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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 0:41:49 GMT -8
I know a lot of you thought this project was dead and few feared I might be dead, but I am hear to assure you we are both vey much alive. When Hornby decided to jump on our bandwagon and co-op all of the work we had done to build up a market in the press, we decided that we would have to go back to the old way of doing business. Namely, a press blackout until we were sure that our competitor was far enough along that we wouldn't end up with a clone or that they would push their schedules in order to try and beat us to the market. I apologize, but we wanted to be sure when we were done, our models would be unlike the others on the market and I hope you all think they will be worth the wait. We still haven't backed away from our intial plans. In fact, once we started doing more research and developing the designs for these models, we realized the only fair thing for all the model railroaders out there was for us to go all out. That is why instead of choosing to offer only one of the prototype Phases of this model, we developed the tooling to offer all the versions and Phases of the U25C/CU/U28C that GE ever built and we will be offering paint schemes for every owner, too. We have decided to postpone one category. We are pushing back on offering our models with sound and only offering DCC and sound ready this summer. In the near future, I will be able to share some photos "under the hood" that will show you how far we went to make these models sound ready. They are literally "drop in the speakers." Given the demo I did for my boss of the Tsunami motor control, he said there was no way he would ever offer it unless he also offered another option as well. We have been testing the ESU LokSound V4 and the motor control is incredible. The new sound file is also at least as good(probably better) than Tsunami. But, there is still one other reason we have decided to hold off on sound. The TCS WOW sound knocked our socks off, but we still haven't heard back when they might be ready to do a diesel sound decoder. Well, enough of my blabbing, here are some photos. PC 6518 is a Phase IIIb version with the expanded oil compartment. Its kind of hard to see, but directly behind the cab is the air resevoir compartment with etched screen doors and detailed interior. ACL 3015 is a Phase II version without the expanded oil compartment. It also has the inadequately vented air resevoir compartment that led to the Phase III versions. A full side view. So, let me know what you all think. BTW, those couplers WILL NOT be on the final versions. The production models will either have Kadees or, depending on our patent application, a new all-metal Kadee compatible automatic coupler that no longer need those pesky knuckle springs that are always popping off.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 0:57:14 GMT -8
Oh, I forgot to give you all the roadname and number list. ACL #3005, Phase II ACL #3009, Phase II SCL #2105, Phase II SCL #2108, Phase II CB&Q #553, Phase IIIb CB&Q #560, Phase IIIb CR #6519, Phase IIIb CR #6810, Phase IIIb Family Lines #LN 1502, Phase IIIb Family Lines #LN 1505, Phase IIIb Oro Dam #8017, Phase IIIb Oro Dam #8018, Phase IIIb L&N #1500, Phase IIIb L&N #1502, Phase IIIb L&N #1505, Phase IIIb NP #2516, Phase IIIb NP #2517, Phase IIIb NP #2519, Phase IIIb BN #5631, Phase IIIb BN #5635, Phase IIIb BN #5640, Phase IIIb PRR #6513, Phase IIIb PRR #6516, Phase IIIb PRR #6518, Phase IIIb PC #6512, Phase IIIb PC #6513, Phase IIIb PC #6518, Phase IIIb LS&I #2501, Phase II Undecorated, Phase II Undecorated, Phase IIIb (no extended oil pump compartment) DId I leave any off? The undec models will come with a whole slew of extra parts although we aren't sure if we will include all the parts to detail for every road and number. That would require over 300 extra parts! Also, any of you folks in the Maryland area, I plan on being at Timonium with a fleet of models to show off.
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 25, 2014 4:24:28 GMT -8
This is great news. I'm happy to hear rumors of your death have been exaggerated. Now, where can we get one of these engines?
Also, check your PMs...
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Post by thb401 on Feb 25, 2014 4:33:19 GMT -8
So far so good. Another long overdue locomotive coming to HO Scale. Cant go wrong with Kadees. Hopefully these sell well. And you can carry on with the rest of the U Series. Thanks for the updates. Bill
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Post by dti406 on Feb 25, 2014 5:00:56 GMT -8
Why only one LS&I number, they had at least two that the DT&I leased and most DT&I modelers want two units as they always ran together while on the DT&I.
Rick J
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 25, 2014 6:30:54 GMT -8
Why only one LS&I number, they had at least two that the DT&I leased and most DT&I modelers want two units as they always ran together while on the DT&I. Rick J They have to save something for future releases. A bit of trivia, the engine from the U25C that is on display was removed and installed in one of the ex-BN U Boats when it blew up.
