thmy
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Posts: 140
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Post by thmy on Oct 30, 2024 10:22:23 GMT -8
I noticed on another forum a post about Athearn and I couldn't agree more. Here were the issues discussed copy/pasted below here. Does anyone have any inside knowledge on what is going on over there?
What is going on at Athearn? They no longer have estimated arrival information, they are over a year late on several announcement deliveries, I keep seeing posts on Facebook about items in stock that I thought would have long been sold out. Looking at their website they have a lot of stock. Furthermore, prices have increased more than their competition at least in percentage increase of MSRP. Is Horizon trying to tank their business because it sure seems they aren't trying to compete.
What being super unorganized and super late hurts is some people's pocket books when the item never comes, comes early, comes really late, etc. I budget yearly for models and Athearn is the only one that has slipped from mid points in one year to early/mid/late points in the next going on two years now. Additionally, either the Athearn management has no backbone against Horizon or they simply do not care to fight back. One of the previous reps once told me at a train show they have to push back against Horizon hard to get anything accomplished for modelers. Rapido and ScaleTrains are already very competitive with the same types of locomotives Athearn produces. They far exceed Athearn's sound decoder, detail and features in my opinion. I could easily see Athearn is non existent or barely existent like Intermountain in 5 years.
The Athearn employees don't seem to care that their jobs are slipping away in front of their very eyes. Rapido's announcement of the P32, Bi level commuter cars, GP40's and many more offered items including rolling stock tears a chunk out of Athearn's sales. ScaleTrains ES44AC, SD40-2, Dash 9, AC4400CW, AC44C6M, SD38-2, SD40T-2 and many rolling stock pieces is also tearing a hole in Athearn's profitability. Broadway Limited has made Athearn's steam locomotives look like overpriced old molds in comparison, especially with the addition of their DCC ready line. Even Walthers mainline is taking a bite out of what used to be the Athearn Ready to Roll and Roundhouse offerings. The competitors smell blood in the water, they're just waiting on the carcas to finish off. There is zero chance sales are up compared to the Shane Wilson or Chris Palomartez era.
Meanwhile, the employees clock in and clock out. The passion doesn't seem to be there, especially in the Brand Manager position. The guy looks like he'll ride the gravy train as long as he can but won't do anything to push back to Horizon's bean counters or decision makers. That approach may be to his own peril one day and if other companies see what we see in him, they won't hire him on so he'll have to find work outside the hobby. Usually the worst managers survive in disfunctional corporate environments so maybe he'll survive but others may not be so lucky. But that's some years off and there's still time to turn it around.
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 30, 2024 11:53:43 GMT -8
Athearn has to play within the confines of what Horizon lets them do. They are essentially a small fish in a very large company.
They are working on a fix to the website for delivery dates. I'm assuming they are waiting on resources to complete the task. Someone from Athearn does post on here and provides awesome updates and explanations of what's going on.
Slips in estimated arrival times are going to happen. Nothing is ever done completely perfectly out of the gate. Some parts may need to be corrected, paint may need to be redone, etc (weeks to months of delay). Any one of these could significantly delay the project release schedule. It may even force the project to be significantly delayed if you need to wait for the next open slot in production (months to years of delay). There could also be delays due to incoming supply chains (motors, DCC decoders, wiring, bulk material), outgoing logistics (shipping, import / export, customs, major holidays). A production run might be delayed due to reprioritization of work (new project is more important, or a fix is needed quickly for an existing product). Atlas has slips, Athearn has slips, Bachmann has slips, Rapido has slips. The only way you can prevent any type of slip is waiting until product is at your distribution center before you announce it's available (ala Tangent). This has tremendous risk if you incorrectly estimate the appropriate volume of product to be sold.
Forecasting large complex projects is really incredibly difficult. I'd say overall, the big manufacturers do a great job of giving reasonable initial estimates. Some aren't so great about providing transparency on how things are going, others do a great job of communicating what step the project is in, when they expect delivery, and give updates as things change or shift for various reasons.
