Your mileage may vary. If I might ask, what was wrong with the paint on your EP5's? I'm genuinely curious... this is the first I've heard of paint issues with those. I have 4 (2 NH, 2 PC) with zero issues (that I've detected) between them. In fact, I think the EP5 is one of the best-executed models Rapido has done to date. I have a small fleet of FL9's and if I have one complaint about those, it's the numberboard housings. The fit is poor and they just don't look very good up-close. On a real F-unit the housings are seamlessly blended into the rest of the nose; but Rapido used separate parts and applied them after painting. The Genesis/Highliners shell is this way, but they "got away" with it (mostly) due to maintaining a very good fit between the numberboard housing pieces and the nose; IIRC some early Genesis models were also painted after the housings were attached. Anyway... Rapido's numberboard housings have never fit very well, either on the FL9 or their Canadian FP7/9 models, IMHO. FWIW, the Walthers Proto F-unit has molded-on housings, and while they're kinda "flat" when viewed from certain angles, they do blend very nicely with the rest of the nose. Oh, and the coupler box design on their F's... terrible. If you've ever tried to install genuine Kadees's in a Rapido F, you'll know what I mean. Regarding the E8... I only have one, Amtrak 4316. I think it's pretty well done. No portholes of course, and the black paint does hide a lot of sins, a-la nose contours and such. I'd like to get one of the NYC Jade Green E8's but will wait until they're in the wild and I can see some real photos before getting one. |
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Post by wmcbride on Dec 4, 2022 21:21:04 GMT -8
I started buying Rapido from almost the start. Oh, and I like their videos.
After having had to return a few F units for grossly fuzzy paint demarcations (like right on the nose yellow-blue separation) and some sluggish rolling stock, I have tempered my enthusiasm and no longer order sight unseen.
That said, I have some really stunning engines, passenger cars, and rolling stock from them.
Atlas used to be predictable product -- kind of like a Howard Johnson's in the old days. You knew what you were getting. Now Atlas engines (looking at you various GP units) have fallen behind in detail. All of mine still run like champs.
Athearn used to be a wait and see for wavy handrails. They seem to have gotten better or maybe it's just my luck. Their engine details are sharp and paint is applied cleanly and well (at least the engines I have bought over the last 2-3 years. I will preorder them.
I have not had any bad apples in my few Scale Trains' engines.
Bowser engines have been excellent and I admire their engineering and manufacturing processes.
Rapido, though, is a wait and see it before I fork out money. That's a shame but it has become what it has become.
Bill McBride
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Post by surlyknuckle on Dec 5, 2022 2:11:24 GMT -8
The B36-7 problem was a pretty big one for me...exclaiming how accurate the model would be, then delivering something that wasn't...at least for the SBD/CSX version when it came to the side sill and step wells. They were all shipped with truck sideframes that wore two snubbers per side, but they did send out correct replacements about a year later.
The GP20 tank car body is approximately a scale 7" too large in diameter. They also made a point of the model having 70 or 100 ton trucks as per the prototype; Which translated into the model having either 33" wheels or 36" wheels, but they all used the same 100 ton truck frames.
The X72...underweight, and the brown on the Conrail version was more of a red. Definitely off from the prototype. And I believe you could pull up prototype pictures of one of the car numbers they released and see that the model had lettering and data in different panel locations than real car #. The prototype CR painted cars were repaints, which in the real world have a tendency to vary car to car. Rapido appears to have looked at one Conrail painted X72, picked that style of lettering placement, then used that same layout for each of their car numbers when they all varied slightly.
I'm definitely not as thrilled with Rapido as I used to be...the FL9 and F40PH I own are/were really nice models that I believe set the bar for what I should expect from them. Reading about the sw1200/E units/etc really sours me on them. It's not just somebody's imagination when they say it seems as though Rapido ignores/shuts down criticism...
