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Post by riogrande on Oct 16, 2024 9:18:49 GMT -8
There was a time maybe 34 some years ago when the idea of cutting track and the stuff mentioned in 1. was a bit of a head trip for me. At the time I figured I'd have to use a razer saw to cut flex track which sounded like a pain. Then I got a Dremel with the cutoff disc and I had devoured my Track Planning for Realistic Operation book to the point it was worn. When I got the space to actually start building a layout in a garage while I was in graduate school and everything "clicked" then I started using code 100 flex track and cork and track nails - it was around 1992. I drew up a track plan for the space in the garage with 30" minimum radius, max 2.5% grade with a yard and a passing siding and a loop with 3 tracks on either end to send the train back the other way and stage trains in the loops. Unfortunately when I finished my masters degree it was time to move so that layout only reached the plywood pacific stage - I did build it so it could be broken down into sections and sold it to someone who was happy to have a layout built to that level. Since I moved to northern Virginia I did get some Unitrack to make some test track loops when I didn't have anywhere but a living room floor to run some locos.
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Post by Baikal on Oct 16, 2024 9:54:16 GMT -8
Baikal - I never said Kato used "USCS" measurements, someone else brought that in. Inches and Feet aren't American per se, they were developed and used for centuries in Europe before the US even existed. Japan uses a mix of metric, feet/inches, and traditional Japanese measuring systems. Even before WW2, Japan was making products for the American market. If you buy a Japanese car in America, the speedometer doesn't just have KPH. Similarly, the Kato website lists dimensions in both inches and metric. I'm very familiar with Kato and it's website, having used their products for many decades. I don't see anything where they say "We are a Japanese company, so only use metric measurements". They use both. Yes it could just be a wacky coincidence that their middle/base radius curve just happens to be 24" - long referred to as "conventional" radius in HO scale in North America, and still used a minimum radius for some company's products (like Walthers passenger cars with body mounted couplers). Or it could be they chose it recognizing that America could be a big market for them, so set up a system appealing to both countries. If nothing else, please stop referring to me as some kind of know-nothing "Merica First" yahoo. I have no problem with the metric system, I grew up with grandparents where were immigrants from Europe, and studied European history (esp. British history) in University. I've even been to Europe twice. The only point I was making is that I've heard people say they won't try Kato Unitrack because it's too confusing because it's "metric". It's not - it's all labelled both in inches and mm. Middle radius is 24", three sizes larger and three smaller, each 2-3/8" part. That's what it is says in the Kato website and on their brochures, catalogs, and packaging. It also has metric measurements if you're more familiar with those.
For the what, 4th time? Kato makes a 610mm curve, which is not a 24" curve since 24" is equal to 609.6mm (24 x 25.4 = 609.6). 610 does not equal 609.6. Can you see the logic there?
So Kato does not make a 24" radius curve. The USCS ('murican) measurements are due to rounding to the nearest 1/8" to placate Americans that can not or will not understand metric (ferner) measurements.
But you're literally saying Kato's metric measuremenrts are rounded from precise USCS measurements, lol.
It says so right on Kato's website. See the numbers that come first? Primary, top-level, #1? The numbers not in parenthesis. The numbers which are not rounded. katousa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/HO-Unitrack.pdf
Don't take my (or some other's here) word for it- go look at it. Have you done so?
You've chosen a very odd hill to die on.
Kato track is metric-based, rounded to USCS nearest 1/8".
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Post by Baikal on Oct 16, 2024 10:05:38 GMT -8
I have some Kato Unitrack for some test loops and it says right on the package what the US equivalents are. I just looked at one package and it says 28 3/4 radius. The largest radius that would fit on a 4x8 sheet would be: Kato HO 2210 Unitrack R550mm 21-5/8" Radius Curve 22.5-Degree (4) SKU: KAT-2210
Not US equivalants. You're seeing metric measurements (in 60mm increments) rounded to the nearest 1/8 inch.
The word "equal" means something:
"...a relationship between two quantities or expressions, stating that they have the same value, or represent the same mathematical object.[1] Equality between A and B is written A = B, and pronounced "A equals B". In this equality, A and B are distinguished by calling them left-hand side (LHS), and right-hand side (RHS). Two objects that are not equal are said to be distinct."