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Post by keystonefarm on Feb 25, 2014 10:07:45 GMT -8
Glad to see the project is still alive. One suggestion on the PRR/PC units. Do not duplicate the numbers between the roadnames. This allows a PRR/PC modeler ( like me ) to be able to purchase additional units without having to renumber factory painted units. ---------- Thanks, Ken McCorry
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Post by cf7 on Feb 25, 2014 12:35:42 GMT -8
They do look great, but the Atlantic Coast Line lettering is completely wrong. Wrong size, font...
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 25, 2014 13:39:02 GMT -8
They do look great, but the Atlantic Coast Line lettering is completely wrong. Wrong size, font... I'm sure they would like a link to the correct font and size so they can fix it before it goes into production.
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Post by cf7 on Feb 25, 2014 13:49:24 GMT -8
They do look great, but the Atlantic Coast Line lettering is completely wrong. Wrong size, font... I'm sure they would like a link to the correct font and size so they can fix it before it goes into production. Not really sure I need to provide that. They should already have the right info, and besides, it's not hard to find. I have tried to help out manufacturers in the past...only to be ignored. So, I won't go out of my way to do that again.
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Post by carrman on Feb 25, 2014 14:21:46 GMT -8
Well I hope KBM takes a tip from Rivarossi and works with the appropriate historical societies in order to get the paint and lettering right. I really want to buy the KBM, but if they blow the BN units I'm not buying.
Dave
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 25, 2014 15:37:04 GMT -8
I'm sure they would like a link to the correct font and size so they can fix it before it goes into production. Not really sure I need to provide that. They should already have the right info, and besides, it's not hard to find. I have tried to help out manufacturers in the past...only to be ignored. So, I won't go out of my way to do that again. I guess I don't understand that, but to each his own. I've made a lot more suggestions along my path of life that were ignored than accepted but it never stopped my effort to at least add another viewpoint to a project. Even worse is to be ignored for the time being then some time down the road the change comes to fruition under the guise of an original idea by the same one you told about it. Often times a fresh viewpoint from someone not so heavily involved might save an error from occurring, or you could just sit back and say, see, I told you so.
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Post by roadkill on Feb 25, 2014 17:15:33 GMT -8
I'm on board with the dcc/sound ready version coming out first since I prefer silence. First one out of the gate is getting my $$$.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 18:09:41 GMT -8
I will try to answer the questions one at a time, as I have the time in order of which ones are easiest to answer. The reason for the LS and I only getting 1 number has several reasons. 1. Since we plan on doing a future release of mostly Phase II models, we wanted to include an LS&I model in that run. 2. Since the LS&Ionly had 2 U25C, we felt we should hold back one so that we can offer a new number the next time. We didn't want future releases to appear like we are just re-releasing the exact same models. 3. Not everyone here is as convinced as I am that we can sell a lot of LS&I models. Being from Wisconsin, I feel the pain. I hate that for many years, manufacturers seemed to ignore those of us who model the upper midwest railroads. I spent 20 years waiting for a plastic A-1 HI until Fox Valley finally came to my rescue. I am still pushing for a DM&IR Yellowstone, but that is still a hard sell. I am also getting tired of the same worn out warmed over ore jennies. I want to make the new high capacity ones built for the BN, but given their limited numbers, ownership by just one railroad and that they seldom venture out of Minnesota and Wisconsin, that's an even harder sell than the Yellowstone. The boss is a rare steam fan, however so he has talked about many low volume projects that may give hope to anyone modeling a small railroad like the LS&I. He recently asked me what I thought about doing the Chippewa! And he is a sucker for historic models, too. The selling point for the LS&I was when I showed him they had preserved the last surviving U25C! I was able to push the Oro Dam models wen he found out that the Oro Dam order was the main trigger for the huge 6 axle market we see today! He couldn't resistdoing a model that represents the great-grandfather of the entire modern diesel fleet! So, not to worry. With what we have sunk into this project, by the time we are done, you will probably see both 2500 and 2501 painted in every scheme they ever wore.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 18:32:16 GMT -8
Next question or comment. We have actually been in contact with every Historical Society that was willing to respond to our emails. We received greathelp from the PRR, PC, NP and CBQ (I hope I didn't forget anyone) Historical Societies. We had planned on being at the NP/CBQ convention in Billings last year, but the whole Billings airport fiasco made the timing impossible for us. Add to that having to reconvince a few folks not to can the project over Hornby's decision to suddenly start making the U25C again after having written it off more than 15 years ago! It still comes up from time to time why they would ignore requests of modelers to build a model for 15 years only to suddenly announce they are now going to make them again after a company just starting to do projects on their own picks it as their first model. We also noticed that right after they announced their project, suddenly certain prototype resources suddenly disappeared. Certain people who had been helping us suddenly stopped helping us. For some railroads, our research email chains stopped cold the day Hornby made their announcement. I still find that rather suspicious. But all will be forgiven as I am confident in the quality and accuracy of our models. I know I don't have any hope of pleasing every member of the most notorious collection of rivet counters on the internet. Of which I admit I am also a member. (Yet another reason I hate MTH!) But, I strongly believe we will meet our initial goal which was that our models be able to stand up to at least 10 minutes of scrutiny by before finding an error that can be backed up with photographic evidence. (Nice, see how I qualified that there?)