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Post by cemr5396 on Dec 5, 2022 5:39:58 GMT -8
The X72...underweight, and the brown on the Conrail version was more of a red. Definitely off from the prototype. And I believe you could pull up prototype pictures of one of the car numbers they released and see that the model had lettering and data in different panel locations than real car #. The prototype CR painted cars were repaints, which in the real world have a tendency to vary car to car. Rapido appears to have looked at one Conrail painted X72, picked that style of lettering placement, then used that same layout for each of their car numbers when they all varied slightly. I forgot to mention it, but I noticed that with my CN cars as well. They are all lettered the exact same while the real cars certainly are not. I don't remember if I'd heard about the GP20 tank diameter being wrong, but that is a pretty obvious mistake to make. The trucks don't come as a big surprise to me, model companies regularly get that wrong. Walthers using 100 ton trucks on their autoracks since forever comes to mind. Glad I got the modern versions that were supposed to be 100 ton in the first place. |
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Post by craigz on Dec 5, 2022 6:14:00 GMT -8
I haven't seen one of the E8s in the flesh. But I can tell you this. I bought three EP5s. Two of them had paint issues. Two PAs. One was defective in missing part of the lighting clear bits. That 3 out of 5 with issues. Yes, they offered to fix the EP5s which would involve me sending them to Canada. No thanks. They sent me the replacement bits for the PA. But seriously, 60% defect rate? And not to mention the RS-11 motor fiasco. They've lost their way. The RDCs, FL9s, and the New Haven passenger cars were top shelf. But I've reached the point where I won't pre-reserve any Rapido products. I don't trust them any longer. Your mileage may vary. If I might ask, what was wrong with the paint on your EP5's? I'm genuinely curious... this is the first I've heard of paint issues with those. I have 4 (2 NH, 2 PC) with zero issues (that I've detected) between them. In fact, I think the EP5 is one of the best-executed models Rapido has done to date. I have a small fleet of FL9's and if I have one complaint about those, it's the numberboard housings. The fit is poor and they just don't look very good up-close. On a real F-unit the housings are seamlessly blended into the rest of the nose; but Rapido used separate parts and applied them after painting. The Genesis/Highliners shell is this way, but they "got away" with it (mostly) due to maintaining a very good fit between the numberboard housing pieces and the nose; IIRC some early Genesis models were also painted after the housings were attached. Anyway... Rapido's numberboard housings have never fit very well, either on the FL9 or their Canadian FP7/9 models, IMHO. FWIW, the Walthers Proto F-unit has molded-on housings, and while they're kinda "flat" when viewed from certain angles, they do blend very nicely with the rest of the nose. Oh, and the coupler box design on their F's... terrible. If you've ever tried to install genuine Kadees's in a Rapido F, you'll know what I mean. Regarding the E8... I only have one, Amtrak 4316. I think it's pretty well done. No portholes of course, and the black paint does hide a lot of sins, a-la nose contours and such. I'd like to get one of the NYC Jade Green E8's but will wait until they're in the wild and I can see some real photos before getting one. One EP5 is a PC - it has large blemishes/scrapes on top of each nose. Impossible to overlook. The very first thing I was asked by the person I spoke with at Rapido was, "Did you buy these direct or from a dealer?" That's an immediate attempt to blame the paint damage on the dealer. And that's bullocks. I immediately called him on it and that line of questioning stopped. My preferred dealer is a first class small store guy that's been in the business for years, not some jackass box shifter. The other is a NH - there's detritus stuck in the paint on one nose. And on both the black on the sides between the doors doesn't match the cab doors/nose because they're not the same level of gloss. A coat of flat/matte would cure that, but for this kind of money it should be right straight out of the box. All three EP5s had an assortment of loose parts floating around in the box. But curiously my New Haven PAs came out of the box with all parts still attached where they should be. |
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Post by littlejoee76 on Dec 5, 2022 7:17:46 GMT -8
I wasnt impressed with my four EP5s either. Two are on display in the bookcase and the other two haven't even been out of the box. I bought the 375 with vents and three repaints.
It's the paint around the noses I dislike.
1. The nose red's not as opaque as the bodyside stripe 2 The shade of red used is supposed to be Socony Red on the original units and the 375 retained that til PC black. It's much less orange than the 406 orange red used on the 56 roadswitchers and FL9s and the coach fleet but I think the difference is a bit too exaggerated. A third shade 410 was in use by 1960 and basically split the difference and I think that's what the 62/3 repaints received to better match the coach colors but that never occurred to Rapido's consultant.
3. The NH initials on the nose should be white but are a silvery gray, appropriate for Scotchlite on Fas and PAs.
4. There's a mold seam just inboard of each of the number boxes extending from the equator of the nose all the way down to the toe of the pilot. I thought it was a tampo print (and it might be) but its just tall enough to cast a shadow and its on the pilot and not just the nose.
I have toyed with the idea of sanding out the ridge but of course it bisects all three nose colors so it'll be a swine to repaint- and beyond my current skillset.
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Post by middledivision on Dec 5, 2022 8:41:07 GMT -8
"They let their factory have FAR too long of a leash and it regularly comes back to bite them in the ass."
