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Post by Paul Cutler III on May 16, 2012 12:40:44 GMT -8
Rick,
You are way off base here. "Crap" is stuff that doesn't work, like MRC sound decoders. Or it's stuff like the Bachmann toy train sets. Sure, not everything Athearn RTR is 100% correct (and some of it stretches the realm of reality to the breaking point), but to dismiss the entire Athearn RTR line as "crap" is just as unrealistic as the twin John Deere tractors on the gun flatcar. IOW, some of the Athearn RTR line is quite good.
For example, what about the RTR RS-3? It's simply the most accurate plastic RS-3 on the market today. Ok, it doesn't run as nice as the Atlas, but it is a more accurate model with much more road-specific detail. And at a cheaper price to boot.
riogrande,
Even the GP40-2's has been improved, even if they aren't DCC Ready. The later runs, at least, have the "hex" drive w/ dogbones and N/S wheels, plus the plastic handrails.
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Post by riogrande on May 16, 2012 13:55:18 GMT -8
riogrande, Even the GP40-2's has been improved, even if they aren't DCC Ready. The later runs, at least, have the "hex" drive w/ dogbones and N/S wheels, plus the plastic handrails. Agree'd. And I have a couple of the RTR GP40-2's painted for D&RGW, they are nice looking loco's, although they will take more work to get them up to snuff: plow, gyra light, decoder and a few other details. I do wish Athearn would have isolated the motor and added the DCC plug, like they did the SD's. They aren't bad, and the basic shell is pretty good looking vs some of the older BB stuff that has been converted to RTR. One of my favorite items Athearn has taken on is the old A-line Fruehauf trailers - this has been a real boon to TOFC modelers of my time period, so I have been working on collecting at least one of most of the 40 and 45' trailer sets that have been offered. AFAIK, they are one of the most accurate HO TOFC trailers on the market. And this is why I am looking forward to Athearn getting the RTR line back online, since there are a number of TOFC trailers I would like to see run, for example: 45' - Preferred 102, Preferred 45 40' smooth side - white with BN herald, Preferred Pool, white streamlined AT&SF, white B&M, etc. I'm sure I'm forgetting some but her's hoping Athearn will get those going again. In the mean time, I am treasure hunting the trailers I missed out on when they were first offered. Train shows etc, I am slowly finding most of them. |
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Post by riggelweg on May 16, 2012 15:58:39 GMT -8
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Post by riggelweg on May 16, 2012 16:01:52 GMT -8
Yes, that's what I want! Excellent news indeed. Now, when is Athearn going to announce the Big Blows?!? ;D Now I would go for that announcement!!! Is the the type you are asking for? This one is O scale. Larry  BTW, that is a beauty. |
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Post by Chad on May 16, 2012 17:41:28 GMT -8
I really do not understand people bashing the Athearn RTR line. They are good looking, no not exact but you don't want to pay $300.00 right? All of my RTR run fine and I think the latest ones are getting better and better. I just wish they would make more of the SP tunnels. People complain because high end models cost too much, people complain because models at a low price point are not perfect. Please decide which you want cause you will not get both.  |
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Post by calzephyr on May 16, 2012 17:42:12 GMT -8
Thanks for the Athearn posted information. I don't seem to get that on my email. Maybe some day, they will do the 8500HP turbine. I know Brian has the drawings since they have produced brass ones and he was at one time taking reserations for the T55 version or whatever the final name was before the Ace and Gevo molds were sold to Athearn. It will not be cheap since a three unit model would be at least one half more in cost than the Standare Turbine or the Veranda model they already made. The two powered units and the new tender would be expensive, but worth the money to get the model. Larry |
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Post by riogrande on May 16, 2012 17:59:58 GMT -8
I really do not understand people bashing the Athearn RTR line. They are good looking, no not exact but you don't want to pay $300.00 right? All of my RTR run fine and I think the latest ones are getting better and better. I just wish they would make more of the SP tunnels. People complain because high end models cost too much, people complain because models at a low price point are not perfect. Please decide which you want cause you will not get both. I expect they will make more SP tunnels, I could use a few more as well as a few more SP SD45's. I think the people who bash RTR are probably people for whom it is easy to bash them because they don't need the models they make, due to era or RR type. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 18:21:59 GMT -8
I really do not understand people bashing the Athearn RTR line. They are good looking, no not exact but you don't want to pay $300.00 right? All of my RTR run fine and I think the latest ones are getting better and better. I just wish they would make more of the SP tunnels. People complain because high end models cost too much, people complain because models at a low price point are not perfect. Please decide which you want cause you will not get both. I expect they will make more SP tunnels, I could use a few more as well as a few more SP SD45's. I think the people who bash RTR are probably people for whom it is easy to bash them because they don't need the models they make, due to era or RR type. I don't think anybody can deny that Athearn DOES NEED to step it up on the RTR line motor. Too much hit and many times miss on the "Forest Gump" motor. Certain models in the RTR line seem to have more motor problems than others. The RS3 has a horrible track record for motor issues. I've personally found the GP35 to be all over the map. Some are good and others just go back to Athearn. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2012 18:39:05 GMT -8
I think they should just replace it with the Mashima or the Roco motors...period. The Blue box motor...revamped or not...needs to go the way of the Blue Box.
