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Post by atsfan on Jul 20, 2013 10:05:52 GMT -8
What is a ghetto cake? Perhaps I don't want to know.......
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jul 20, 2013 10:10:22 GMT -8
I think it could be a deal where the company wants to release photos and make an annoucement of an upcoming model, but not all parts are tooled for it yet so they use what they have (parts etc) available to coble together a test model to rush it for a photo to show the modeling community by a deadline.
Some companies do the opposite and announce a product the same day it is ready for purchase. If it was me, I almost prefer the announce and show a preproduction model to allow feedback to the manufacturer to correct issues identified by the model railroad community. If they choose to correct them. The announce and release the same day doesn't allow for any feedback and possible corrections as the model has already been produced.
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Post by NS4122 on Jul 20, 2013 10:18:12 GMT -8
While I agree that inaccuracies should be pointed out as soon as possible on announced new models, I don’t think that that it should be done in an immature and disrespectful manner. Calling the folks at Athearn “idiots” and "blind as Stevie Wonder", only helps further the stereotype of model RR hobbyists as clueless nerds lacking in social skills.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 20, 2013 11:18:02 GMT -8
I don't see where anyone called anyone an idiot? The Stevie Wonder comment is a Die Hard famous reference.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 11:46:08 GMT -8
I don't see where anyone called anyone an idiot? The Stevie Wonder comment is a Die Hard famous reference. I called Athearn "idiots" for the numerous gaffs on the GN version of the SDP45. I also take full credit for the Stevie Wonder line, because Athearn seems to fully believe the models should have a winterization hatch on the GN version. The prototype NEVER had one until they were long part of BN and near scrapping. There are SO MANY photos of GN era SDP45's, even excellent roof shots in published books from Morning Sun, Four Ways West and others, its mind blowing that they must believe the hatch is prototypical! My gosh, where and how did Athearn get this misinformation, when there is so much even on the web? When there are literally hundreds of photographs of these locomotives in service on the GN in the late 1960's and you add something that ISN'T supposed to be on the model......then the eyes of the "research"(and I use the term loosely) team must not be too good. For all of you that are apologizing for Athearn including the winterization hatch, like its a "pre-production" model etc., on Athearn's website they posted artist's drawings of the up coming SDP45.....guess what the drawing of the GN features....a winterization hatch. Guess what Athearn has listed as included features and details on the GN version of the SDP45 on their Facebook page....a winterization hatch. When I posted on their Facebook page, the GN era SDP45's never had winterization hatches and other concerns. Guess which concern was NOT addressed by Athearn.....the winterization hatch.... In my best impression of the former head of clothier Men's Warehouse.....the GN version of the SDP45 WILL COME WITH a winterzation hatch....."I guarantee it"....... Until they prove me wrong and change their "pre-production" lists of details and maybe even the drawings. I fully expect Athearn to screw up the GN version, which is MY loss.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 20, 2013 12:09:37 GMT -8
so now Who would have thunk it !!! real EL Signature Power !!! its ABOUT TIME ! Spikre
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jul 20, 2013 12:16:58 GMT -8
Australianterrier,
I don't have dog in the fight, but I sent a message to Athearn asking to correct the GN version. If enough modelers do this then maybe Athearn will remove the winterization hatch and fix the other issues with the preproduction model.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 12:31:38 GMT -8
Australianterrier, I don't have dog in the fight, but I sent a message to Athearn asking to correct the GN version. If enough modelers do this then maybe Athearn will remove the winterization hatch and fix the other issues with the preproduction model. I did too and they addressed the snow plow, but the hatch, beacon and some of my other concerns have so far not been commented on either privately or publicly. I've resigned myself to the fact my favorite diesel is going to be a hosed up model. Negative? ?Yes!!!!! For the GP7/9 radiator grille debacle is still fresh in my mind. Athearn shut its ears in the "pre-production" phase and the onslaught of negative publicity ended up biting them square in the butt.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 20, 2013 14:04:21 GMT -8
If Athearn bothches it for real, many people won't be buying them.
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Post by JohnJ on Jul 20, 2013 18:27:41 GMT -8
From Athearn's Facebook page:
Great Northern 1. Snowplow: the early decorated sample we received included the tall snowplow with steam line doors. Unfortunately there was not enough time to obtain the correct EMD low snowplow with steam line door before the show. The factory has already been informed and this will be changed for final production. 2. Winterization hatch: we’re conducting additional research to verify the concerns about whether or not the model should include this feature. Once we confirm which is correct, we will make the proper adjustments if necessary and will post the results on our Facebook page. 3. Beacon with cap: we do not have a beacon with cap in our portfolio. Unfortunately we have to draw a line at some point on how much detail we can include on a model to keep it economically viable.
