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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 9:43:04 GMT -8
I think the below zero temperatures have frozen my brain. As the Crandall Cab gets along, I've been thinking of tackling a Metra EMD F40C. The F40C's have cult status in Chicago and hopefully someday Metra will grace the Illinois Railway Museum with a survivor. In the meantime, I've been looking them over assembling data and wondering if such a build is really possible. Thinking that I'd start with a blue box FP45 and F45 bodies. I figure I can harvest the fluting from Athearn shorty passenger cars. They are not too hard to find and the price isn't too bad. Sawing up a Genesis at this time doesn't seem financially prudent, since I don't know if I'm capable of this build.  |
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Post by onequiknova on Dec 30, 2013 9:54:08 GMT -8
I think the below zero temperatures have frozen my brain. As the Crandall Cab gets along, I've been thinking of tackling a Metra EMD F40C. The F40C's have cult status in Chicago and hopefully someday Metra will grace the Illinois Railway Museum with a survivor. In the meantime, I've been looking them over assembling data and wondering if such a build is really possible. Thinking that I'd start with a blue box FP45 and F45 bodies. I figure I can harvest the fluting from Athearn shorty passenger cars. They are not too hard to find and the price isn't too bad. Sawing up a Genesis at this time doesn't seem financially prudent, since I don't know if I'm capable of this build. The stainless grilles on the side are going to be a big hurdle. A stainless etching would be the best way to go here. I've been messing around designing various photo etches on a program called Inkscape, and am about ready to send off my first one for my Capone coaches. It may be something to look into. |
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Post by trebor on Dec 30, 2013 10:09:30 GMT -8
Oh be still my heart. I have seen several of these floating around at clubs in varying degrees of prototype adherence. BB is the way to go and there is the F40PH etched grill available. SD40-2 frame is close I think and tank steps a problem for us metal working phobics. Frame fuel tank configuration an differing Athearn truck mounting from HT-C to Flexicoil are issues to be surmounted. If exact fluting isn't absolute requirement, Evergreen corrugated siding is a good possibility. Use trim strips or overlay of plastic cut bout framing. On the positive side, body cuts and splices are pretty straightforward and follow the flow of EMD's panels. Metra lettering is around from Micro Scale but the neater post delivery Nortran scheme with blue Milw lettering would be a bigger challenge. I worked for Nortran  . BTW the urban legend has it that the stainless jalousie panels were at the behest of a NSMTD board member also a member of Ill Rwy Museum who wanted to match Milw's Budds. I guess taxpayers pockets are deep. I think the units should have been without the SS panels and in Milw/UP yellow with small Nortran or NSMTD sub lettering like the letter board ownership on passenger cars. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 30, 2013 10:20:42 GMT -8
Jim,
That is exciting news......but would it not be a more logical route to go with a Kaslo SDP40F? (I think someone stated that the shells are available again).
The SDP40F and F40C (and F40PH) are in the same Dash-2 carbody family (although the F40C is shorter than the SDP40F). If I'm not mistaken the radiator grills, and underframe details are similar.
What do you think?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 12:27:19 GMT -8
The F40C has a wheel base of 56'1" while the SDP40F has a wheel base of 59'7". There is 3.5 feet of choo choo missing on the F40 versus its cousin SDP40F. I know there is a difference but can't quickly put my finger on the exterior difference due to the wheel base.
Having worked with a Kaslo resin shell, its a possibility but any shortening of the body is much harder that hacking on some plastic BB FP/F45's. Especially if the tick-tack-toe panels are different
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 31, 2013 8:18:17 GMT -8
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 10, 2014 11:39:16 GMT -8
Would love to see you do these. Oh and just for motivation, Metra is bringing them out of Mothballs and placing them back in service sometime in the future  |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jan 10, 2014 14:13:47 GMT -8
They need to send a couple of them out here to California! Metrolink needs help bad! The F59PHs, I love them dearly, but some of them are on their "last legs." I bet an F40C could haul six cars up the 1 to 1.5% grade on the San Bernardino line between Covina and Pomona at 70MPH, no problem!
Donnell
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 10, 2014 15:54:11 GMT -8
Heck, I want F59's for our next loco purchase. Would love to send the last two bad boys to you,but then I would never see them I would love for them to come over to the Rock and do "break in" runs....yeah thats it...break in runs. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jan 10, 2014 17:14:33 GMT -8
Maybe we could arranged a motive power swap. Most of the land is relatively flat in the Chicagoland area, so F59s wouls naturally thrive. We need those big SDs to pull these heavy grades!
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 10, 2014 18:27:03 GMT -8
Got a pretty good one on the Rock, not too bad elsewhere to my knowledge.
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Post by trebor on Jan 10, 2014 19:41:29 GMT -8
Looking at the fluting I'm sticking with the Evergreen "square wave" pattern siding. The fluting does not appear to match any of that on any of the plastic passenger cars i know of.