I'd argue that Rapido's P32 doesn't really tear into Athearn's sales. Rapido provided assistance for Athearn to work on getting the VIA P42s produced and appropriately licensed. I'm not involved directly in any of the companies mentioned here, but it has been mentioned / discussed before that a lot of companies talk to each other about product roadmaps so they don't step on each other's toes.
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Post by gevohogger on Oct 30, 2024 12:20:14 GMT -8
How many times have we had this same topic? Are you a Horizon stockholder or something? Give it a rest for a change.
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Post by hudsonyard on Oct 30, 2024 12:45:41 GMT -8
Gets here when it gets here. It's a hobby and I have enough projects lined up.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 30, 2024 14:52:59 GMT -8
Locomotives and rolling stock are the LAST thing I NEED "right now".
Far more important for prompt delivery is:
A-Line boxes and foam to store all the stuff I already have
track and switches to put under all the stuff I already have
decoders and speakers to put inside all the stuff I already have
Floquil/Scalecoat to paint all the stuff I already have
dot...dot...dot...
Ed
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Post by wagnersteve on Oct 30, 2024 15:17:55 GMT -8
10/30/2024, restarting about 7:15 p.m., EDT
gevohogger, which participant on this forum were you referring to when you typed "you"?
I don't remember seeing earlier posts by thmy, but as far as I know, jonklein611 has no affiliation with either Horizon or Athearn. Instead, he is often the first to post large parts of the latest announcements by Rapido Trains on this forum.
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 30, 2024 15:31:07 GMT -8
10/30/2024, restarting about 7:15 p.m., EDT gevohogger, which participant on this forum were you referring to when you typed "you"? I don't remember seeing earlier posts by thmy, but as far as I know, jonklein611 has no affiliation with either Horizon or Athearn. Instead, he is often the first to post large parts of the latest announcements by Rapido Trains on this forum. I think gevo was responding to the original poster, not my input. |
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Post by Mr. Trainiac on Oct 30, 2024 16:44:10 GMT -8
Athearn has plenty of cool products, it's not like Scaletrains and BLI have taken every locomotive from them. The SD90/43MAC and MAC-H are great, and they easily beat Kato in detailing. Janek, if you're reading this, I will literally sell my soul to Horizon Hobbies to get the SD90 demonstrators GM 90, 91, and 92.
The Surfliner cars are still coming too. Athearn has a pretty large inventory of nice tooling, so it's not like they need to make every announcement a new model. Rotate in some older models that haven't been done in a while, and it would probably generate as much excitement as a new tool. When's the last time we saw BN Executive SD70MACs?
They have also been retooling models to have upgrades like lit number boards. I think a 'continuous improvement' approach makes sense to keep their models relevant. Incorporating upgrades and mold reconfigurations allows you to expand into new railroads and phases just as much as a brand new shell.
One thing I'd like to see from Athearn though are new tank cars. I think Athearn does tank cars really well; even the RTR cars are pretty detailed, and the price is better than Walthers Proto. In real life, tank cars are probably the most varied and specialized cars on the rails, but it feels like all the hobby brands have the same LPG and crude oil cars. It would be nice to get more smaller capacity cars or other unusual models. Rail Whales or crogenic cars maybe?
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Post by prr 4467 on Oct 30, 2024 19:24:58 GMT -8
I would say that reports of Athearn's demise are greatly exaggerated.
I have had many wonderful experiences with Athearn products through the years.
However, I would have to say that I do not care for Soundtraxx Tsunami sound. Any of it. It still just isn't as good as the other guys. Some of the Athearn locos have really cool LED lights, but if the body for whatever reason isn't screwed down absolutely as tight as possible, the connectors for those lights do not work well...SD70ACe...
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 30, 2024 19:38:52 GMT -8
I don't think screwing the body down is the key to solving the problem with lights not working well.