That being said...I only buy Athearn Genesis models, personally.
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Post by riogrande on May 16, 2012 18:42:52 GMT -8
While I'm greatful Athaern has kept their RTR line of diesels cost down, I wish they would offer a better quality motor. I have seen a lot of people say their SD45's and tunnel motors run smoothly, so I'm hoping mine will be like that although I don't have a layout to run mine on right now.
I can't say I only buy Genesis models because some of the key diesels I need, signature diesels, are tunnel motors and I have to say, in the looks department, they look every bit as good as a Genesis quality body!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 4:33:46 GMT -8
since they won't produce undecs Rick J I wouldn't be so fast to malign Athearn for NOT producing undecorated units. Athearn has usually produced undecorated units in the first production run of a model. There have even been times that they have done two runs of undecorated units as in the case of the SD40-2's. But maybe Athearn ISN'T off base on their stance that undecorated units don't sell, and more like spot on. Last year, Walthers announced a run of Proto SD7's and SD9's including undecorated. They offered both the 7 and the 9 undec's in standard DC and DCC with sound. Walthers ended up cancelling all the undecorated SD9's in both standard DC and sound and cancelled the sound SD7. Why? Lack of reservations is what Walthers told my LHS, WHO had reserved undecorated models and now lost the sale! So maybe there is some fire behind all that smoke about the sales of undecorated models. I don't like it, but I also realize that the number of people super detailing and painting is decreasing. |
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Post by calzephyr on May 17, 2012 5:35:30 GMT -8
since they won't produce undecs Rick J I wouldn't be so fast to malign Athearn for NOT producing undecorated units. Athearn has usually produced undecorated units in the first production run of a model. There have even been times that they have done two runs of undecorated units as in the case of the SD40-2's. But maybe Athearn ISN'T off base on their stance that undecorated units don't sell, and more like spot on. Last year, Walthers announced a run of Proto SD7's and SD9's including undecorated. They offered both the 7 and the 9 undec's in standard DC and DCC with sound. Walthers ended up cancelling all the undecorated SD9's in both standard DC and sound and cancelled the sound SD7. Why? Lack of reservations is what Walthers told my LHS, WHO had reserved undecorated models and now lost the sale! So maybe there is some fire behind all that smoke about the sales of undecorated models. I don't like it, but I also realize that the number of people super detailing and painting is decreasing. I believe you are right about the people not super detailing in great numbers any longer and most now prefer to purchase models that are painted. Lately, I have been looking for detail parts that are no longer available probably due to the same reason, they are not in demand any longer. The parts line at Overland being cancelled certainly made getting super detailing parts much harder at least for me. Undecorated shells and models are hard to sell in volume. When BLI / PCM imported the F series several years ago, I purchased a bunch of those undecorated units with sound for blow out prices after they were in stock for months. Larry |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on May 17, 2012 7:19:38 GMT -8
Jim,
Or, you know, you could fix the Athearn motor?
Let's put it this way, the last run of Atlas RS-3's was $125 and the last run of Athearn RS-3's was $100 (and with far more detail parts applied). The cost of a new motor would increase the end cost by at least $30, maybe more.
Meanwhile, Athearn motors can actually be tuned. One can reduce spring pressure on the brushes and re-align the motor ends to increase performance, or even apply 2-26 electrical lubricant on the brushes. With everyone else, there is nothing one can do about a bad motor other than to return it.