If you convert Kato's rounded US measurements back to metric using this handy formula [1" = 25.4mm], you will come up with different metric measurements. Which will be wrong, aka not the track's real radius . Note that the formula is an exact ratio for inches : mm. If you remember that you can do all sorts of conversions to & from metric- distance, area, volume... easy.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 16, 2024 11:45:21 GMT -8
The USCS ('murican) measurements are due to rounding to the nearest 1/8" to placate Americans that can not or will not understand metric (ferner) measurements. I do wonder, if I am selling 1/4" diameter brass rod in France, whether I am "placating" the French by putting a metric dimension in parentheses after the inch dimension. Does placating only go in one direction? I have written to someone in Europe about steam engine driver diameters in this country. I write those dimensions in US measurements, because that is how they were created, and how I, the writer, think of them. I also include a metric conversion (in parentheses) as a helpful guide. I have also received information from Europe with those systems reversed. No placating intended, from either side. I hope. Ed |
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Post by Baikal on Oct 16, 2024 15:48:05 GMT -8
The USCS ('murican) measurements are due to rounding to the nearest 1/8" to placate Americans that can not or will not understand metric (ferner) measurements. I do wonder, if I am selling 1/4" diameter brass rod in France, whether I am "placating" the French by putting a metric dimension in parentheses after the inch dimension. (Yes.) Does placating only go in one direction? (No.) I have written to someone in Europe about steam engine driver diameters in this country. I write those dimensions in US measurements, because that is how they were created, and how I, the writer, think of them. I also include a metric conversion (in parentheses) as a helpful guide. I have also received information from Europe with those systems reversed. No placating intended, from either side. I hope. Ed
I had a Lambert 10-speed bike, made somewhere in the UK in the 70s, I think. I broke one of the crank bolts and it was Whitworth threads, of course. Not SAE, not metric. I called all over looking for a replacement, including British car junkyards. Everyone said people had scrounged up all the Whitworth nuts & bolts from junk like MGs years ago. Luckily I worked next to a small machine shop and they were kind enough to make me a bolt for free.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 16, 2024 15:55:52 GMT -8
Next time, try: britishfasteners.com/bolts.htmlI seem to recall Whitworth as being pretty common around these parts, back in the day. Mean Marshall's Motorcycles, and all. Still in business, by the way. Ed |
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Post by grahamline on Oct 16, 2024 18:29:57 GMT -8
[/quote] I had a Lambert 10-speed bike, made somewhere in the UK in the 70s, I think. I broke one of the crank bolts and it was Whitworth threads, of course. Not SAE, not metric. I called all over looking for a replacement, including British car junkyards. Everyone said people had scrounged up all the Whitworth nuts & bolts from junk like MGs years ago. Luckily I worked next to a small machine shop and they were kind enough to make me a bolt for free.
[/quote] I moonlighted for a while in shop that worked on whatever rolled in. We had a nice cart of metric tools, a box of some Whitworth tools for old MGs and the occasional Jag, and everybody has their own SAE basics. We chose the tools to fit the job and found no need to fuss about converting one to the other. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 16, 2024 19:48:38 GMT -8
Metric tools arrived in the US when Japanese motorcycles did the same. Before that, metric was for dilittantes and worse. Suddenly, YOUR motor vehicle needed tools other than inch fractional.
Oddly, everyone got through that in about a minute and a half. "Buy a new tool? ALRIGHT!!!!"
THAT was the beginning of metrication in the US. THAT was the first time Americans had to deal with 6mm nuts.
Was that viewed as a revelation by all the unwashed beer-swillers? Did they feel oppressed by the furrin measurement system?
Not that I noticed. They just went about their life, doing what needed doing. A lot like the south-of-the-border guys who show up here to do construction that were taught in metric. Welcome to fractional inches. Have a beer!
Ed
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Post by Christian on Oct 17, 2024 0:52:23 GMT -8
Oddly, everyone got through that in about a minute and a half. "Buy a new tool? ALRIGHT!!!!" LOL! That was me. I still buy tools, metric or not. Depends on the job. Anyone in HO scale knows the mix of metric and imperial. 3.5mm equals one foot. Indeed. |
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Post by prr 4467 on Oct 17, 2024 9:37:27 GMT -8
Hi Ed--
I don't think it is placating anybody to show measurements in dual units? That's how it is done on actual heavy construction plans. One dimensional system is always expressed inside parenthesis, and the other system is not. It's the only way to do it clearly.
John
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 17, 2024 11:19:39 GMT -8
Hi Ed-- I don't think it is placating anybody to show measurements in dual units? That's how it is done on actual heavy construction plans. One dimensional system is always expressed inside parenthesis, and the other system is not. It's the only way to do it clearly. John I have written to someone in Europe about steam engine driver diameters in this country. I write those dimensions in US measurements, because that is how they were created, and how I, the writer, think of them. I also include a metric conversion (in parentheses) as a helpful guide. I have also received information from Europe with those systems reversed. No placating intended, from either side. I hope. Ed |
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Post by wagnersteve on Oct 17, 2024 13:17:26 GMT -8
10/17/24, about 5:15 p.m., EDT
Amen to the two previous posts!