So far, I've found that I have to solder all the connections on the board.
IT'S A MIRACLE CURE, FOLKS.
Ed
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Post by prr 4467 on Oct 31, 2024 11:51:17 GMT -8
The locos I'm talking about have a metal tab on the body shell connected to the LED and a separate metal tab on the chassis, somewhat of a copy of some Bowser SD40-2's (where their system works really well). Unfortunately, on the Athearn/Soundtraxx equipped units, the metal tabs do not make a good connection unless the body is screwed down tight, which some of the mounts are then easy to break loose and then the LED lights don't work on a brand new loco. Not a good design.
So far as soldering around/to circuit boards, I don't have the equipment or the expertise for that. Regular old soldering of track, I could, but I hate doing it.
Maybe not everyone has the same expertise as Ed. There are reasons that I draw pretty pictures for others to build while not building some things myself (also the cadd design work does pay a bit better than many construction jobs).
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 31, 2024 14:57:18 GMT -8
The Athearn models I've worked on don't have metal tabs on the shells that mate with metal tabs on the frame. The ones I've worked on have the wiring going directly to the decoder board, where it's held on by little plastic slide-on clips. For some reason, all four of a batch of Athearn UP GP9's had a problem with the clips. Some of the lights didn't work. Some of the lights occasionally wouldn't work. I soldered all the connections, and the problem went away.
So far, I haven't opened up an Athearn product that has those jumper tabs between the body and the frame. It surely seems like a good idea, if/when it works.
Ed
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Post by cera2254 on Oct 31, 2024 16:12:27 GMT -8
The Athearn models I've worked on don't have metal tabs on the shells that mate with metal tabs on the frame. The ones I've worked on have the wiring going directly to the decoder board, where it's held on by little plastic slide-on clips. For some reason, all four of a batch of Athearn UP GP9's had a problem with the clips. Some of the lights didn't work. Some of the lights occasionally wouldn't work. I soldered all the connections, and the problem went away. So far, I haven't opened up an Athearn product that has those jumper tabs between the body and the frame. It surely seems like a good idea, if/when it works. Ed I believe at least the SD70ACe uses the tab type connection instead of wires going between shell and frame. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Oct 31, 2024 16:16:26 GMT -8
The Athearn models I've worked on don't have metal tabs on the shells that mate with metal tabs on the frame. The ones I've worked on have the wiring going directly to the decoder board, where it's held on by little plastic slide-on clips. For some reason, all four of a batch of Athearn UP GP9's had a problem with the clips. Some of the lights didn't work. Some of the lights occasionally wouldn't work. I soldered all the connections, and the problem went away. So far, I haven't opened up an Athearn product that has those jumper tabs between the body and the frame. It surely seems like a good idea, if/when it works. Ed many newer or recently reworked Genesis locos have the spring loaded contacts inside the shell similar to what I believe ScaleTrains widely uses for a wireless connection between the body and the chassis. examples I have include the newest release of SD70M-2/SD70ACe, and the Dash 9/AC4400CW. I've never found it to be particularly problematic, and in the one instance where I did have problems, I simply broke out the soldering iron and lightly tinned the contacts on the inside of the shell. The small amount of extra tension on the contacts solved the problem perfectly. |
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Post by sd80mac on Nov 1, 2024 5:34:54 GMT -8
The first use of contact wipers for lights mating the shell to the frame that I can remember were the ditch lights on the Atlas C40-8Ws. Every single one I've ever owned eventually loses contact and requires a wired jumper.
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joppasub
Full Member
Retired; Now a full time modeler
Posts: 147
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Post by joppasub on Nov 4, 2024 13:52:13 GMT -8
You know...people can whine about the delays and all that stuff...but we're still much better off in the hobby than we were just 10 years ago. So I don't get the constant shilling against Athearn and anyone that makes freight cars but Tangent...but hey, it's a free country. Shill away.