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Post by shoofly on Jul 21, 2013 1:12:28 GMT -8
Well brass is always an alternative...$1000 a pop vs $200 and a new beacon....no one will buy it with a little work to be done? Dream on!
How hard is it to tweak the winterization hatch and a beacon? Bummer they didn't get it straight first, but still...really?
Apologist nothing, how about a pile of parts you can assemble and paint yourself? DIY get out the P2K SD45 splice two SD45 frames together, and Atlas SDP35 for the steam gen and go to town.
IDK seems like over the top picking to me vs the alternative...not having anything. If an hour of dialing in the unit with a beacon and removing a winterization hatch is unsavory vs getting a brass loco for 3 times more...hey whatever man! This thing is way closer then starting from raw styrene stock and cannon doors! But that's just me.
Chris Palomarez
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 21, 2013 4:23:53 GMT -8
From Athearn's Facebook page: Great Northern 1. Snowplow: the early decorated sample we received included the tall snowplow with steam line doors. Unfortunately there was not enough time to obtain the correct EMD low snowplow with steam line door before the show. The factory has already been informed and this will be changed for final production. 2. Winterization hatch: we’re conducting additional research to verify the concerns about whether or not the model should include this feature. Once we confirm which is correct, we will make the proper adjustments if necessary and will post the results on our Facebook page. 3. Beacon with cap: we do not have a beacon with cap in our portfolio. Unfortunately we have to draw a line at some point on how much detail we can include on a model to keep it economically viable. John, here's a link to a BN SDP45 photo. It obviously does not have a winterization hatch: www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=363828&nseq=7I'll be sending this link over to Athearn on Facebook, as well...
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Post by atsfan on Jul 21, 2013 6:36:04 GMT -8
The beacon seems like an easy fix post purchase.
The winterization hatch? Depends. Is it glued on? Or are there holes in the roof? A question I have is, did the GN Blue unit EVER use a winterization hatch such that it makes sense Athearn has added one?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 7:20:20 GMT -8
Regardless, I wouldn't call Athearn "Idiots" for producing this engine...as Chris (shoofly) stated...it's not difficult to remove the hatch yourself if it offends you that much, IMO. Bottom line, that's one cool looking hood unit that I NEVER thought I would see in High quality plastic...unless Brian Banna, Elizabeth Allen, or maybe Clyde King built them from scratch.
Kudos to Athearn Genesis for another unit that is superb! I'm researching my BN photos from Centralia to Metropolis IL to see if these beasts made into coal service after their passenger lives were over!
Because I can easily dream of a 50 car quad hopper train with BN, GN, and CB&Q ExactRail quads in it...and a couple of BN SDP45's on the point with a U30C lashed up trailing the big EMD's!!!!
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Post by riggelweg on Jul 21, 2013 7:31:50 GMT -8
If Athearn bothches it for real, many people won't be buying them. They should address the problems if you email them. Maybe email a few photos showing the issues. Athearn was pretty responsive to comments on the problems in one of its Reading GP-7 units.
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Post by curtmc on Jul 21, 2013 10:19:01 GMT -8
Athearn is hit or miss at correcting issues... Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.
For example their CSX AutoMax cars were the wrong shade. When alerted they said there would be a correction, then later a corrected run. A decade later we're still waiting for that and wondering how much more the new run will be than the $49 MSRP of the earlier botched run.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 21, 2013 12:20:14 GMT -8
I bet Athearn will be doing the EL Bicentennial one, but will they also do the longer lasting Conrail patched version of it??? Pretty easy to do. EL replaced with CR on noses. Name gone on sides. Small CR on the side. New road numbers #6669.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 21, 2013 12:32:36 GMT -8
I don't think Athearn is so much hit or miss on correcting problems. I think it has a lot to do with announcement timing in relation to where the production is in terms of actual production. Sometimes with the limited lead times on announcement, the tooling may already be complete and it's just the number to be determined. If your anticipated profit would get eaten up by correction costs, that's a hard call. I don't think many here would argue that it's some sort of duty to correct things no matter what the financial costs would be. In the end, the bottomline is what limits the ability of any manufacturer to correct issues.