AFAK, the fluting on E5's was the same as on the train. A bit of trivia, the legend is that the Museum of Science and Industry's O scale layouts skirting was actual OEM car side panels.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jan 11, 2014 5:13:19 GMT -8
The fluting on the F40C was intended to "somewhat" match that of the original Milwaukee Road gallery cars.  However, the fluting on the locomotives was modernized with a much simpler and lower cost pattern that was very similar to that of the prototype Budd Metroliner/Amfleet units:   In layman's terms: Traditional Budd Fluting Pattern: Raised Rounded Flute-Small Ridges on Edges-Concave panel. Modern Fluted Panels: Raised semiSquared Flute-Flat Panel. ("sqaure wave" style, as mentioned by Trebor) This varied depending on manufacturer and year. The fluting on some of the newer cars have an even wider and more squared profile.   As has been discussed before, Bachmann did a very poor job replicating that pattern. Walthers, however, did capture the pattern reasonably well on their older run (1990s?) Amfleet cars as seen on this photo.  Of course due to the rounded contour of current HO Amfleet units, cobbling flutes from a Walthers Amcan might not be practical. Plastruct offers corrugated panels that look very close to that of the F40C, however, the only version I've seen is for G-scale. Check Trebor's suggestions to see how close the Evergreen pattern comes. Might be a winner. As I've respectfully suggested, contacting Mark at Union Station Products might be the best route to take if the desired fluted pattern is not available from any of the current hobby manufacturers. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jan 11, 2014 8:18:14 GMT -8
Looking at the fluting I'm sticking with the Evergreen "square wave" pattern siding. The fluting does not appear to match any of that on any of the plastic passenger cars i know of. AFAK, the fluting on E5's was the same as on the train. A bit of trivia, the legend is that the Museum of Science and Industry's O scale layouts skirting was actual OEM car side panels.
That legend is true. I visited that museum many times as a child and distinctly remember the fluting. I believe it was Budd fluting.
Donnell |
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Post by atsfan on Jan 11, 2014 8:22:43 GMT -8
Is that fluting or grill work? As in air can go through it?
California needs some of the new MP36's that
everyone else is getting.
New new models are out and nice. I have seen them in several road names.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jan 11, 2014 8:26:18 GMT -8
We have several of the MP units. They seem to pretty strong too. But they are slow loaders. It seems like it takes them forever to get up to speed.
As for the F40C fluting, it is fluting, and not grille work. I had planned to do these a long while ago, and wanted to have the fluted panels etched in SS. Are there any real good close-ups, or any measurements available? Can anyone in the Chicago area take on the task of getting measurements? Responsibly, of course!
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 11, 2014 8:39:25 GMT -8
That should be a solid structure. FRA rules require the engine area to be pressurized,one reason you wont see us running with open doors anymore. Never paid much attention to the fluting on the new electric cars ( odd cause I deal with them a lot) but they do look sharp. Has anyone seen the new loco Siemens is putting out? I have a feeling Metra will be getting them. I know Amtrak is looking to get them as the GE units cant handle a high speed crash.
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Post by mrsocal on Jan 11, 2014 19:32:41 GMT -8
I rode this line just one time from Chicago to Algonquin with my dad when I went to visit. I remember fast but a lot of stops along the way.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jan 12, 2014 9:22:42 GMT -8
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 12, 2014 9:24:09 GMT -8
Yeah that sounds like the Milwaukee district lol. Fast but a LOT of stops. I guess I cant say we dont have a lot of stops as well. 23 total including flags.
BTW I noticed one of these sitting at NRE near Barr yard. You can see it from 57. I think there are two there,but never stopped to look really.
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Post by rockisland652 on Jan 12, 2014 9:30:46 GMT -8
Is that fluting or grill work? As in air can go through it? California needs some of the new MP36's that everyone else is getting. New new models are out and nice. I have seen them in several road names. It is cosmetic fluting IIRC. |
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 12, 2014 9:31:26 GMT -8
Ant I will keep you guys updated on when they come out. I dont know anyone on the North lines, but Mechanical might let me know if I ask. here is the press release on the capital projects part of Metras web site.
PE 4401 LOCOMOTIVE REPOWERING F40Cs, MET
Metra proposes to repower two F40C locomotives used to provide commuter passenger rail service in the Chicago area. The repowering will consist of a new diesel engine and control package. The diesel engine will be certified to EPA Tier III requirements, thus achieving reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in addition to those achieved through remanufacturing of locomotives. This project also includes the purchase of spare parts.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jan 18, 2014 6:05:22 GMT -8
To those of you that are knowledgeable about modern computer technology......
We've seen a lot of exciting tidbits of info regarding 3D printing. Do you think that the fluting pattern can be produced with a 3D printer? If so, can it be done at a cost that won't break a wallet?