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thmy
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by thmy on Nov 5, 2024 5:41:24 GMT -8
You know...people can whine about the delays and all that stuff...but we're still much better off in the hobby than we were just 10 years ago. So I don't get the constant shilling against Athearn and anyone that makes freight cars but Tangent...but hey, it's a free country. Shill away. Shilling is describing supporting something not going against it. So that's not the correct word for what you're trying to describe. As for the anti - Athearn stance, I have plenty of Athearn. I am just saying as long as we do nothing and let them continue the behavior, then they will continue to act that way and not fix anything. You see where it's gotten Internmountain, many people said enough is enough with the delays and vaporware so they are a shell of their former self. Athearn is headed down the same path. Consumers call the shots, and the sooner companies realize this and are held to account or account for themselves and own mistakes, the better. |
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Post by marknycfan on Nov 5, 2024 7:51:55 GMT -8
Let's return to the 1980's when there weren't announcements a year in advance and new items more or less showed up, 5 or 6 new items a year!
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joppasub
Full Member
Retired; Now a full time modeler
Posts: 147
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Post by joppasub on Nov 5, 2024 8:09:18 GMT -8
You know...people can whine about the delays and all that stuff...but we're still much better off in the hobby than we were just 10 years ago. So I don't get the constant shilling against Athearn and anyone that makes freight cars but Tangent...but hey, it's a free country. Shill away. Shilling is describing supporting something not going against it. So that's not the correct word for what you're trying to describe. As for the anti - Athearn stance, I have plenty of Athearn. I am just saying as long as we do nothing and let them continue the behavior, then they will continue to act that way and not fix anything. You see where it's gotten Internmountain, many people said enough is enough with the delays and vaporware so they are a shell of their former self. Athearn is headed down the same path. Consumers call the shots, and the sooner companies realize this and are held to account or account for themselves and own mistakes, the better. Regardless...I think you get the gist of what I am saying...There is no reason to come onto a forum and complain about delays...with all of the manufacturing being done in China, IMO. I am using the word "shill" in a context here to further describe what is going on with this thread (IMO). The content of the post you shared was really interesting as it claimed several things regarding the relationship between Athearn and Horizon Hobby...which is why I used the shilling term too...maybe I should say "anti-shilling"? Athearn is just as frustrated with delays and production issues; because they are the widget makers. Without product...no cash for future widgets. |
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thmy
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by thmy on Nov 5, 2024 13:11:53 GMT -8
Shilling is describing supporting something not going against it. So that's not the correct word for what you're trying to describe. As for the anti - Athearn stance, I have plenty of Athearn. I am just saying as long as we do nothing and let them continue the behavior, then they will continue to act that way and not fix anything. You see where it's gotten Internmountain, many people said enough is enough with the delays and vaporware so they are a shell of their former self. Athearn is headed down the same path. Consumers call the shots, and the sooner companies realize this and are held to account or account for themselves and own mistakes, the better. Regardless...I think you get the gist of what I am saying...There is no reason to come onto a forum and complain about delays...with all of the manufacturing being done in China, IMO. I am using the word "shill" in a context here to further describe what is going on with this thread (IMO). The content of the post you shared was really interesting as it claimed several things regarding the relationship between Athearn and Horizon Hobby...which is why I used the shilling term too...maybe I should say "anti-shilling"? Athearn is just as frustrated with delays and production issues; because they are the widget makers. Without product...no cash for future widgets. Well my original post simply asked what was going on over there and agreed with some of the copy/pasted talking points from another forum. Obviously, Athearn wants to get product out. I just think they could do a better job at communicating new ETAs and why things are delayed. If they would have done so, I think they would have less cancellations on their hands. Several other companies do this. If they honestly don't know what is coming when, at least come out and say that or say the next item is ---- and we're hoping it arrives sometime between xx/24 and xx/25 or some other approximate date. Instead they are saying nothing. It's complete silence on ETAs and it leaves everyone wondering. My hobby shop has had lots of Athearn cancellations because of this long delay problem. We're not talking months, we're talking years in several cases. I'm not saying other companies don't do the same delays but I think they could do a better job with such a large company structure at Horizon to communicate what is going on. I think there is more shilling for Athearn in this thread than against it. Shilling is commonly seen as making excuses and acting like the company can do no wrong. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Nov 5, 2024 13:22:16 GMT -8