One odd thought: Athearn may be the only model railroad manufacturer that still makes their own motors.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2012 7:38:46 GMT -8
Meanwhile, Athearn motors can actually be tuned. One can reduce spring pressure on the brushes and re-align the motor ends to increase performance, or even apply 2-26 electrical lubricant on the brushes. Paul, Lets be realistic. In this day and age in model railroading the majority of people EXPECT a model to go from box to layout. Tuning a motor?  This same majority COMPLAIN about having to do ANYTHING to model. I believe that few also feel they have the ability to do motor tuning. Look at the blank posts on this subject on the old Atlas forum. Someone would TRY to walk a person through the tune up procedure and you'd swear they were trying to teach brain surgery. I'm going to call horse hockey on the increase of $30 on price for a better motor in the RTR line. The SW1000 and SW1500 do NOT use the "Forest Gump" motor, instead using a Buehler AND the price of the SW1000/1500 is the same or a little lower than the RTR line using the "Forest Gump". The SW1000/1500 is also one of THE best RTR units Athearn produces. It is Genesis quality in detail and drive train at RTR prices. Athearn CAN use a better motor and IT isn't going to increase the price much if any. Look at the price of $149.98 for the next run of RTR GP35's. The GP35 is warmed up RPP with some detail. $150 for THAT model and I MAY HAVE TO DO A TUNE-UP? ? There is something wrong with that picture. |
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 7:49:09 GMT -8
Athearn has usually produced undecorated units in the first production run of a model. There have even been times that they have done two runs of undecorated units as in the case of the SD40-2's. But maybe Athearn ISN'T off base on their stance that undecorated units don't sell, and more like spot on. Athearn like everybody is still struggling with the transition from the conventional retail chain feedback to the direct model. Not necessarily direct sales but direct feedback. In the old days, if we didn't hear about it in the magazines or from our dealer, we didn't hear about it unless we had a specific inside connection. Now we usually hear about it instantly as soon as the first insider hears it, often way ahead of dealers. And I think we assume the reverse is true - if someone posts a problem with a product to a forum, whether it's an accuracy or paint/lettering issue or an availability issue (i.e. my dealer ordered me 4 undecs and got none), we assume the manufacturer knows about it. The manufacturer it's true doesn't monitor every forum, nor do they have helpful moles on every forum feeding them when their ears are burning, nor do they even have the Mad Faxer's helpful out-of-context bits. But sometimes they don't even do well monitoring their own official channels. Before I take this down the alley, I want to talk about the undec thing. I've had one really big dealer tell me he has *never* gotten stiffed on undecs from Athearn. Well, no doodoo. If I were Athearn/Horizon I wouldn't stiff one of the 5 largest retailers in the country either. My SLHS has gotten stiffed, and I have no reason to doubt their word. Everything I've ordered from them, I've gotten - so they must pay their bills and honor their commitments. I've gotten everything *except* some undec Athearns which came and went, and the SLHS got nothing. That means either Athearn underproduced the undecs, or - if I were to bet a donut - some top 5 retailer wanted 10 more at the last minute and took priority over the little guy. Just a theory. Now, down the alley. And where I take the blame for the Genesis GP9 problems in the first run. Oh, I don't take it alone... and with qualification. And I can't promise it will never happen again. But... I'll show you where I failed. When the first shots were shown, they had such obvious Front Range heredity that the primary issue became did they, or didn't they, acquire the FRP tooling. The focus on the Atlas forum and others was the comparison between the two, rather than the specific dimensional errors. The comments were "the Genesis has the same errors as the Front Range, therefore it's the Front Range" vs. Athearn's statement that "it's all new tooling". While that battle raged, and Athearn produced their increasing evidence on facebook and all, it was overlooked that actually BOTH statements were true. Athearn did purchase the Front Range tooling, they DID make new tooling, and in the process duplicated some dimensional errors from the FRP. Where I'm at fault is that I assumed that because of the Atlas and Facebook battles, that Athearn wasn't going to budge and that they already knew the problems and were just covering or in denial, and that a direct contact from me as part of the opposition would be unwelcome at best, and ineffective at least. So I didn't do it. Now in my own defense, I've certainly had enough bad experience trying to contact a manufacturer about a problem or potential problem. And I also lacked specifics as to WHO to contact at Athearn, not knowing exactly who was spearheading the project. Because heads had already rolled, it seemed like opposing Athearn on this issue was futile. I'm