BLI UP Bullmoose

[sd80mac]

I will also add its really cool to see some big steam being done that aren't Challengers or Big Boys. I don't model UP, but I have a small collection of UP steam that I think one of these might be a worthy addition to.

[prr 4467]

William Kratville was an excellent, thorough author. He interviewed the people who designed UP steam, built UP steam, ran them, and the people who maintained them while all were still alive to get as much firsthand information as possible. I believe he also was a mechanical engineer. His books particularly on the 4-12-2's (among his later works) are fantastic and go into great detail about the correct valve timing and modifications that were made after construction, etc. Definitely among the most outstanding books I've ever read, at least for an engineering geek. Also Ehernberger's books about the last years of UP steam contain a wealth of detail. At that late date, it just seems much more is documented about the last years of UP steam than the last years on many other roads. Some railroads we don't even know the last run dates at all. Only approximate dates at best, while Ehernberger etc. documented not just the very last UP runs, but all the runs during the last summer of operation, including loads, empties, tonnage, crew names, etc. etc. and of course engine number.

[prr 4467]

I like steam power from more than one road, so my roster includes my "favorite locos" of all time that I'm able to actually get and afford.  Some others I'll never be able to afford again, and many are nearly impossible to find.  So what.  Run what I can.

There might be other locos I'd like to get that I don't expect to ever see in a BLI release including but not limited to the Rio Grande 2-6-6-2's and 2-6-6-0's. 

Some locos I just would not have ever "needed" until I saw BLI's brass hybrid model in person, which changed my opinions completely but not all at once.  The C&O K-2 was never on my radar, until sometime after I saw the models in person.  The T&P 2-10-4 I always thought was kinda neat, but I ignored the first run they made and only got them as they were selling out the second run.

[edwardsutorik]

Yes, that T&P locomotive was SO tempting.

I'm a goner if they ever do the A1's:





I also turned up a promising article on these locomotives (what's called a Fun Read for the likes of us):

nycshs.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/baaclasses.pdf



I'd probably have to get a Niagara and a Mohawk and a.......
Problems, problems. Problems all day long.


Ed

[edwardsutorik]

And back to the subject:

This critter being equipped with a smoke generator might turn out to be a Good Thing. MAYBE a person can remove it, and replace it with a newly minted Scale Sound enclosure, so that sound would come from the front of the engine.

One can hope.

[prr 4467]

Fun fact: The reason C&O did not purchase A-1 or similar models for quite some time is because they actually tested the K-3a mikado (similar to the K-2 class, but the allegedly "heavy" version, also not having a trailing truck booster like the K-2) and the C&O mikado actually slightly outperformed the Lima A-1. Since the new C&O K-2's, K-3's and K-3a's did so well, they waited for some time before getting those marvelous T-1 2-10-4's.

The K-2's generally served on the flat portions of the C&O as the mainstay power for many years, and they factually did handle 160 car freight trains themselves (the later T-1's did as well).

Now back to the 2-8-8-0.

Maybe if the UP 2-8-8-0 does well BLI would consider the B&O versions?

[bnsf971]

Aug 28, 2024 10:40:32 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

And back to the subject:

This critter being equipped with a smoke generator might turn out to be a Good Thing. MAYBE a person can remove it, and replace it with a newly minted Scale Sound enclosure, so that sound would come from the front of the engine.

One can hope.

The reservoir for a smoke unit may even be square or rectangular, kind of like a speaker enclosure.

[edwardsutorik]

I expect Scale Sound can make the enclosure any shape they want. I just put a "round" one in a Atlas SD24.


Ed

[cpr4200]

Ed -- BLI is doing the B&M Berkshires, which are closely related to the B&A's. Pretty much the same running gear, including the articulated trailing truck (I forget the correct term ... Lima articulated back end?). Boilers are probably very similar but covered with different accessories.