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Post by soo760 on Feb 25, 2014 18:37:19 GMT -8
Thanks for the additional information on the LS&I units. I assume that the 2501 will be in the modern red scheme that it last wore in service and still wears today on display in Marquette. Count me in for this one plus both the 2500 and 2501 in the solid maroon scheme.
Mike Cleary Roberts, Wisconsin
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 19:45:56 GMT -8
Now the paint question.
This one is extremely difficult as Atlas, Walthers and Athrean can all attest to. We had planned on following the prototype color guides from the actual paintshops and when we couldn't get those we were going to follow any color guidance that Historical Societies would be able to provide. But, we have run into a few difficulties.
First, certain paint colors continue to be mired in controversy. This one is often fueled by mergers of fallen flags and the rumors some railroad paint shops continued to use old paint stocks after a merger, or so the stories go. How green is Pennsy green? Were all PC units painted black or did some still get leftover Pennsy paint? Did it make a difference if they were painted in the old NYC shop or Altoona? These were questions that even the folks in the Historical Societies still have to tread lightly with.
Then, there is the problem of fading and drift. What is truly the right shade of gray for a L&N or a SBD Family Lines locomotive? French gray is suppose to be the color on SBD engines, but how many days in the southern sun before it fades to something more like L&N gray? And for that matter, how long does it take for L&N gray to basicly become just dirty white? I know a museum in TN that probably knows that one and curses about it every day! And what color do most modelers see in photos or in their mind's eye? We have over 100 photos of L&N and SBD locomotives and I would say that unless photos are taken on the same day of the same locomotive (with the same camera!), they are almost all a different shade of gray! That is why in many cases we are starting to default to HiRes photos rather than color formulas.
Add to this, the problem of paint companies not always agreeing on what is the right color for something like SP Lark Dark Gray. We have paint chips from 3 different companies and none are even close to being the same! So now we have another dilemma. Do we formulate our own colors to get the most accurate match? This would then mean that in the future for any chips, repairs or added detailing modelers would have to resort to difficult custom mixing to try to match the paint. On the other hand, if we pick an acceptable color from a comapny like Badger or Tru-Color, then modelers will have nothing to worry about if they ever need to do touch ups!
Finally, thre is the question of color scaling. A few scientists have even taken up this cause. For reasons still not completely understood, you can paint an O scale model and an N scale model the exact same color and for some extremely complex reason our eyes will see two different colors when the models are placed side by side. The smaller object appears darker in most situations. Add to this that almost all prototype photos (and our memories) are based on outdoor lighting, while almost every model spends its entire life under indoor lighting. (MTH actually ran into the reverse problem when it painted its large scale Daylight with "indoor colors." Athrean has worked many years on this exact issue and are to be congratulated for how well they have managed to overcome it. I spoke at length with some of the paint experts from various Historical Societies and we came to the mutual conclusion that for HO and smaller, an exact match to the color chips or drift cards usually end up looking completely wrong. Again, not having the YEARS Atlas and Athrean put into "scaling" colors, we have gone to comparing painted models directly to Hi Res prototype photos from our library.
Oh, and one more thing we have run into specifically with the SBD. For some reason, it seemed that the LN/SCL SBD Family Lines couldn't make up their minds whether trucks and tanks should be gray or black. We have photos of the same locos painted both ways! They also couldn't decide if the stripes should run to the bottom of the pilot or just to the top of the kickplate. So, in this case I asked our graphic artist which he thought created a better looking model. Fortunately, (I think) his Loewy side beat out his cheapskate 70s accountant side.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 19:52:20 GMT -8
Thanks for the additional information on the LS&I units. I assume that the 2501 will be in the modern red scheme that it last wore in service and still wears today on display in Marquette. Count me in for this one plus both the 2500 and 2501 in the solid maroon scheme. Mike Cleary Roberts, Wisconsin Actually, we are kind of leaning toward doing the maroon one first. You see our first release we want to use as much of our detail parts tooling as we can, so we wanted to do most of our models as they appeared before railroads started stripping off things like the slip controls. However, like I said, my boss is a sucker for the historic and it doesn't get any more historic than 2501 sitting it red yellow and white on the shores of the big lake.