not alone in culpability here. I could probably rattle off a dozen names of people FAR more knowledgeable than me who were in on the discussions, knew of the problems and in fact probably could describe the problems in much greater precision than I could, who didn't contact Athearn directly either. At least one of them was so adamant about the door issue (i.e. the new Athearn correctly rendered them as flush rather than protruding) that they never even looked at the radiators. And so on. A further lesson in this is that when you take a manufacturer to task over dimensional errors, it MUST be in reference to the prototype. Even if you're comparing to a model known to be infallible... or known to have specific errors, the manufacturer can easily dismiss that and the law is on their side there... manufacturers at least *shouldn't* base their models on other models, period. So someone with access to the prototype trumps someone who doesn't, even if the latter's observations are correct. The GP30 Fan Mistake was only corrected by bringing the attention back to the prototype again and again and again, until all involved had to agree that no prototype GP30 ever had the wide fan spacing depicted in virtually every published drawing and in every existing model. It is probably the best example I've ever seen of error propagation via ADD... Assumption & Denial Disease. What I find utterly fascinating is that even since the error was corrected for the production version of the P2K GP30, multiple new GP30 models in other scales and materials have been released that continue the error. Anyway - to step back out of the alley into the light... the issue here is communication. Between those who know, and those who need to know. And how a manufacturer has to be able to separate the signal from the noise. I'm quite certain that around the whole geep controversy all Athearn heard was "Front Range! Front Range!!" And, they defended against that chant by proving it wasn't... by calling attention to the differences, they missed the genetic similarities, but more importantly, didn't check them against the *prototype* until it was too late to save the first run. There were no winners in the deal... everybody came out looking bad, including me. Actually the winners are whoever got paid actual money for the old Front Range tooling, I'm sure that person is still smiling. I never really finished this conversation with Mike Hopkin as to the how and all that, I mean the part about how the waters were muddied by the Front Range argument to the point that the prototype didn't enter into it. Suffice it to say that once the prototype DID enter into it, the problem was obvious... and got corrected. The follow on good news is that the GP38-2 project seems to suffer from none of the genetic afflictions the GP7/9 had. Like Exactrail's foobie drop-center flat car, maybe Athearn has gotten it out of their system for now. And those who do have been hoarding for a long time out of necessity and can opt out of expensive new runs that provide little if any improvement over what they already have on hand. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 7:58:09 GMT -8
Or, you know, you could fix the Athearn motor? Or I could ebay them to someone with a lathe and a puller and time to actually put them in spec as the manufacturer should do, and replace them with motors which are actually consistent performers. One can? Yes, one can... are you one of the ones? Have you actually done this? Toothpaste is supposed to fix the "gear noise" too. I *have* tried that one, and it's a waste of time - particularly because the noise is in the motor not the gears... LOL. But I didn't get any cavities. Their motors are made in China like everybody else's. It's the same design as the old bluebox motor made in Compton, but it's not made by Athearn. Amazingly the Chinese have managed to duplicate the inconsistency to a tee... which I guess means that it's built into the design. Andy |
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Post by Donnell Wells on May 17, 2012 8:48:15 GMT -8
Hi Jim,
The motor in the RTR SW1000/1500 is a Mashima. Athearn dropped Buehler sometime after the Genesis Fs were introduced. And as for doing away with the BB motor, I've suggested this to Athearn on a number of occasions, as I am sure others have.
Honestly, the cost of RTR locos shouldn't increase at all. For one, if they discontinued the BB motor, they wouldn't have to pay for the labor and materials to built BB motors. Plus, the unit cost of the better can motors goes down as the quantity purchased goes up. For example, I called Buehler last year to see about purchasing the "original" Genesis motor, and the cost per unit for 1 to 10 motors was very high, over $50-$60. However, a quantity of 10 to 99 motors went for $8 per motor. Over 100 motors was even less.
Motors are cheap! Even the good "can" types! Why do we pay $30 or more for them? I don't know... BUT, I picked up 15 Igarashi can motors (the same ones found in BLI locomotives) for $75, and spent another $150 having 30 custom brass hex flywheels made to fit those motors. So, now I have 15 can motors equipped with flywheels that have hex openings which will accept Athearn or Kato hex drive shafts. Total cost: $15 each!
