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Post by roadkill on Feb 26, 2014 15:56:42 GMT -8
If your U25C takes off like I think it will please please PLEASE STRONGLY consider a U25B. We've had nothing but the crappy outdated Stewart/Bowser model to work with for nearly 30 years... and it needs to be replaced by a state-of-the-art U25B. And with what I see of your U25C I know you're up to the task.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 26, 2014 16:23:27 GMT -8
If your U25C takes off like I think it will please please PLEASE STRONGLY consider a U25B. We've had nothing but the crappy outdated Stewart/Bowser model to work with for nearly 30 years... and it needs to be replaced by a state-of-the-art U25B. And with what I see of your U25C I know you're up to the task. Er. Um. Ditto. Ed
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 26, 2014 17:30:05 GMT -8
Terry, Frateschi already has a Trainset quality U23C,C30-7 also. Ambluco says they MAY BE OO Scale check out: www.frateschi.com Spikre You might want to fix that link...
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Post by atsfan on Feb 27, 2014 18:10:01 GMT -8
These looks great. Too early for me, but if they look in person as good as the pictures, an NP one is coming home with me.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 27, 2014 18:11:08 GMT -8
If you're doing all the U28C's does this mean Well, when we first started talking about it in meetings, it meant all the phases of the U25C and the U25CU and the first phases of the U28C, but... Please PM me about this. ATSF sells !!!!
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Post by keystonefarm on Feb 27, 2014 21:53:04 GMT -8
Thanks for the reply. I'm looking forward to seeing the units at Timonium in April. Do you happen to have the Withers PRR book on GE's ? if not I would reccomend getting one. ---------Ken McCorry
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Post by thebessemerkid on Feb 28, 2014 8:29:26 GMT -8
I'd be in for a bunch of PRR/Penn Central undecs (pleeeeease without a gray primer coat and as few parts attached as possible) I like to paint from my own Kodachromes and memory rather than what some society dictates. Some societies are very good. Some are a little too much in love with themselves. Take all input with a grain of salt. Without knowing the end lighting, there is no way to define an accurate color, hence my preference for undecs. Sound or not is OK, I can always add that later. Good luck!
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Post by arandall70 on Feb 28, 2014 10:46:48 GMT -8
[/quote]If you're doing all the U28C's does this mean [/quote] Not to sidetrack the thread with a historical discussion, but why did the ATSF use this "simplified" warbonnet without the yellow and black pin stripe on the long hood? I've always hated this version.
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Post by trebor on Feb 28, 2014 12:50:39 GMT -8
GEEZ, the U25C is not on the shelves yet and KBS is being hounded for late U28C. U25B, U23C. Let's let them catch their breath. There seems to be the model mindset that a U25B would be easier with a U25C as a start, it's not. The late U28C(G) is closer to an Atlas U30 or 33C die wise.
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 28, 2014 15:35:53 GMT -8
GEEZ, the U25C is not on the shelves yet and KBS is being hounded for late U28C. U25B, U23C. Let's let them catch their breath. There seems to be the model mindset that a U25B would be easier with a U25C as a start, it's not. The late U28C(G) is closer to an Atlas U30 or 33C die wise. I think the U25C was the only U boat with Trimount trucks. All the other models had GSC or Adirondack trucks, just for starters.The U23 would be closest to a U30C, just with fewer doors on the long hood (6 per side rather than 8). As far as I know, there are very few interchangeable parts between the U25C and almost anything else. Maybe the frame and fuel tank?
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 28, 2014 18:19:45 GMT -8
What I will say is that I like this model more than what I've seen from Hornby. I my opinion the Hornby one rides too high off the trucks while this one is spot on. A real big gripe of mine has always been locomotives riding too high off the trucks. Actually, that reminds me of an interesting story about our model... We were very careful to watch the height, although I will admit I often think I see something wrong and it will turn out to be spot on when checked against a drawing. Anyway, we were assembling a few of the sample casts to test motors and decoders and suddenly noticed with the tsunami sample that the mechanism had a terrible rocking motion when starting and stopping that we didn't notice with DC or the QSI sample. On closer inspection we found that the king pins had been cast .2 mm too long. This was causing the frame to ride on the kingpins instead of the stabilizing pins. The smooth motor operation using DC and the factory default motor control on the QSI sample was smooth enough that the mechanism didn't start rocking, but the out of the box motor control of the Tsunami wasn't as tuned and so the lurching caused horrible (almost continuous) fits rocking. After careful disassembly and examination, we noticed the model was riding a little high in the saddle. Going back to the drawings we saw that a combination of a slightly deep casting mold and slightly thicker paint was the cause. (Fortunately, it wasn't in the design, just the execution meaning we already had the solution. Anyone who works in manufacturing knows the dread that comes if it turns out to be a design flaw. That's why "Back to the drawing board!" is about the worst you can say to a builder or designer.) For our existing samples, a quick buzz on the belt sander solved the rocking. At first, we thought we would only need to do one end and leave the other one free to rock, you know like tightening just one truck on a freight car. The very slight difference even when multiplied over the length of the frame wouldn't be that significant, or so we thought. In fact, we measured and the difference in height was .016 inches. No one would ever notice that since no one builds track completely free of any dips greater than .016 inches (about 1/64"). But then during a meeting, I noticed one of the models had a coupler that was noticeably lower than on another model. I hadn't seen a problem before because all my samples had Kadee's or our new coupler on them, but this model had those sloppy plastic McHenry's. Because plastic knuckle couplers have a lot looser tolerances and can also deform or sag, suddenly we needed to be sure that our model was dead level. So, back to the belt sander with all the samples. Needless to say, its an old lesson that every manufacturer needs to remember about tolerances, accuracy and good design in your engineering. Ignoring slight imperfections or deciding good enough will often cause many unforeseen consequences. You can never let your guard down.
