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Post by atsfan on Jun 22, 2012 14:51:45 GMT -8
I have scaled back my purchasing. This looks like a nice car and if I saw it somewhere for sale I might pick one up if the mood hit me.
But I don't think I will bother with ordering one.
I have a bunch of the Walther's center beams. I did not get any of the Atlas cars due to the issues they had. I remember the horrible kits years ago.
Still on the fence though about this car and it finding a home with me...................
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Post by el3637 on Jun 22, 2012 16:06:42 GMT -8
Although the price seems high, I think this "premium line" offering holds much more value at $47 than the "entry-level" 40' boxcar that Atlas just announced for $26...
You got that right. [/font][/size][/quote] In this case getting smarter means... owning up to the fact that a car that didn't exist prior to 1977 is off limits. There weren't even similar cars around prior to that time - the centerbeam is a post-Conrail creation and like a Conrail anything (patch or otherwise) doesn't belong in my era which officially ends 3/31/76. Like I say, I'll fudge some less obvious things like the 1977 acid tank cars. I will probably fudge an N&W C30-7 at some point just because I want one. If I buy any of the centerbeams, I might just buy one in a 90s paint scheme. I have kept enough rolling stock to make a fair representation of a mid 90s NS RoadRailer, a 230 stack train, and the 143 general manifest which featured auto parts cars, lots of kaolin tanks, and lumberbeams - both long and short. I have a couple of the Walthers big ones. I passed on the Atlas both as being too new, as well as too expensive and most of the shipment that I saw at the LHS was seriously damaged. Andy
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jun 22, 2012 16:49:56 GMT -8
I could justify buying one, or even two of these cars as it would not "break the bank" as far as my hobby budget is concerned. Be that as it may, there is another alternative that may prove to be equally rewarding, and that is to build this car from scratch.
Now, before you rebut, hear me out. There is no doubt that this is a highly desired car. But as $46 each, a ten car consist will cost close to $500! Also, previous incarnations of it have been considerably below expectations. However, consider using the new model, or the old FR/McKean car as a pattern to build a sizable fleet to fill your lumber hauling needs. Yes, the FR/McKean were reportedly dificult to assemble, but they may have been dimentionallyokay. Further, I'm certain that the ER model will be eons ahead of it in terms of quality.
Think about it though. This would be an easy car to build as it consists entirely of plates, channels, angles,and strips, all of which are available in styrene from Evergreen and Plastruct. Alignment fixtures and templates could be fashioned to ensure consistency in your construction and you could build them in batches/assembly line style. This would give you an opportunity to sharpen up the ol' modeling skill set, and have something to look forward to that you created yourself. In fact, I would wager that you could build ten of these cars with $47 worth of various styrene sheet, strips, and shapes!
Just an idea...
Donnell
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Post by shoofly on Jun 23, 2012 0:59:31 GMT -8
I'm good with my front range cars. New approach to modeling, if i cant purchase the starting point for $10 i'll scratch build it and make my own castings along the way. These prices are past out of hand! Most of the preorder stuff is messed up in some fashion so quite often it requires the same amount of work if not marginally less to get it right. China, my models and money are staying here. Sorry.
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Post by atsfan on Jun 23, 2012 6:08:38 GMT -8
I could justify buying one, or even two of these cars as it would not "break the bank" as far as my hobby budget is concerned. Be that as it may, there is another alternative that may prove to be equally rewarding, and that is to build this car from scratch.
Now, before you rebut, hear me out. There is no doubt that this is a highly desired car. But as $46 each, a ten car consist will cost close to $500! Also, previous incarnations of it have been considerably below expectations. However, consider using the new model, or the old FR/McKean car as a pattern to build a sizable fleet to fill your lumber hauling needs. Yes, the FR/McKean were reportedly dificult to assemble, but they may have been dimentionallyokay. Further, I'm certain that the ER model will be eons ahead of it in terms of quality.
Think about it though. This would be an easy car to build as it consists entirely of plates, channels, angles,and strips, all of which are available in styrene from Evergreen and Plastruct. Alignment fixtures and templates could be fashioned to ensure consistency in your construction and you could build them in batches/assembly line style. This would give you an opportunity to sharpen up the ol' modeling skill set, and have something to look forward to that you created yourself. In fact, I would wager that you could build ten of these cars with $47 worth of various styrene sheet, strips, and shapes!
Just an idea...