Donnell
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Post by Donnell Wells on May 17, 2012 9:10:32 GMT -8
Or, you know, you could fix the Athearn motor? Or I could ebay them to someone with a lathe and a puller and time to actually put them in spec as the manufacturer should do, and replace them with motors which are actually consistent performers. One can? Yes, one can... are you one of the ones? Have you actually done this? Toothpaste is supposed to fix the "gear noise" too. I *have* tried that one, and it's a waste of time - particularly because the noise is in the motor not the gears... LOL. But I didn't get any cavities. Their motors are made in China like everybody else's. It's the same design as the old bluebox motor made in Compton, but it's not made by Athearn. Amazingly the Chinese have managed to duplicate the inconsistency to a tee... which I guess means that it's built into the design. Andy
Count me among those that have tuned Athearn BB motors succesfully!  It really is easy to do. However, the question on many modelers' minds is, "Why should I have to do it at all?"
Personally, I don't mind tuning them, but as was pointed out already, some don't have the inclination, or the skill to do it...
Donnell
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 10:16:28 GMT -8
Motors are cheap! Even the good "can" types! Why do we pay $30 or more for them?
So I'll know what I'm getting. One of the problems with compatibility is that manufacturers seem to source their motors based on a) is it a 12v or 14v dc motor and b) will it fit under the hood and c) who is the lowest bidder. There are a huge number of motors which could fit that physical description; doesn't mean they will make adequate HO locomotive motors. I pay $30+ for Kato motors because I know that its torque and RPM range at a given voltage will be *the same as* my other Kato motors. And that they will perform similarly with each other under varying load conditions. I will do that all day rather than futz around with speed tables and oddball gear ratios and razor blades and polishing commutators and trimming brushes or trying to find that elusive sweet spot in between the twisting delrin ends of a bluebox motor. If time is money I've wasted thousands on crappy motors, and I don't want to waste a dime more - although it's bound to happen. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 10:24:56 GMT -8
Personally, I don't mind tuning them, but as was pointed out already, some don't have the inclination, or the skill to do it... [/font][/quote] There was a guy on rec.models.railroad - I think his name was Keir Jones - who claimed extraordinary performance out of his BB motors. He summarized his procedure, which basically was "blueprinting" the motor. It was the equivalent of taking apart a small block Chevy, boring and balancing the crank and piston/rod assemblies, and CCing and porting the heads. I believed him when he said they ran better than a Kato when he was done with them, because he was putting the precision and specifications in place that were left out at the factory. No doubt in my mind. Athearn now has their flywheels impacted onto the shafts such that you need a puller to get them off, which is necessary for any motor tuning beyond a very rudimentary commutator polish or brush spring trimming. Having gotten little or no improvement from the latter - and sometimes it made things worse - I let go the notion of tweak tuning. I have an NWSL puller, but the fork is too thick to get between the casing and the flywheel on most current Athearn motors. I used it to pull the FW off some Atlas motors, but only after cutting the mount cradle off of it. They simply don't make these things to be worked on. All that said, I will probably be putting another batch of Athearn BB motors on ebay soon. I usually sell them in 4-packs, so I will try and finish a couple of B-fleet repowering jobs. I have three more SD45s at least to do - one EL, an EL bicentennial, and a D&H. Hope to see you among the bidders ;D Andy |
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Post by riogrande on May 17, 2012 10:53:55 GMT -8
Lets be realistic. In this day and age in model railroading the majority of people EXPECT a model to go from box to layout. Tuning a motor? This same majority COMPLAIN about having to do ANYTHING to model. I believe that few also feel they have the ability to do motor tuning. Look at the blank posts on this subject on the old Atlas forum. Someone would TRY to walk a person through the tune up procedure and you'd swear they were trying to teach brain surgery. I'm going to call horse hockey on the increase of $30 on price for a better motor in the RTR line. The SW1000 and SW1500 do NOT use the "Forest Gump" motor, instead using a Buehler AND the price of the SW1000/1500 is the same or a little lower than the RTR line using the "Forest Gump". The SW1000/1500 is also one of THE best RTR units Athearn produces. It is Genesis quality in detail and drive train at RTR prices. Athearn CAN use a better motor and IT isn't going to increase the price much if any. Look at the price of $149.98 for the next run of RTR GP35's. The GP35 is warmed up RPP with some detail. $150 for THAT model and I MAY HAVE TO DO A TUNE-UP? ? There is something wrong with that picture. I'll have to agree here. Basic principle, a big manufacturer like Athearn/Horizon ought to be able to put out an HO diesel which runs well, right out of the box. End of story, or manufacturer should replace unit or chassis with one that will run well. To be fair to Athearn, I expect they do do this. As for tuning, that is up to the individual, some are up to it many not. That doesn't mean that some men don't have as much hair on their chest, again, rebuilding a lawn mower engine or an automobile engine just isn't in many people vocabulary. Fair enough, that should be the end of it. I have, btw, tried doing some things to an Athearn bb motor some years back that I read in a magazine which was suppose to improve and quiet the motor, like polish the commutator and spray on some TV tuner cleaner etc. I don't think I removed the whole thing and chuck it in a drill to polish. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on May 17, 2012 10:56:36 GMT -8
Hey Andy,
Will those come with flywheels and motor mounts? Also, what are you doing with the RTR circuit boards?