That's because they don't order samples from the factory before final production. They send the specs and colors and hope for the best. I looked at a fully painted and decorated sample of a new engine from a company that uses the same factory as Rapido and although it looked really good, there were over two dozen small issues that would be corrected on the final production units. A perfect example of the right and wrong way to do things.
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Post by atsf_4 on Dec 5, 2022 11:53:02 GMT -8
Kodachrome B36-7: The red is wrong, way off color based upon numerous photos available (and Athearn's models, which are arguably pretty close to the real colors). The yellow varies too much--three different shades on the model. Nose is one color. Cab is another color. Hyperbola behind the cab is yet a third color (because it was painted over the red?). Doesn't matter what sample is provided to the factory if they are painting over multiple colors of plastic and/or metal without any primer coat first.
Using primer might have helped a lot with the yellow.
I emailed Rapido to complain and they said all of them are painted the same and that they would NOT be redoing any shells to correct the problem, which I take as a big "Screw U" from them to me or us (those who wanted these models).
But the real question is: Is the Rapido E8 better or worse than the PA-1?
What is the verdict?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 5, 2022 12:31:02 GMT -8
"They let their factory have FAR too long of a leash and it regularly comes back to bite them in the ass." That's because they don't order samples from the factory before final production. They send the specs and colors and hope for the best. I looked at a fully painted and decorated sample of a new engine from a company that uses the same factory as Rapido and although it looked really good, there were over two dozen small issues that would be corrected on the final production units. A perfect example of the right and wrong way to do things. But it's THEIR factory--I remember watching the whole Youtube video tour. Ed |
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Post by cera2254 on Dec 5, 2022 12:49:44 GMT -8
PRR4261, I’ll see your Kodachrome B36-7 and raise you a Conrail RS11.
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Post by cemr5396 on Dec 5, 2022 14:13:02 GMT -8
wait, Rapido shares a factory? With who?
This is news to me.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 5, 2022 14:24:25 GMT -8
That's because they don't order samples from the factory before final production. Not true. I have seen and held factory samples of the Rapido passenger cars, FPA-4, FPB-4, caboose, SGU, FP9A and F40PH-2D plus noted photos of samples of other products as shown in many of their newsletters through the years. As SME on some of these products I had the chance to review the samples and remit comments back for correction. Most of the corrections were made except in rare cases where a business decision was made to not address a particular detail for cost purposes. |
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Post by jeoffreythecat on Dec 5, 2022 14:25:55 GMT -8
Just curious. Since Rapido is based in Canada, I presume they are paying the factory via Canadian dollars. Since the exchange rate is currently $1.35 Canada to $1 US, and almost a 2 Yuan difference between US dollars and Canadian dollars... Does this explain why Rapido might be cutting corners? They're not charging 35% more on the list price for Canadians compared to US prices.
I suppose if I posted more I could upgrade my status from "new member" since I'm approaching nine years on here.
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Post by jonklein611 on Dec 5, 2022 15:11:22 GMT -8
Just curious. Since Rapido is based in Canada, I presume they are paying the factory via Canadian dollars. Since the exchange rate is currently $1.35 Canada to $1 US, and almost a 2 Yuan difference between US dollars and Canadian dollars... Does this explain why Rapido might be cutting corners? They're not charging 35% more on the list price for Canadians compared to US prices. I suppose if I posted more I could upgrade my status from "new member" since I'm approaching nine years on here. They have posted in the past, the transactions with China are in USD. |
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Post by cera2254 on Dec 5, 2022 15:18:09 GMT -8
That's because they don't order samples from the factory before final production. Not true. I have seen and held factory samples of the Rapido passenger cars, FPA-4, FPB-4, caboose, SGU, FP9A and F40PH-2D plus noted photos of samples of other products as shown in many of their newsletters through the years. As SME on some of these products I had the chance to review the samples and remit comments back for correction. Most of the corrections were made except in rare cases where a business decision was made to not address a particular detail for cost purposes. I don’t mean this to be snarky, only to provide clarification since I really don’t know for certain. Aren’t their samples usually unpainted and Dan(?) paints them? |
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Post by severn on Dec 5, 2022 15:33:44 GMT -8
I think it's unlikely they literally own a factory in china. Everything I've read which is what mr google coughs up is they likely have a registered wfoe ("wu fee") there.. and that does business with one or more factories which they contract to. They may even have some local folks the wfoe hired and so forth but this is a not a factory itself. I think they are all like this, scale trains etc. Heck even apple contracts to foxconn.
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). I usually wait until I can see the model on Rapido's website and should have done the same with the UP E8A. 