Donnell
I do not see these cars in fleets, usually just a car or two mixed into a freight train. If one enjoys scratch building, then it would make sense. But from simply a cost savings point, I don't see how it would add up. You still need trucks, wheels, couplers, metal detail parts, paint, and decals.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 6:54:08 GMT -8
I think Chris is saying that he will start with the $10 Front Range Center Beam cars...and go from there, Bob.
However, having built several models myself...over the years...I find that you can't even come close to the price offered by ExactRail on this car...for instance...completely assembled...and with the mixed-media parts that are precision-cut and painted...with sharp lettering. So, I agree with you Bob...in that regard.
For instance...I had several GP38-2 projects that are now all sold off...because of Athearn's announced Genesis GP38-2...The price that I am getting on them is a bargain when you consider the most I will have to do to them is install traction motor cables...paint...and weather...Athearn has done the rest for me.
The older GP projects were way above the price I am paying for the Genesis Units...and they (Genesis) require much less work...resulting in a fleet that is ready to go much faster...and allowing more hobby time to be spent on other cars and engines.
Such is the case with every ExactRail offering that I purchased...Pretty much weather...and install Sergent couplers...and you're done.
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Post by espeenut on Jun 23, 2012 10:43:17 GMT -8
...OK, the deed is done, as these are cars that qualify under my "needed" category, I bit the bullet and ordered four of them in order to qualify for free shipping to Canada. I ordered BN and UP, two of each, I already have a number of center-beams, a mix of Atlas and Walthers, painted in TTX and BN. These earlier style center beam cars will definitely fill a gap for anyone modeling the Pacific Northwest. I know I was one of those who made it evident that I wasn't happy with the new way of doing business, I'm still not, and even though I have put in an order for these four cars, I still prefer to look at them and make sure everything is in good condition before paying. Let me give you a prime example of what can occur by using the Atlas center beam car. When these were first announced I put my name down as wanting some, when they arrived I went to the store and took a look, things didn't appear to be right so I pulled them out of the box and it was quite evident the frames were warped and parts were broken off. I didn't buy any with warped frames and I assume they were returned by the retailer. I certainly hope that the QC for ExacRail's product line is top notch to ensure they aren't going to have a lot of items returned because of inadequate construction or packaging...
cheers,
Lorne Miller
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Post by fr8kar on Jun 23, 2012 10:43:41 GMT -8
I built one FRP centerbeam and cut down one Walthers centerbeam. Thankfully I will never have to fight through either project again.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 23, 2012 12:21:44 GMT -8
I do not see these cars in fleets, usually just a car or two mixed into a freight train. Which is why I could get by with just a small number but I do want to have a few. My ideal minimum will be 2 BN, 1 MILW, 1 WP, but realistically it will start out with a couple and then take stock on what comes next - I have other items I want to collect but take it all one month at a time. Because of the cost, there will be a few who may find scratch building or building the FR/McKean kit still an option. I have a BN McKean opera kit and I may still keep it and get an army of files out to see if I can make the parts fit!
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jun 23, 2012 13:18:55 GMT -8
Well that's just it, Thomas. Your end goal and your individual needs would determine if this route would work for you. Personally, I don't need the car as I've decided to focus mainly on passenger equipment. I do have a grain train, and have started building a modern UP rock train. I also have enough cars for one general manifest train, but I won't go much beyond that.
As for modeling though, this would be a perfect opportunity to test you skills as a model builder.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2012 20:58:23 GMT -8
I agree 100%. In fact, those McKean kits can be had at train shows for $4-$10 each.
There was a few 63' cars at St. Louis' Boeing Show last March, actually. But we're talking about a kit that needs some work to make it right...so I passed. I figured...Meh...no need for additional projects right now!!
I'm in the same boat...I'll most likely get just two cars...just to have a couple of top end center beams...for local service to a lumber yard on the Sub. The thing I am getting at with regard to the prices...I don't have to buy 24 center beams...2-4 will suffice for me...and with what I am modeling...I would simply use other flat cars for lumber delivery...but with this "niche" model in the fold now...I'll just use it. Spending time on GP15-1's personally!!! ;D
I will purchase older kits like Intermountain undecs and upgrade them from time to time...but like you, the freight car fleet is getting pretty much complete. I need a ton of MP quad hoppers really bad!!