Donnell
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 11:14:42 GMT -8
I'll have to agree here. Basic principle, a big manufacturer like Athearn/Horizon ought to be able to put out an HO diesel which runs well, right out of the box. End of story, or manufacturer should replace unit or chassis with one that will run well. To be fair to Athearn, I expect they do do this. I'm sure Athearn will replace a defective chassis if it's returned. However, the mean quality of the BB chassis is so low that odds are the replacement won't be any better, and could actually be worse. On the extremely rare chance that I ever got a defective Kato drive, I am nearly 100% certain that if I returned it, the replacement would be good. With Athearn being 50-50 to start, the replacement odds are no better and not even worth the postage. TBQH, I should have returned the Genesis PRR FP7s. The motors in them were total junk. I did fry the *replacements* with Hoosier NCE Feedback Syndrome, but the original motors ran like crap on DC before I ever plugged a decoder in. I've rebuilt two Chevy motors pretty much from scratch - a 396 and a 327. This was with some supervision and jobbing out the machine shop work, but I read up on everything and there really weren't a lot of surprises. I think the biggest surprise was that my 1965 396 block didn't have the cam oiling groove, and neither did my Crane performance cam. But my book already said to watch out for this. Sent the cam out to the machine shop to be grooved, and bought a set of grooved bearings and we're in business. I've also taken part in some other motor buildings... and in the not too distant future I'll be taking apart and hopefully rebuilding a very tired 390 Ford Y-block, to pretty much stock specs for my Galaxie. I'd rather do that than screw around with Athearn's junk BB motors for even five minutes. I'm rebuilding the car motors because they are worn out, or because I wanted to make a high-performance motor... not because they came from the factory as brand new junk. Ford Y-block, Chevy small block Chevy big block, Chrysler big block... ok. Chevy Vega? Don't think so. Andy |
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 11:18:40 GMT -8
Will those come with flywheels and motor mounts? Also, what are you doing with the RTR circuit boards?
Yes, although I'm not sure I kept the mounts for all of them. They are probably kicking around, I never throw anything away that's still in one piece. I probably do have some of the RTR circuit boards with the 8 and 9-pin connectors too. Andy |
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Post by riogrande on May 17, 2012 11:23:55 GMT -8
I'm sure Athearn will replace a defective chassis if it's returned. However, the mean quality of the BB chassis is so low that odds are the replacement won't be any better, and could actually be worse. If Athearn sent back another dud, then there is something wrong with their customer support process. Those folks should drop the chassis on a test track for a few minutes and test it before dropping it in the mail back to the customer. This saves Athearn and the customer more time, money and consternation. If Athearn tech's can't make a simple quick test of performance, the system is broken. |
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 11:29:38 GMT -8
If Athearn sent back another dud, then there is something wrong with their customer support process. Those folks should drop the chassis on a test track for a few minutes and test it before dropping it in the mail back to the customer. This saves Athearn and the customer more time, money and consternation. If Athearn tech's can't make a simple quick test of performance, the system is broken. You're missing the point. They already do this. What we consider a 'dud' has already passed their QC. That's the whole problem. And of course that people accept these growlers in turn. I guess I'm part of the problem, in that I replace the motors and get on with it, instead of returning the same loco 4-5 times until I get a good one. This was less of an issue in the old bluebox days when a GP9 drive was a GP9 drive. There were no road-specific details even on the body much less the chassis, so odds were if I wanted an Athearn geep, my LHS would have 10, 12 of them in stock. I'd just test run them all, pick the best drive, and stick the body I wanted on it. Today I can't really do this - all I can do is test run at the LHS and accept or reject, and if it's a BB I don't even bother to test run it anymore because I know what I'm going to have to do. In the case of my Genesis WP FP7s, dealer gave me the option to reject - but they passed the test run and I bought them. If they had been as bad as the PRR FPs, they would have been UPS ground back to Horizon. Andy |
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Post by carrman on May 17, 2012 11:35:10 GMT -8
I have a couple dozen of the hex shaft BB motors here........