There's nothing too dangerous about model railroading, but a recent example from another field is instructive. A manufacturer of a composite LPG gas bottle recently was forced to recall a significant portion of its prior production. Nice bottles that off-roaders like me appreciate, because they were see-thru and you could tell exactly how much fuel you have left at any point. Within a few days of the recall, the company simply suspended operations and locked the doors. Now there's a bunch of unhappy people, between its vendors and customers stuck with presumably unsafe tanks and no recourse.
Depending on the issue, the nature of the problem will make also difference in how responsive model manufacturers can be. If it's something that can simply be omitted, like a winterization hatch that's an add-on, then they'll likely be able to make a change. If the offending part is detail in a larger component, them I suspect less chance of that happening. That was the case with the initial GP-9 gaffe, for instance.
Manufacturing any product requires a vast amount of research, coordination and revision. There's room for error and correction. Life ain't perfect, although I can understand Jim's frustration. It's just that the only thing that will correct that is polite pressure repeatedly applied.
I also think that we as hobbiests are still adapting to the shortened feedback loop as are the mfgs. In the past, we waited until things were released before we could really say anything as there was usually very little to go on other than maybe seeing a pilot model at a show. Now we're flooded with info, as well as with the notion of immediate gratification for our concerns that the internet seems to imply also exists in the real world. Well, in the real world, things take time, there is imperfect communication, calculations of number of items to be produced in a run may be mis-estimated, a boat might sink or container be caught in bad weather, etc, etc. It's easy to say, 'It should be that way..." sitting in front of your monitor, but turning around a 12000 mile long behemoth of a supply chain is a bit trickier than coming down hard on something here in the online world.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 13:00:17 GMT -8
Reading postings on Athearn's Facebook page, it seems I'm not the only one beating on Athearn's door about the winterization hatch on the GN version. The natives are getting restless......People are posting links to photos to show proof. I still would love to know, WHO did the research for the GN version at or for Athearn and HOW with hundreds of photos available in books, online, slides, etc. they could have seen a hatch on a GN era prototype. I've owned many GN/BN version SDP45's in brass. ONLY OMI in 1997, got the single exhaust stack steam generator detail correct. The 1997 built models by Ajin/OMI were the most accurate model of a Great Northern SDP45 ever produced, except for the paint. Ajin's take on the sky blue paint scheme was pale stale ale! Athearn's model is on par with OMI, AND with extraordinary paint color accuracy . To Athearn's credit they did get the venting of a lone exhaust stack on the steam generator compartment correct. Every brass model of the GN SDP45 is incorrect in this area, except for the '97 OMI import. Yet some way and somehow....Athearn screws up on a winterization hatch? ? My head is hurting......
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Post by atsfan on Jul 21, 2013 14:21:13 GMT -8
Jim, did "any" GN SDP45 use the winterization hatch, thus to make it accurate *at all* ?
Otherwise.........
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 15:16:48 GMT -8
Jim, did "any" GN SDP45 use the winterization hatch, thus to make it accurate *at all* ? Otherwise......... The GN SDP45's didn't get the winterization hatch until the late 70's, early 80's. By this time they were property of the Burlington Northern for ten years and in Cascade Green and Black for nearly ten years. The SDP45 was the first diesel delivered to GN by a builder, in this case EMD, in the new image Big Sky Blue scheme. The first SDP45's were rolled out with a consist of the Empire Builder made up of cars freshly painted in Sky Blue and posed for pictures along the mainline, mostly near Glacier National Park. The quintessential squeezed from the tube streamliner. GN's president, John Budd, was a firm believer in passenger service as a marketing and good will tool for the railroad. In 1967 there were still doubts among the four "Hill Road's"(GN, NP, CB&Q, SP&S) whether the merger would be a reality or if the four companies would remain "independent"(GN and NP each owned half of the SP&S and NP and GN together owned about 97% of the Q) for the foreseeable future. The GN felt it needed to continue as if the merger may never take place. It also wanted a new bolder look for itself. You will notice the "goat" on the GN herald of the Omaha Orange and Pullman Green era looks a little puny compared to the new "muscular" goat of the Sky Blue scheme. The SDP45's were big brawny second generation passenger units, but they were also very practical. In stead of having a consist of three to four, sometime more, F5's(GN rebuilt their F3's and designated them as "F5's") and 7's, two SDP45's could handle the train. The biggest limitation for the two SDP45's versus the four F's was reduced steam generator capacity(four versus two). The solution especially during the balmy Minnesota, North Dakota, Montana, Idaho and Washington winters was to add a steam generator car. In the mid-1960's GN began converting some F3B's and one F9B into steam generator cars with MU capabilities so they could be sandwiched between locomotives. SDP45's were also practical in the sense that if and when passenger service would come to an end, they could be easily converted and were suited for freight service. As one person said to me about the SDP45 and FP45, "they were basically freight locomotives masquerading as passenger units." The Athearn model represents the GN SDP45 as built. About a year into service GN did modify the SDP45's. The modifications were switching the rotary beacon from the middle of the cab roof to above the headlight, moving