[cpr4200]

Most of my modeling interests are in the diesel era, from CP/B&M in Vermont circa 1950, to NH in the early McGinnis years (plus C425's, U25B's, and EF-4's), to NYC circa 1967, to WM and EL in the early 70's and back to CP/B&M in Vermont circa 1980. Mostly modeling what I saw, less the pre-1956 stuff (I was 3). But the Rapido D10 pushed my early CP era back to 1948 and darn, those BLI New Haven !-4's are hot! So far I've resisted the Pacifics.

[edwardsutorik]

Aug 28, 2024 14:20:09 GMT -8 cpr4200 said:

Ed -- BLI is doing the B&M Berkshires, which are closely related to the B&A's. Pretty much the same running gear, including the articulated trailing truck (I forget the correct term ... Lima articulated back end?). Boilers are probably very similar but covered with different accessories.

Thanks!

I recall checking it out when it was announced. Yes, it's a beauty. BUT. "I want it my way." But, again: tempting.

For the same reason I also passed on the T&P models.

It's gotta be the B&A A1. The A1a, in particular.




Ed

[cpr4200]

I was pointing out the similarities with the B&M thinking they'll probably do the A1, too.

[edwardsutorik]

Aug 28, 2024 15:39:19 GMT -8 cpr4200 said:

I was pointing out the similarities with the B&M thinking they'll probably do the A1, too.

I see--good thought. Here's hopin'!



Ed

[locochris]

Aug 28, 2024 10:40:32 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

And back to the subject:

This critter being equipped with a smoke generator might turn out to be a Good Thing. MAYBE a person can remove it, and replace it with a newly minted Scale Sound enclosure, so that sound would come from the front of the engine.

One can hope.

Pretty sure the Stealth versions (DCC-ready) do not have the smoke generator.  That's what I will be getting, so I can install my own decoder instead of using Paragon.

[ictom]

Aug 27, 2024 13:54:41 GMT -8 prr 4467 said:

Most likely not Autocad software. Probably whatever the factory in China uses so that everything looks the same in cadd. I know for a fact the cadd software Bowser uses is better than Autocad for this particular application and actually costs something like 8 times the cost of Autocad per license. The license cannot be shared either, so that is more than $20,000 for each individual computer that runs it (as stated by Lee English).

No disrespect intended toward Autocad. It is great for grading sites fast but was not really designed for this type of work.

Before I retired, my partner in a side business asked me to learn Fusion 360.  Seems that's what all the cutting-edge machining and fabricators needed in drawing files to make a product we might design.

I'd had enough CAD work for a lifetime (been doing it since 1980) and said no.  I have a hard enough time with AnyRail already - seems too much like work, but I do it anyway for designing my layout.

It is interesting that Fusion 360 is made by AutoDesk (AutoCAD's parent).  It takes dwg files seamlessly, as long as there are no Xrefs or attached images.  There's probably more than just a distant connection to AutoCAD's drawing environment, but I'm only speculating since I didn't follow up with my partner's suggestion.

I also don't know if Fusion 360 is what train mfrs are using, but injection molding simulation is part of the core product.  It seemed to be the software of choice for the mfrs we dealt with.

[gmpullman]

Aug 28, 2024 14:01:01 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

I expect Scale Sound can make the enclosure any shape they want. I just put a "round" one in a Atlas SD24.


Ed

SSS has their 'Boiler Barker' series that is pretty much cylindrical. I've used several in decoder upgrade work, and trashing the BLI smoke maker, while installing the speaker under the stack.


J3a_SSS speaker by Edmund, on Flickr

Everything in the foreground here gets ripped out and tossed. The sound difference is subtle BUT noticeable. I'd like to figure out how to make an audio "crossover" so I could boost the stack volume ever so slightly as it is competing with the larger air mass available in the tender. Still, it is a worthy effort to install the smokebox speaker.

Regards, Ed

[edwardsutorik]

Ed,

Thanks for the example and the guidance. Definitely something for my to-do list.

As to changing volumes, I would think it's something that could be done using the decoder. But the simple way might be to put a resistor in series with the tender speaker, and boost the overall volume.