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 28, 2014 19:14:04 GMT -8
If your U25C takes off like I think it will please please PLEASE STRONGLY consider a U25B. We've had nothing but the crappy outdated Stewart/Bowser model to work with for nearly 30 years... and it needs to be replaced by a state-of-the-art U25B. And with what I see of your U25C I know you're up to the task. Er. Um. Ditto. Ed Well, we have been looking over what we could/should do next. I agree its time to get a better U25B. In fact, any U-boat with solid molded grills or grills made from window screen are in serious need of updating. However, I thin Bowser's model can still be made presentable with a little extra work by the modeler. Given the quality that Bowser has been designing and building into their new models and the depth of those projects, I am prone to wait and see what plans they might have up their sleeve. The way they are going about their GMD SD 40-2 project is exactly the way we had wanted to do this project. But when another manufacturer decides to step in and make the same model at exactly the same time, you kind of have to go back to keeping secrets. A company that simply waits for others before deciding whether or not to make a model, probably would have no qualms about "borrowing" design ideas from others as well. I believe the folks over at Bowser are some of the finest in the business and I would probably have a good talk with them before before I started a U25B project of our own. I believe their are enough potential projects out there for all of us to build without stepping all over each other to make the exact same models. If in talking to them, they were to say they were considering a redesign of the U25B in the next couple years, knowing the great job they have done with their big Alcos, why duplicate their efforts. If they aren't considering redesigning the U25B for the foreseeable future (say next 7 years), then that is a different matter. We also have to consider that the bulk of our current business is still contract business for other companies, so we definitely wouldn't want to take away projects from them. One big positive I hope that comes from this is to show what is possible and what we are capable of and that you can build projects around models that the "old guard" often passed over. Afterall, we can always use another SD70ACE, GP40-2 or F-7, right? I wouldn't be surprised to see some new life awakening in a lot of those old lines and models you all have been mentioning. Bowser has proven they are up to that challenge, I wouldn't write off a new U25B from them just yet. Scott Wendt KB
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Post by roadkill on Feb 28, 2014 19:24:07 GMT -8
I can't say as I share your optimism on the subject of Bowser tooling up a new U25B. And as for upgrading the existing ex-Stewart model, well, trying to upgrade it would be akin to attempting to upgrade a Pemco C430 to the new Bowser unit's accuracy. I may be a skilled modeler (and I'm not too shabby if I do say so myself) but I'm no Houdini.
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 28, 2014 19:30:57 GMT -8
Scott, do you have any retail outlets lined up for selling these U boats?
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 28, 2014 20:19:16 GMT -8
GEEZ, the U25C is not on the shelves yet and KBS is being hounded for late U28C. U25B, U23C. Let's let them catch their breath. There seems to be the model mindset that a U25B would be easier with a U25C as a start, it's not. The late U28C(G) is closer to an Atlas U30 or 33C die wise. I think the U25C was the only U boat with Trimount trucks. All the other models had GSC or Adirondack trucks, just for starters.The U23 would be closest to a U30C, just with fewer doors on the long hood (6 per side rather than 8). As far as I know, there are very few interchangeable parts between the U25C and almost anything else. Maybe the frame and fuel tank? Which might be why its been passed over for so long. Of course, now with modern CNC and tooling design, you may be surprised with what can be made interchangeable. The trucks were in fact unique, which is why I believe no one will probably ever put the amount of effort into designing a GE trimount with this level of detail again. Even so, we probably have close to 30 separate parts for the sideframes that are very capable of being used on other trucks like the GSC or Adirondacks. Your point about the U25B is spot on. Since the B predated the C and the C represented a radical departure in design (namely a 6 axle diesel for slow freight), the two are VERY different. Things like numbers of doors and even different cab window arrangements is easy, its when frame lengths and axle counts and wheelbases change that things are hard. These often require a gearing redesign and a change in speaker mounting or decoder mounting. We could just do like some and design the smallest most compact mechanism and then just stretch it for the bigger models, but then you end up with underweight SD70s with undersized speakers and lots of wasted space. By progressing up from the 25C to a 28 (early) and then a 28 (late) we hope to gradually build the parts inventory that would make future projects easier. Of course this problem is fallout from decisions made by loco builders decades ago and also directly contributed to the winners and losers in the industry for decades to come. GE got much of its designing philosophy from its partner (Alco) through he early years. The idea that unique performance requirements required unique designs came from Alco's history with