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Post by trebor on Jan 18, 2014 8:37:48 GMT -8
Ant I will keep you guys updated on when they come out. I dont know anyone on the North lines, but Mechanical might let me know if I ask. here is the press release on the capital projects part of Metras web site. PE 4401 LOCOMOTIVE REPOWERING F40Cs, MET Metra proposes to repower two F40C locomotives used to provide commuter passenger rail service in the Chicago area. The repowering will consist of a new diesel engine and control package. The diesel engine will be certified to EPA Tier III requirements, thus achieving reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in addition to those achieved through remanufacturing of locomotives. This project also includes the purchase of spare parts. In talking to a few industry people and having an avocational interest, a F40C rebuild would have been a serious consideration. One of the operating limitations of the F40C was it was too heavy for a couple of bridges on the C&NW. The MP36's were supposed to be more flexible, but came in too heavy to operate on the 2 north C&NW subs. Also we know how Metra is totally free from political influence  and who might "get a deal " on a particular purchase. Gee any of the old F40C's around in a bone yard that could be bought back at a slightly inflated price?  There are a LOT of spare parts around for most of the F40C and new Tier III and electricals would probably be an easy fit. IIRc the trucks on the MP's are not standard Blombergs. Maintenance wise, the F40C has 2 more motors, but that gave them really good acceleration. Having paced many commuter trains on the way home from the hobby shop loaded with trains myself, the difference in loading and acceleration was noticeable. From a personal view and the only point that really matters, the F40c was one of EMD's brutally beautiful cowls  . The MP looks like a prop from a porno movie.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 10:00:03 GMT -8
Ant I will keep you guys updated on when they come out. I dont know anyone on the North lines, but Mechanical might let me know if I ask. here is the press release on the capital projects part of Metras web site. PE 4401 LOCOMOTIVE REPOWERING F40Cs, MET Metra proposes to repower two F40C locomotives used to provide commuter passenger rail service in the Chicago area. The repowering will consist of a new diesel engine and control package. The diesel engine will be certified to EPA Tier III requirements, thus achieving reduction in greenhouse gas emissions in addition to those achieved through remanufacturing of locomotives. This project also includes the purchase of spare parts. In talking to a few industry people and having an avocational interest, a F40C rebuild would have been a serious consideration. One of the operating limitations of the F40C was it was too heavy for a couple of bridges on the C&NW. The MP36's were supposed to be more flexible, but came in too heavy to operate on the 2 north C&NW subs. Also we know how Metra is totally free from political influence and who might "get a deal " on a particular purchase. Gee any of the old F40C's around in a bone yard that could be bought back at a slightly inflated price? There are a LOT of spare parts around for most of the F40C and new Tier III and electricals would probably be an easy fit. IIRc the trucks on the MP's are not standard Blombergs. Maintenance wise, the F40C has 2 more motors, but that gave them really good acceleration. Having paced many commuter trains on the way home from the hobby shop loaded with trains myself, the difference in loading and acceleration was noticeable. From a personal view and the only point that really matters, the F40c was one of EMD's brutally beautiful cowls . The MP looks like a prop from a porno movie. National Railway Equipment in Dixmoor has one the 610. Helm in East St. Louis got 600, 601, 602, 603, 604, 605, 606, 607, 608, 609, 612 and 613. Metra still has 611 and 614 and is looking for funding to convert them to tier III compliant. |
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thunder
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Post by thunder on Jan 18, 2014 13:50:10 GMT -8
LOL I agree on the MP being a prop |
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Post by onequiknova on Jan 18, 2014 20:46:04 GMT -8
To those of you that are knowledgeable about modern computer technology......
We've seen a lot of exciting tidbits of info regarding 3D printing. Do you think that the fluting pattern can be produced with a 3D printer? If so, can it be done at a cost that won't break a wallet?A stainless etch would be perfect for this application. If dimensions were available, I could probably design the artwork in a few hours. I doubt you'd be able to sell enough of them to recoup your costs though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 21:09:17 GMT -8
To those of you that are knowledgeable about modern computer technology......
We've seen a lot of exciting tidbits of info regarding 3D printing. Do you think that the fluting pattern can be produced with a 3D printer? If so, can it be done at a cost that won't break a wallet?A stainless etch would be perfect for this application. If dimensions were available, I could probably design the artwork in a few hours. I doubt you'd be able to sell enough of them to recoup your costs though. I see all the neat etched parts from Keith Hapes of Plano Model Products and wonder how many units he has to sell in order just to recoup his investment. Model railroad manufacturing isn't for the faint of heart or wallet. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 21:11:47 GMT -8
The F40C is such a specialized unit only being built for Nortran(Milwaukee Road)/Metra it isn't something that exactly raises the blood pressure in San Francisco and Baltimore and other parts north, south east and west....
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Post by onequiknova on Jan 18, 2014 21:41:03 GMT -8
I just paid $98 to have 16 2x2" etches done for my Capone project, which equals just over $6 an etch. Obviously, the more you have done, the cheaper the unit price gets, so If you have an etch that you can sell a bunch of, you shouldn't have to much trouble making a couple bucks.
I've got another etch in the works for RI E units that probably won't break even, but I'm willing to pay a premium to have it. A F40C etch would probably fall into that category.
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and who might "get a deal " on a particular purchase. Gee any of the old F40C's around in a bone yard that could be bought back at a slightly inflated price?
. The MP looks like a prop from a porno movie.