Speakers frequently have a resistance of about 8 ohms. I note that Amazon sells both .5 ohm and 1 ohm 1/2 watt resistors. There are "smaller" available.

I've got a 1 Watt resistance substitution box that can be set for any resistance from 1 ohm, on up. I would recommend using one for any experimentation, to find a good value.

Mine was pretty affordable:

www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002KX76M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1





Other Ed

[prr 4467]

I am really excited about these because it's just such a neat loco. I'm not a UP guy, but I have to have at least one.  For me it's cooler than even the early version brass hybrid challenger.  I sold my challenger to get a 2-10-4.  Can't afford everything I want.

Pre-order just placed with The Station, New Cumberland, PA. They will actually do the order tomorrow when my buddy the owner is there.

[edwardsutorik]

FWIW, I saw a picture of one of these at Dunsmuir, CA--hired out to the SP.


Ed

[prr 4467]

Yes, interesting. One poster above said SP leased 4 of them (not road numbers available to buy in this run).

From what I've been able to read the warbaby ex-N&W and ex-C&O 2-8-8-2's were just too darn slow, even after UP rebuilt several (11?) of the ex-C&O locos, to get out of the way of traffic on Sherman Hill.  They slowed down whatever trains were behind them.

In contrast, the simpled UP 2-8-8-0's had their driver diameter increased to 59" according to both Utahrails.net and steamlocomotive.com, and that combined with the other upgrades made them fast enough to run with the Challengers when they needed to do so.  So almost all 2-8-8-0's outlasted the secondhand 2-8-8-2's.  UP began simpling the 2-8-8-0's in 1936 and actually did not finish all 70 locos until 1946.  Over time the feedwater heaters changed, the air pumps moved to the pilot deck, etc. which is why BLI is doing two versions of these rebuilt locos to cover a majority of them.

They at least ran fast enough to not overly slow down other trains on the grades and many of them outlasted some of the 4-12-2's which were built to replace them, likely simply due to shop dates or failures dooming some 4-12-2's early.

[sd80mac]

There are a few pictures of these working as helpers with Challengers and Big Boys on Sherman Hill in the early 50s. Slower than the later two, obviously, but evidently fast enough to run with their higher-drivered younger brothers.

[prr 4467]

Permit a correction:

After studying more about these locos and looking at some of the available photos, it appears that some of the 1930's rebuilds (BLI's earlier model version) did in fact run in that configuration into at least the mid-1940's. So, while the post-1944 version definitely represents some of the last rebuilds, there were earlier versions still running at the same time. The rebuilds took place basically from 1936 to 1943 or '44 or later, depending upon the source I'm reading. They took their time and rebuilt locos as they came due for major repairs. ALL 70 locos got the rebuild, but the feedwater heater type and whether or not the air pumps moved to the front pilot deck appear to be the main variations. What appears to be confusing is some of the photo descriptions I found contained what appear to be inaccuracies: locos still in compound form mislabeled as having been rebuilt, when that is definitely not the case, as the large front cylinders do not lie--they just weren't rebuilt yet.  OR rather some compounds ran into the 1940's but did receive the upgraded BL feedwater heater and air pumps high on the front left side--just as the mid-30's on rebuilds received.

Thank you folks for the book suggestions.  I ordered one so far.

Edit:  Either I missed it or BLI changed the listings on the website slightly for clarification.  They now show the early version as "pre-1944 appearance".  That should clear up any confusion.

[Funnelfan]

I'm so tempted to buy one of these BLI models as I live and railfan near their old stomping grounds between Huntington and Pendleton, OR over the 2.2% grades of the Blue Mountains which feature three separate mountains to cross. The locomotives were extremely brutish looking for steam locomotives....so ugly they looked good. They remained in use here until 1953.

[edwardsutorik]

Yes, they are extremely "railroady" looking.

The 2.2% was the steepest mainline on the UP--a good place to put slow power.