Regardless...I think you get the gist of what I am saying...There is no reason to come onto a forum and complain about delays...with all of the manufacturing being done in China, IMO. I am using the word "shill" in a context here to further describe what is going on with this thread (IMO). The content of the post you shared was really interesting as it claimed several things regarding the relationship between Athearn and Horizon Hobby...which is why I used the shilling term too...maybe I should say "anti-shilling"? Athearn is just as frustrated with delays and production issues; because they are the widget makers. Without product...no cash for future widgets. Well my original post simply asked what was going on over there and agreed with some of the copy/pasted talking points from another forum. Obviously, Athearn wants to get product out. I just think they could do a better job at communicating new ETAs and why things are delayed. If they would have done so, I think they would have less cancellations on their hands. Several other companies do this. If they honestly don't know what is coming when, at least come out and say that or say the next item is ---- and we're hoping it arrives sometime between xx/24 and xx/25 or some other approximate date. Instead they are saying nothing. It's complete silence on ETAs and it leaves everyone wondering. My hobby shop has had lots of Athearn cancellations because of this long delay problem. We're not talking months, we're talking years in several cases. I'm not saying other companies don't do the same delays but I think they could do a better job with such a large company structure at Horizon to communicate what is going on. I think there is more shilling for Athearn in this thread than against it. Shilling is commonly seen as making excuses and acting like the company can do no wrong. I'll repost the same piece from their website: |
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thmy
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by thmy on Nov 5, 2024 15:31:00 GMT -8
Well my original post simply asked what was going on over there and agreed with some of the copy/pasted talking points from another forum. Obviously, Athearn wants to get product out. I just think they could do a better job at communicating new ETAs and why things are delayed. If they would have done so, I think they would have less cancellations on their hands. Several other companies do this. If they honestly don't know what is coming when, at least come out and say that or say the next item is ---- and we're hoping it arrives sometime between xx/24 and xx/25 or some other approximate date. Instead they are saying nothing. It's complete silence on ETAs and it leaves everyone wondering. My hobby shop has had lots of Athearn cancellations because of this long delay problem. We're not talking months, we're talking years in several cases. I'm not saying other companies don't do the same delays but I think they could do a better job with such a large company structure at Horizon to communicate what is going on. I think there is more shilling for Athearn in this thread than against it. Shilling is commonly seen as making excuses and acting like the company can do no wrong. I'll repost the same piece from their website: That's been on their website for the last 9 months. One tires of "checking back often" |
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Post by tony on Nov 6, 2024 13:19:46 GMT -8
I've been waiting for the arrival of motors since June and the arrive date keeps moveing month after month.
Does Horizon own their own factory in China or using a contractor? If contractor, you lose control over production schedules - complete production if another customer gets in front of your projects and your stuff keeps getting pushed back and back into the queue.
Getting very late now because next year we might see TARIFFS - TARIFFS - TARIFFS. This time, it's likely to include the Toys & Hobbies category. That $312.98 sound locomotive will become $650.00 or more. Enjoy Folks!
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thmy
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by thmy on Nov 9, 2024 7:16:51 GMT -8
I've been waiting for the arrival of motors since June and the arrive date keeps moveing month after month. Does Horizon own their own factory in China or using a contractor? If contractor, you lose control over production schedules - complete production if another customer gets in front of your projects and your stuff keeps getting pushed back and back into the queue. Getting very late now because next year we might see TARIFFS - TARIFFS - TARIFFS. This time, it's likely to include the Toys & Hobbies category. That $312.98 sound locomotive will become $650.00 or more. Enjoy Folks! The news already said tariffs will raise goods maybe 10-20% so more like $350 for what is now $312. I don't know if Horizon owns the factory or not. I think they share with 1 or 2 other manufactuers. |
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Post by spsf on Nov 11, 2024 8:59:35 GMT -8
I'm especially vexed at the comments about the employees not caring. Some of the other comments are deserved, but that one isn't.