As I recall, Canada has gone fully metric; the last time I was there, I'm quite sure that speed limit signs were in kilometers per hour.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 17, 2024 14:16:11 GMT -8
10/17/24, about 5:15 p.m., EDT Amen to the two previous posts! As I recall, Canada has gone fully metric; the last time I was there, I'm quite sure that speed limit signs were in kilometers per hour. The last time I drove through Canada was more than 20 years ago and yes, distances and speed were all metric. |
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Post by Baikal on Oct 17, 2024 16:15:58 GMT -8
This was a bolt, not a tool so I had to fuss to get a Whitworth bolt because no metric or SAE bolt could ever fit, no matter the size. The thread geometry is different. Like IP vs NPT vs hose threads which are incompatible no matter the tool used.
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Post by Baikal on Oct 17, 2024 16:30:46 GMT -8
10/17/24, about 5:15 p.m., EDT Amen to the two previous posts! As I recall, Canada has gone fully metric; the last time I was there, I'm quite sure that speed limit signs were in kilometers per hour.
Not the railroads. CCOR still uses MPH, miles, feet, MPs (mileposts). Km or Kilometer is not in the Canadian rulebook.
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Post by bmoore765 on Oct 18, 2024 14:48:43 GMT -8
I almost regret asking the question. I thought it was common knowledge that Kato Unitrack was a metric system. So, maybe I’ll pose the original question a different way. If I have a layout planned utilizing 4x8s and 22” curves can I reliably use 550mm (21 5/8) curves. Or is that too small for the 22” minimum recommended for most models?
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Post by wagnersteve on Oct 18, 2024 15:00:35 GMT -8
10/18/24, about 7 p.m., EDT
Baikal, thanks for your latest post. The link you provided certainly gives speeds in mile per hour.
What does CCOR stand for?
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Post by Baikal on Oct 18, 2024 18:26:34 GMT -8
10/18/24, about 7 p.m., EDT Baikal, thanks for your latest post. The link you provided certainly gives speeds in mile per hour. What does CCOR stand for?
My bad, it's CROR, Canadian Rail Operating Rules tc.canada.ca/en/rail-transportation/rules/2022-2023/canadian-rail-operating-rules/definitions
I had the acronym for the old Consolidated Code of Operating Rules on my mind.
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Post by wagnersteve on Oct 19, 2024 3:39:50 GMT -8
10/19/24, 7:39 a.m., EDT
Baikal, thanks!
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 20, 2024 13:02:22 GMT -8
I almost regret asking the question. I thought it was common knowledge that Kato Unitrack was a metric system. So, maybe I’ll pose the original question a different way. If I have a layout planned utilizing 4x8s and 22” curves can I reliably use 550mm (21 5/8) curves. Or is that too small for the 22” minimum recommended for most models? And I'll respond with my original question back to you. What equipment are you running on said track? Most models will run just fine on 22" and a large majority will run okay / fine on 18" curves (if using long shank couplers). But the answer is highly dependent on the type / length of equipment you will be running. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2024 14:28:25 GMT -8
I almost regret asking the question. I thought it was common knowledge that Kato Unitrack was a metric system. So, maybe I’ll pose the original question a different way. If I have a layout planned utilizing 4x8s and 22” curves can I reliably use 550mm (21 5/8) curves. Or is that too small for the 22” minimum recommended for most models? 21 5/8 is 98% of 22. Clearly, most rolling stock that will accept 22" radius will also accept 21 5/8". SOME may not. But the only way to get the guarantee (your use of the term "reliably" indicates that) you seem to be asking for is for someone to test ALL equipment through both sizes of curve, and then to make a list of the ones that made it through the 22 but not the smaller. No one has done that. No one will do that. So there is no guarantee. I am NOT saying there's anything wrong with asking the question. But there is unfortunately no SURE answer. This is why some people make a point of avoiding the "ragged edge" of minimum radius. Ed |
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Post by prr 4467 on Oct 21, 2024 9:00:30 GMT -8
My answer to the question, 18 years ago, was to design my layout with Kato Unitrack, but I intentionally used the 26.375" minimum radius--so that I was NOT running equipment on the "ragged edge" of minimum radius.
Certainly, one CAN do that, and as Ed said above, most of the equipment that operates at 22" radius will still operate reliably at 21.625" radius. I simply cannot guarantee that ALL will do so.
The manufacturers' recommended minimum radius is a suggestion, and not necessarily a requirement. People have been violating, err going below, the minimum radius suggestions for years. IF trackwork is good and relatively free of kinks both horizontal and vertical, one has a better chance that it (21.625" radius) will work just fine.
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