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Post by riogrande on Jun 24, 2012 5:38:56 GMT -8
There was a few 63' cars at St. Louis' Boeing Show last March, actually. But we're talking about a kit that needs some work to make it right...so I passed. I figured...Meh...no need for additional projects right now!! That is how most modelers are these days, they already have enough projects waiting to get worked on that we just don't want to add to that, so we tend to avoid buying kits anymore for that reason. There is a clamor on forums asking for kits and lamenting the lack of new kits coming to market, but one only has to go to a train show to realize there are still plenty of kits available for anyone who needs or wants them. Like most in the hobby for years, I have enough kits stored to satisfy that craving (maybe 10 Intermountain and P2K kits and 15-20 Accurail/Walthers/Athearn. I can't remember the last kit I bought - it's been some years. Two of the funkier unbuilt kits I still have include the McKean BN centerbeam & Custom Rail tri-level autorack. Same, although anyone needing long strings of the 63' centerbeams have always had it hard having to make the FR/McKean car work in numbers or now, the simple high cost. Lumber is a big part of what D&RGW hauled; all you have to do is look at photo's of general merchandise freight trains and you'll see lots of lumber loaded flat cars, bulkhead flat cars, and in later years the 63 and 72' center beams and double door lumber box cars from the Pacific Northwest. Were the old Walthers 100-ton quad hoppers a good match for the MoPac?
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Post by drolsen on Jun 24, 2012 8:09:12 GMT -8
That is how most modelers are these days, they already have enough projects waiting to get worked on that we just don't want to add to that, so we tend to avoid buying kits anymore for that reason. There is a clamor on forums asking for kits and lamenting the lack of new kits coming to market, but one only has to go to a train show to realize there are still plenty of kits available for anyone who needs or wants them. The only kits that I want to continue to see are undecorated kit versions of new releases, like Atlas, Tangent, ExactRail, Intermountain, and Athearn (in their initial run, at least) continue to offer. I'm sure I mentioned this on the old Atlas Frum, but my modeling philosophy is generally to buy RTR models if they accurately represent a prototype I need, and save all my kitbashing / kit building for prototypes that aren't available in model form. For example, I want to model some of CSX's 50' Berwick box cars with wafflesides, so I'm starting with undecorated kits and adding waffles (a very time consuming process), but I ordered some of Intermountain's RTR CSX PS 5277 box cars recently, because they're correct without modifications. In some cases, I don't like a factory CSX paint job, or I want to replace the doors, so I figure I'll start with an undecorated model anyway, but when it comes to non-CSX models, I buy RTR so I can save my modeling time for those unique CSX prototypes that I want to kitbash. The Walthers quads are a good match for D&RGW's hoppers earlier quads with the stiffeners on the top chord, but not for MoPac: D&RGW 16466 (the Walthers model): drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1831817MP 589486: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1834749Note the much "deeper" ends on the MP car in this side comparison (the D&RGW car is 3" lower, but more importantly, the slope sheets at the ends are steeper, reducing the volume to 3483 cuft compared to 3716 cuft for the MP car): D&RGW: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1831819MP: drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1834755Both cars are important prototypes and deserving of a quality model (like the Tangent UP quad). I hope we'll see both eventually. Dave
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Post by riogrande on Jun 24, 2012 8:22:51 GMT -8
[The only kits that I want to continue to see are undecorated kit versions of new releases, like Atlas, Tangent, ExactRail, Intermountain, and Athearn (in their initial run, at least) continue to offer. I'm sure I mentioned this on the old Atlas Frum, but my modeling philosophy is generally to buy RTR models if they accurately represent a prototype I need, and save all my kitbashing / kit building for prototypes that aren't available in model form. While I don't kitbash or paint much, your justification for kits as you listed makes total sense. Hopefully manufacturers will be able to justify offering undec kits of RTR models and keep it up! That it was, which is why I made sure I got on the band wagon early and collected all the number 6-car sets and a bunch of duplicates totalling a modest 36 D&RGW quads. I wish Walthers or someone would offer the same quad without the stiffeners because D&RGW owned more of those. There were alot of variations of the quad unfortunately. Now that you jogged my memory, there was an article in Model Railroading about the Walthers quads comparing it to various prototypes including quads which were similar like your MoPac cars but pointing out the differences such as the slope/ends etc, and I think it had the UP and MoPacs as examples with steeper and more shallow end slopes. I would like to have some of the Tangent brown UP quads as those did run on Rio Grande rails as part of some coal trains, Utah RR and others IIRC. I do have a set of 3 RSD4/5's to pull such a train but no coal cars at present. I'll have to hunt some down eventually if I can manage it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2012 10:55:09 GMT -8
As Dave explained...the MP quads are indeed a different car than what Walthers offered. Yep...same here...I am just going to wait and see if this car is coming soon...I think (like Dave) that we'll eventually see them.