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Post by riogrande on May 17, 2012 11:38:25 GMT -8
You're missing the point. They already do this. What we consider a 'dud' has already passed their QC. That's the whole problem. And of course that people accept these growlers in turn. I guess I'm part of the problem, in that I replace the motors and get on with it, instead of returning the same loco 4-5 times until I get a good one. This was less of an issue in the old bluebox days when a GP9 drive was a GP9 drive. There were no road-specific details even on the body much less the chassis, so odds were if I wanted an Athearn geep, my LHS would have 10, 12 of them in stock. I'd just test run them all, pick the best drive, and stick the body I wanted on it. Today I can't really do this - all I can do is test run at the LHS and accept or reject, and if it's a BB I don't even bother to test run it anymore because I know what I'm going to have to do. In the case of my Genesis WP FP7s, dealer gave me the option to reject - but they passed the test run and I bought them. If they had been as bad as the PRR FPs, they would have been UPS ground back to Horizon. Andy No, I'm not... but perhaps I should have been more specific. Athearns customer service process is broken if they don't have the means to provide the customer an adequate replacement. Shall I say, they should drop it on a test track and make sure the replacement chassis is not a damn coffee grinder before sending it back? This isn't rocket science Andy, and we should have to play games with words. I've heard lots of people report many of their RTR SD45's etc run smooth and nice, even some comparing them to KATO's. If the example the customer got is noisy and rough, Athearn should replace it with one that runs well. From what I gather, even Bachmann can manage to sell loco's that run reasonbly smooth. In our day of supposed advanced technology, it's a sad commentary if a model train company can't put out motors that run well. But this particular discussion - been down this road umpteen times on forums so I'll drop out of the Athearn motor talk now - it isn't resolvable here and now. |
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Post by el3637 on May 17, 2012 12:14:53 GMT -8
Shall I say, they should drop it on a test track and make sure the replacement chassis is not a damn coffee grinder before sending it back? This isn't rocket science Andy, and we should have to play games with words. My point is, your coffee grinder might be Joe Blow's smoothie. Obviously a certain percentage of us find the de facto Athearn chassis unacceptable, while obviously a much larger percentage accept it, praise it even. Otherwise Athearn would be dealing with a 50% return rate, and we know that's not the case. They don't do anything about the crappy motors because people are still buying them, in spite of the RPP RTR with BB motors now selling for more than what Genesis F units sold for just a few years ago. I don't know if any of you guys saw this but over on another forum that some Atlas-expats frequent, someone was asking how to put an Athearn motor in a Kato. Seriously. I don't think it was a joke. Apparently the kind of marathon running they do has worn out some Kato motors. I've found that rather than breaking in the growlers, even the fairly smooth Athearn BB RTRs start growling after some hours of running. I haven't tried to figure out why, I just bench them until its their turn to get Kato-ized. So I can't imagine what heavy continuous running would do to them. I offered to swap the guy new or near- new Athearn BB motors for his near-new Kato motors (not ragged out ones). So far haven't heard back. It's all relative, and as long Athearn's "acceptable" is my "junkbox fodder", I will keep replacing motors, and as long Athearn's "acceptable" is 90% acceptable by the public, nothing's going to change. Far more people bitch than return. I don't return because I know it's a waste of postage. I bitch as a matter of principle even if I do have a solution - at my own effort and expense. Andy |
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Post by riogrande on May 17, 2012 16:39:16 GMT -8
My point is, your coffee grinder might be Joe Blow's smoothie. Again, not rocket science. Maybe they need to have a staff meeting at the cust service dept, put coffee in a grinder and say "if it sounds like this, it's rejected", then find a decent running loco and say, it is at least this good, send it out. There, problem solved. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. |
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