the horn from above the headlight to the middle of the cab roof and installing cab sunshades on the engineer's side. They also added re-rail frogs mounted on brackets by the rear truck. Some of the SDP45's did get sunshades on the fireman's side but you need to look at photos, for not all got this treatment. Those were the only noticeable changes GN made the SDP45's from 1967 to March 2, 1970. After the BN merger, the SDP45's had their GN number on the cab painted out and its BN 9800 series number with the initials "BN" underneath applied. The units also had the GN signboard with the GN logo and "Great Northern" removed from the handrails. The units next paint scheme was full Cascade Green and Black while retaining their 9800 series number. The 9800 series number in full green and black was a relatively short lived scheme and the SDP45's settled into the 6590 series where they would remain until they were stricken from the roster. The SDP45's were not very popular on the Burlington Northern. They were some of the first units that went into storage during a downturn in traffic and some of the last units to be put back into service when business picked up. During the late 1970's in an effort to make the SDP45's and the ex-GN SDP40's safer, BN removed the steam generator water fill on the engineer's side, which caused there to be step up or over in the middle of walkway. In the removal, the handrail which was bent to compensate for the step up and over was straightened. BN also plated over the venting on the hood of the steam generator compartment on some, but not all SDP45's and SDP40's. It was in the late 70's to early 80's when the SDP45's received a winterization hatch.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 21, 2013 15:57:09 GMT -8
So then, the GN Blue having the winterization hatch is, wrong. Amazing for people whose full time job is making trains to not know that.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 21, 2013 19:34:45 GMT -8
Has anyone actually bothered to contact Athearn and ask if they will indeed include or leave the winterization hatch off the production models, now that they're bound to have been informed about this mistake via all the internet feedback?
It never ceases to amaze me about all the whining and crying that goes on on this forum - and it's always the same people. Always. Maybe it's time for some to find a new hobby. Athearn releases a beautiful model of an SDP45, a locomotive many wouldn't ever think would be done in RTR plastic, and everybody's crying bloody murder about a separately applied winterization hatch on a preproduction model that Athearn might have applied by mistake, or accidentally overlooked. Let me say that again: "Everybody's crying bloody murder about a separately applied winterization hatch on a preproduction model that Athearn might have applied by mistake, or accidentally overlooked." Last time I checked, the people working at Athearn are not cyborgs or HAL 9000's: they're part of a race of beings called humans, and humans are known to make mistakes every now and then.
It's a part they can easily leave off when told about. The tooling is not wrecked. It's not a half-baked GP7/9 with horribly inaccurate dimensions. It's not a Bachmann SD70 with cast-on grabs. It's not the end of the world. It's a part some guy applied that they shouldn't have, probably rushing to get one done for photos & display, or overlooking when checking photos.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 20:35:24 GMT -8
Has anyone actually bothered to contact Athearn and ask if they will indeed include or leave the winterization hatch off the production models, now that they're bound to have been informed about this mistake via all the internet feedback? I have contacted Athearn directly and through Facebook as have countless other GN modelers. It is a topic of concern if measured by the Facebook responses. Myself and many others have all provided photos and references for Athearn to review. This evening Athearn has responded and said they will make a statement on Monday, whether they are or are not going to install a winterization hatch.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jul 21, 2013 21:11:52 GMT -8
What the hell is a HAL 9000 anyway?! HA! I also understand your rant too cp4097west. If it was a model that was never made in plastic that will be made and I wanted it, I would be happier than I was the day before I knew they are doing it in plastic for the first time. Little detail items would not be the HUGEST deal at that point. I can see both of your arguments for real. Some of the model railroadings are unhappy with everything, all they do is b*tch and complain about everything but then there are some people that are SOMETIMES unhappy with the lack of detail presented in a "Test model" on a model they really wanted. I am laid back and easy going most of the time but I do be busting mad jokes and throw some shots at manufactures but overall I let it roll right off my shoulder at the end of the day, WELL, until I see some replies on the topic. LOL
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Post by tracktime on Jul 21, 2013 21:56:30 GMT -8
For those of you who may have missed it, here is an update from Athearn (posted on Athearn's official facebook page) since their SDP45 Announcement:
SDP45 FAQs
Southern Pacific 1. SD40M-2: yes, this is a possibility for future runs
Great Northern 1. Snowplow: the early decorated sample we received included the tall snowplow with steam line doors. Unfortunately there was not enough time to obtain the correct EMD low snowplow with steam line door before the show. The factory has already been informed and this will be changed for final production. 2. Winterization hatch: we’re conducting additional research to verify the concerns about whether or not the model should include this feature. Once we confirm which is correct, we will make the proper adjustments if necessary and will post the results on our Facebook page. 3. Beacon with cap: we do not have a beacon with cap in our portfolio. Unfortunately we have to draw a line at some point on how much detail we can include on a model to keep it economically viable.