Everyone is doing the best the can do, within the confines of the business and their job expectations / requirements.
The employees doing the day-to-day work have little to no control over the website, delivery dates, items in stock, pricing, etc.
Prices are in line with competitors. Artificially lowering the MSRP would be harmful to dealers. Most dealers offer discounts- it's up to them to determine how much. Don't pay MSRP.
Other companies seem to be releasing more new products. To be sure, they have different business models, workflow, resources, even goals.
Baseless claims about sales numbers under different regimes. I could go on.
You won't see a reply on TO because I'm not a paid member, but boy did I want to.
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Post by typhoon on Nov 11, 2024 9:54:18 GMT -8
Getting very late now because next year we might see TARIFFS - TARIFFS - TARIFFS. This time, it's likely to include the Toys & Hobbies category. That $312.98 sound locomotive will become $650.00 or more. Enjoy Folks! The price will not more than double. Turn off The View and take a deep breath. |
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Post by csxt8400 on Nov 11, 2024 11:04:20 GMT -8
I'm especially vexed at the comments about the employees not caring. Some of the other comments are deserved, but that one isn't. Everyone is doing the best the can do, within the confines of the business and their job expectations / requirements. The employees doing the day-to-day work have little to no control over the website, delivery dates, items in stock, pricing, etc. Prices are in line with competitors. Artificially lowering the MSRP would be harmful to dealers. Most dealers offer discounts- it's up to them to determine how much. Don't pay MSRP. Other companies seem to be releasing more new products. To be sure, they have different business models, workflow, resources, even goals. Baseless claims about sales numbers under different regimes. I could go on. You won't see a reply on TO because I'm not a paid member, but boy did I want to. Janek, can you take some time and reply to my email I sent last week? |
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Post by sknorcal on Nov 11, 2024 12:18:09 GMT -8
You are absolutely correct Janek; the day-to-day employees at Athearn should not be blamed for the systemic problems that have plagued Athearn for years. It is clear that everyone is doing their best, as you state, "within the confines of the business and their job expectations / requirements."
Athearn Brand Management, and Horizon, are clearly to blame for all of the problems. If Brand Management cared about fixing the website, the website would be fixed. If Brand Management cared about quality or delivery, it would do something about it. If Athearn Brand Management really wanted to fix things, it would give Athearn the tools, resources, budget and support that it needs, and empower the day-to-day employees to do their best--not just their best within the "confines of the business."
It is clear that Athearn has a different business model than other model railroad manufacturers. Athearn is a little fish in a big corporate pond. I am sure that Athearn is subject to all of the revenue and profitability expectations of all of Horizon's other brands. My fear is that Horizon is slowly squeezing the life out of Athearn. One only needs to look to Floquil and Model Masters to see what can happen to little fish in big corporate ponds.
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Post by alexandrianick on Nov 11, 2024 19:27:50 GMT -8
Athearn and Model Master are hardly comparable. Athearn is a major component in a relatively small company. Model Master was a major product line in an afterthought of a brand in an absolute colossus of a company. If you told me a year's worth of Model Master sales made RPM a day worth of DAP or Rusteloum does, I'd believe you. Killing it was like clipping a toenail. Horizon killing Athearn would be more like...losing something you'd notice.
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Post by prr 4467 on Nov 13, 2024 10:00:43 GMT -8
I reiterate that most of the Athearn products I've ever bought were fantastic.
I do fear that Horizon is to some extent allowing Athearn to wither on the vine, possibly to a slow and painful death or at least decline.
The recent product improvements do not quite seem to be enough to keep up with the other guys.
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