steam engine design. Alco engineers never seems to quite get the idea of how diesel design could be maximized with mass produced common components. GE would not quite shed this handicap until about the time of the U30C. EMD on the other hand, having never been a steam builder and having huge amounts of experience in mass production and economies of scale (because of GM), did wonders with common design. Consider how trucks designed for the FT could still be found on new locomotives decades later. The Spartan cab, the dynamic brake housing, hood design, there is practically no EMD model that didn't share a majority of its parts with at least 2 or 3 cousins. Irv Athearn decided to capitalized on EMD's smart planning with his own line and Horizon continues to benefit from it to this day. It would be great to be able to with U boats what Athearn has done with the EMD line. (Cabs and trucks that work for a half dozen or more models!) Of course, EMD's super efficient parts catalog vs GE's almost random early designs (based on the Alco design methods) will make this more difficult. But, we'll see! Scott
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Post by wendtsc on Feb 28, 2014 20:23:59 GMT -8
Scott, do you have any retail outlets lined up for selling these U boats? That is something that is ongoing and I as such I cannot talk about at this time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 21:13:12 GMT -8
Scott, do you have any retail outlets lined up for selling these U boats? That is something that is ongoing and I as such I cannot talk about at this time. Hopefully EngineHouse Services LLC on Packerland Drive in Green Bay will be one of your dealers.
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Post by markfj on Mar 1, 2014 5:19:36 GMT -8
Regarding Bowser and the potential for a redesign of the U25B: They just sent out an email yesterday stating that they have installed a new 110 Ton computerized all electric injection molding machine. So, this doesn’t necessarily mean they plan to redo the U25B, but it is a clear indication that they are committed to improving their capabilities.
Regardless, much thanks should be given to Scott and KB for not only bringing this product to the market place, but also sharing so much information on its development.
Thanks!
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Post by Spikre on Mar 1, 2014 12:04:25 GMT -8
Scott, dont over look the Electrics with the GE Tri-Mount trucks: E-33 E44/50 PRR E50 Muskigum Electric there may have been some Exports also. used to watch the PC E44/50s at lunch time,boy could they move out with a freight. a treat would be "Old Rivits",4800,in a trio of freight service GG-1s. if the tracks were clear could see Metroliners at times also. and now Waverly has been gone for at least 30 years. Spikre
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Post by trebor on Mar 1, 2014 12:19:29 GMT -8
Well do an E44 before another slightly better E33,
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Post by bnsf971 on Mar 1, 2014 16:07:11 GMT -8
I think the U25C was the only U boat with Trimount trucks. All the other models had GSC or Adirondack trucks, just for starters.The U23 would be closest to a U30C, just with fewer doors on the long hood (6 per side rather than 8). As far as I know, there are very few interchangeable parts between the U25C and almost anything else. Maybe the frame and fuel tank? All of the Phase Ia & Ib U28Cs (the ones that share the U25C body) also ran on Trimount trucks: CB&Q 562 - 577 NP 2800 - 2811 Example is NP's last U28C 2811: www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2057146The revised-body Phase II U28C / U28CGs had the later trucks. Those were the L&N, PRR, SP, UP, and ATSF units. Roster: www.trainweb.org/jaydeet/u28c.htmIt sounds like U25C production roughly mirrored U25B production in that late production 25 looked almost identical to early 28 production. I know early U30 models looked identical to late U28 models.
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 2, 2014 17:28:25 GMT -8
That is something that is ongoing and I as such I cannot talk about at this time. Hopefully EngineHouse Services LLC on Packerland Drive in Green Bay will be one of your dealers. You know I spoke with Paul last fall before things got real crazy here. I can pretty much guarantee that he will be able to get plenty of these models in stock. You know when we come to the US in April, being as I am a Wisconsinite at heart and an old Bayport Pirate, I am trying to extend our little hobby shop demo tour as far as I can toward the Bay area. I will be posting a list of where we will be as the time approaches.
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Post by wendtsc on Mar 2, 2014 17:32:57 GMT -8
Sorry, off topic. Just got some "stuff" for our possible N Scale project. I have got to keep it a secret, but I don't know how I will do it! Scott
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Post by dtinut on Mar 9, 2014 11:12:22 GMT -8
I want the yellow red and white units, but they will be going from Flat Rock to Delta hauling the auto parts for connection with the N&W. Me too!
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Post by dti406 on Mar 9, 2014 15:43:12 GMT -8
I want the yellow red and white units, but they will be going from Flat Rock to Delta hauling the auto parts for connection with the N&W. Me too! Just saw the DT&I DVD by Emery Goulash recording the U25C's on the Delta Turn, just reinforces my wish for the as delivered U25c's of the LS&I. Rick J
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