Ed

[locochris]

I've been debating whether to get the post-1944 model or the pre-1944 model. Does anyone know if all of the prototypes with the pre-1944 look were eventually converted to the post 1944 look? Such as #3548 for example. Or were both versions running at the same time until retirement in 1954?

[prr 4467]

I just got the two books from the UP historical society that cover locos 3500 to 3569.

Additionally, I've been looking at online photos at various locations.

I've been trying to answer the question above: did the pre-1944 versions last later than 1944?

It appears that a few actually did, but that is problematic because the photo dates on some photos are not well documented or may be incorrect. I found at least ONE instance of a pre-1944 loco that may have still been in that configuration by as late as 1947 or so, but later photos of the very same loco (I'd have to go back and find the number--they run together in my head), show that in fact it was later upgraded to the post-1944 appearance. Meaning that although it was simpled in the late 1930's, it ran with the Worthington BL4 fwh and air pumps on the left side well into the 1940's and then was upgraded to the newer model Worthington fwh (rectangular box in front of smoke stack) with air pumps on the pilot deck.

I'll try to find that loco again tonight and will post an update.

I can say that that loco was one of the last to operate for UP.  In fact, 3512 (which BLI is doing) operated late into 1954.  Some of them ran up until late December of 1954.  One was vacated on December 31, with others vacated from the roster on the previous few days.  

Although the books try to show left- and right-side photos of each loco, there are some locos for which only right-side photos appear.  This does not help us answer this question.

From the vast majority of photos it does appear that the pre-1944 versions generally did not last that long after 1944 without upgrading to the post-1944 appearance.  It appears BLI has indeed done their homework on these.  Piping arrangements do differ in details regarding the smaller sized pipes on the smokebox front left side, but most appear to be similar to what BLI has announced.  Caveat:  I'm not a steam expert.

[edwardsutorik]

Sept 17, 2024 9:18:43 GMT -8 prr 4467 said:

Although the books try to show left- and right-side photos of each loco, there are some locos for which only right-side photos appear.  This does not help us answer this question.

I think a right side should WOULD be helpful. Since most of these photos on the right side show whether there is or is not an air pump up on the pilot. If it's on the pilot, it can't be on the left side.

I see some photos of these locos without feedwater heaters. But if there is a feedwater heater on the smokebox, ahead of the stack, there cannot be one on the left side of the loco.

Thanks very much for putting in the work on this subject! I kind of lean towards the aesthetics of the early version, with the BL heater. But I want my loco(s) to be available to work in both 1945 and 1950. So, at least for the nonce, I'll be ordering the "late" version. I am pleased that these did get all the way into Portland. They weren't exactly ideal running along the Columbia, but were just the thing for over the Blue Mountains. There's some photos on pages 63 and 64 of Jim Griffiths' "Union Pacific, First Subdivision, Oregon Division" of THREE of these locos (3551, 3562 and 3521--all non-BL) moving a train in that area. May 18, 1947. The first two have Vanderbilt tenders with 4-wheel trucks, the last one has the "semi-Vanderbilt" as on these models. Also showing is a CA-1 woody, a semaphore, and a three-light signal.



Ed

[soggycornflakes]

Aug 28, 2024 10:40:32 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

And back to the subject:

This critter being equipped with a smoke generator might turn out to be a Good Thing. MAYBE a person can remove it, and replace it with a newly minted Scale Sound enclosure, so that sound would come from the front of the engine.

One can hope.

That is exactly what I did on my UP-5 9000 4-12-2. I 3D designed and printed my own speaker enclosure to fit into that vacated smoke generator space and glued a surplus Scale Sounds speaker onto it. Sounds absolutely wonderful with the sounds coming from the correct location, especially on such a long loco.

[edwardsutorik]

Good to hear that it'll work.

Thanks,


Ed

[prr 4467]

Ed--

Oddly enough there are a handful of photos that do show air pumps mounted on the front pilot but STILL a big BL4 feedwater heater on the left side of the loco, and the space where the air pumps were is just blank--below the raised walkway.

I'll post more info. later.