Erie Lackawanna 1. Low profile fans: the early decorated sample we received has the incorrect fans on the dynamic brake. Unfortunately there was not enough time prior to the show to mold and paint a new part. The factory has already been notified and this will be corrected on final production. 2. Bicentennial – definitely!
Other 1. Roadnames and paint schemes: this is just the first production run. We have several more runs planned. 2. Undecorated: with the limited number of roadnames and paint schemes, we are yet to determine whether or not we’ll offer the SDP45 as an undecorated model. 3. BN #6599 with experimental truck: we did not tool this option.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 22, 2013 1:49:22 GMT -8
For those of you who may have missed it, here is an update from Athearn (posted on Athearn's official facebook page) since their SDP45 Announcement: SDP45 FAQs Southern Pacific 1. SD40M-2: yes, this is a possibility for future runs Great Northern 1. Snowplow: the early decorated sample we received included the tall snowplow with steam line doors. Unfortunately there was not enough time to obtain the correct EMD low snowplow with steam line door before the show. The factory has already been informed and this will be changed for final production. 2. Winterization hatch: we’re conducting additional research to verify the concerns about whether or not the model should include this feature. Once we confirm which is correct, we will make the proper adjustments if necessary and will post the results on our Facebook page. 3. Beacon with cap: we do not have a beacon with cap in our portfolio. Unfortunately we have to draw a line at some point on how much detail we can include on a model to keep it economically viable. SNIP Sounds to me like Athearn is moving expeditiously on this and will address the documented issues, for the most part. And they're even considering undecs! That would be a great option. AS I've noted before, this is one model that deserves that consideration. The model railroad budget for passenger motive power for those of us pretty much stuck between the 60s and early 1970s is often more generous than 1:1 was. If I can work it into my budget, an undec would be greatly preferred. And my gripe with Athearn -- everybody's got one, right? -- is that it's hard to find Athearn info because everything on their website pushes you onto FB, which is not very helpful if you think you can just as well do without more corp/gov't snooping in your life...Thanks goodness for MRN and MRH for posting direct links in or I'd be pretty much in the dark on the details...[grumble, grumble, says they perplexed old fart ]
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Post by riogrande on Jul 22, 2013 2:22:50 GMT -8
HAL 9000 is the talking computer from the 2001 and 2010 A Space Odyssy movies.
I'm glad Athearn is responsive in making corrections to the models announced!
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Post by Gary P on Jul 22, 2013 3:29:29 GMT -8
I will defintely get a SP unit as these ran all the time next to ATSF in California. They are doing GN. Did these make it into BN Green? That would be nice in a second run. I bet they do EL Bicentennial down the road also. That engine is the best Bicentennial Paint Scheme hand's down.I don't know... N&W's was pretty damn sweet. But *when* Athearn produces the EL Bicentenial I'll be there with credit card in hand Well, I have to admit... I'm a sucker for the Bicentenial paint schemes, and if they do the EL Bicentennial one, I'm in for sure!
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Post by Spikre on Jul 22, 2013 10:16:09 GMT -8
Al, one does not mess with a HAL 9000,period . the SDP45s will be welcome here in EL. EL did move the horns around due to the PC run thrus to Boston that replaced the Maybrook line after the Bridge fire. that was the Great Poughkeepsie Bridge,4028' long,212' high,built by the Central New England before New Haven took them over. so there should be some pics of EL SDP45s and even Alco Centuries in Beacon Yard. but most of the EL power was turned at Selkirk,unless PC was having a Bad Power Day,which was becoming more common by 1976. Spikre
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