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Post by dti406 on Feb 25, 2014 20:04:43 GMT -8
I want the yellow red and white units, but they will be going from Flat Rock to Delta hauling the auto parts for connection with the N&W.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 20:13:49 GMT -8
Glad to see the project is still alive. One suggestion on the PRR/PC units. Do not duplicate the numbers between the roadnames. This allows a PRR/PC modeler ( like me ) to be able to purchase additional units without having to renumber factory painted units. ---------- Thanks, Ken McCorry That is a good point that we have thought about a lot and for some companies the answer would be vey simple. For some companies, they just change the numbers, but for us, because of our goal to do not just railroad specific deatailing, but to do number specific detailing, adding additional numbers can sometimes become costly. At the urging of members of some of the Historical Societies, we increased the number of roadnumbers from 2 to 3 for certain railroads that were well known for running triples. However, in order to do this all in the first run, we had to consolidate the number of different detailing packages. That is why we have "doubled up" on certain numbers. If we chose to make 3 PRR numbers and then 3 different PC numbers, that would mean we would possibly have to make 6 distinctly detailed versions. For the first run, we compromised and are doing four. BUT, rest assured, because of the tooling package we did for this project and the extreme veriety of paint and patch the former PRR models went through, you will see many more unique PRR and PC models to come. You may also see the Phase IIIa models in the future as well as CR patches in all sorts of verieties.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 20:16:38 GMT -8
I want the yellow red and white units, but they will be going from Flat Rock to Delta hauling the auto parts for connection with the N&W. I will see what I can do...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2014 20:33:24 GMT -8
That is why instead of choosing to offer only one of the prototype Phases of this model, we developed the tooling to offer all the versions and Phases of the U25C/CU/U28C that GE ever built and we will be offering paint schemes for every owner, too. If you're doing all the U28C's does this mean
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 21:08:28 GMT -8
They do look great, but the Atlantic Coast Line lettering is completely wrong. Wrong size, font... Oops, almost forgot... Thank you for the reminders. I have to admit that ACL/SCL/SAL are not really a strong suit of mine, however a few of my best friends when I lived in VA would never let me live down messing up thse models. (One even had the reporting marks on his custom plates on both of his cars!) When I first looked at our samples, some of those errors immediately jumped out. I had already asked for some of the changes, but they were too late for the samples. The lettering did seems wrong, but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it was. And since the first look, well you know how after a while you can tend to overlook little things, well thanks for reminding me not to forget about this one. I have been real distracted trying to figure out when green should actually be black and when is dark gray to dark to be considered gray.... But that's another story
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 25, 2014 21:13:56 GMT -8
That is why instead of choosing to offer only one of the prototype Phases of this model, we developed the tooling to offer all the versions and Phases of the U25C/CU/U28C that GE ever built and we will be offering paint schemes for every owner, too. If you're doing all the U28C's does this mean Well, when we first started talking about it in meetings, it meant all the phases of the U25C and the U25CU and the first phases of the U28C, but... Please PM me about this.
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 26, 2014 4:06:31 GMT -8
I just remembered another U boat that doesn't seem to get a lot of attention, but the LS&I had several: the U23C. Maybe if the U25C sells well, you can take a look at that. I don't think it's ever been done in plastic.
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will
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Post by will on Feb 26, 2014 4:32:54 GMT -8
Thank you for the detailed explanation of the project and answers to questions. Interesting answers to the issues of paint color perception, the PRR shade has always been contentious. Back in the 80's I was driving along the loco dead line in Altoona and came across a pair of GP35's. One black, the other clearly a shade of green. What a great illustration of the difference between DGLE and black I thought. Until I realized the green loco was ex NYC.
How difficult is doing a no number unit for PRR/PC?
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Post by slowfreight on Feb 26, 2014 9:50:22 GMT -8
This sounds like a survey question for this forum...would modelers prefer to have 3 different road numbers with one being very slightly a foobie, or get only 2 numbers and know that every unit had exactly correct detailing?
For those of us who like to build, I would think if I knew what wasn't accurate, I would be willing to make the changes if that was the compromise you had to make as a manufacturer. Actually, I prefer to get unnumbered units but I understand they don't sell.
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Post by bigblow69 on Feb 26, 2014 9:51:07 GMT -8
What I will say is that I like this model more than what I've seen from Hornby. I my opinion the Hornby one rides too high off the trucks while this one is spot on. A real big gripe of mine has always been locomotives riding too high off the trucks.
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Post by Spikre on Feb 26, 2014 11:58:34 GMT -8
Terry, Frateschi already has a Trainset quality U23C,C30-7 also. Ambluco says they MAY BE OO Scale Spikre
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Post by ambluco on Feb 26, 2014 12:19:08 GMT -8
Ambluco says SOME of the models appear to be OO. I know some of the exports are a bit too big compared to HO drawings.
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