FWIW...I am going to up the Center Beam order to 6 cars...3 BN and 3 UP.
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Post by shoofly on Jun 28, 2012 0:46:34 GMT -8
But from simply a cost savings point, I don't see how it would add up. You still need trucks, wheels, couplers, metal detail parts, paint, and decals. For the record, I'm going to build the NOKL and DOMTAR versions of these cars. Not available as RTR. Even so, if i started from a new ER RTR, i'd replace the ER Trucks with athearn genesis trucks (don't really like the ER trucks IMHO) CORRECT lower shelf couplers, replace fragile plastic brake rigging and other delicate components including stirrups, strip and repaint models (repaint necessary for my projects), decals, weathering. I'd have to do the same upgrades to a $60 freight car as i would a $10 kit...the savings are REAL and mine'll be made in the USA In the old forum I remember Andy stated that he wasn't interested in the Athearn GP9 because he acquired all the components necessary to build up the LL P2K versions, just needed to get around to the project. I'm in the same boat with these cars. I have everything i need, the Front Range kit ( which i NEVER had ANY assembly problems, i have one car that fell right together and the parts perfectly press fitted together when i was test fitting) the trucks, couplers, detail parts, and decals. I'm working on the DOMTAR version decals now. They will be available in a few months. But i have everything i need to complete the project right here, on hand. It makes zero sense to sell what I have at half what i paid for and accrue a bigger loss and use the ER Model in my case. Adding that loss into the total cost of building the model i'd approach $100 per car. Suddenly building those blue box GP38-2s and SD40T-2s makes more sense...I have everything I need and I can roll my own with better parts then the warmed over tunnel motor (with rear light package bracket mounted waaaay too high out of the box). The 38-2 i almost went for but i already built my own extended range dynamics and rebuilt the pilot step wells...I'm excited to finish them and they'll have brass handrails lol Having fun MODELING again Chris P.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 28, 2012 9:41:05 GMT -8
Chris,
For sure for those having to build a model from scratch to paint, decal and replace parts, it makes total sense to start with a kit model. I'll have to dig out my only McKean opera BN centerbeam kit and try test fitting the parts after removing the spruces. It was over 20 years ago (!!!! I can't believe that much time has gone by!!!!) that I built my Western Pacific Front Range kit, but remembered I had to do some filing to get the major components - ends and top to fit well onto the opera center part. Those did fit and for some reason the bottom sills were a problem and ended up uneven and wavey. I don't know if I can get in and separate them and reglue them more tight and even. The weight looks like it would have to be hidden in a load since there wasn't room for a sheet metal between the bottom and the frame part - and the worst thing was the plastic parts with the grab irons was thick.
Now building a blue box SD40T-2 doesn't make sense to me because there were ALOT of major upgrades done to the RTR SD40T-2:
-see through roof fans -see through back air grills -correct length fuel tank -coupler mounting revised -I believe the cab windows etc was revised too.
To bring a blue box SD40T-2 up to snuff, you'd need to cut out the roof fans and replace them with an aftermarket part, cut out the rear air in-take screens and replace with an aftermarket part. Mill off/remove the metal molded on fuel tank and replace with a correct length plastic one. After that you'd need to add on many detail parts as per the prototype. I'd definitely rather go with the RTR model - at minimum use the undec version with the bag O parts.
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Post by shoofly on Jun 28, 2012 10:41:47 GMT -8
Chris, For sure for those having to build a model from scratch to paint, decal and replace parts, it makes total sense to start with a kit model. I'll have to dig out my only McKean opera BN centerbeam kit and try test fitting the parts after removing the spruces. It was over 20 years ago (!!!! I can't believe that much time has gone by!!!!) that I built my Western Pacific Front Range kit, but remembered I had to do some filing to get the major components - ends and top to fit well onto the opera center part. Those did fit and for some reason the bottom sills were a problem and ended up uneven and wavey. I don't know if I can get in and separate them and reglue them more tight and even. The weight looks like it would have to be hidden in a load since there wasn't room for a sheet metal between the bottom and the frame part - and the worst thing was the plastic parts with the grab irons was thick. For the weight I'm thinking of using this lead sheet called "heavyweights". It worked pretty well for weighing down a few flatcars that needed additional weight. I like using 10 gauge guitar strings ( comes to .010" diameter) for grab irons and such. Best of all they're sold as 30" long singles from your local guitar shop for $.75 each versus $5 for 4 or so from details associates. Being a guitar player, i'll recycle my old strings out and use them later for detailing models Now building a blue box SD40T-2 doesn't make sense to me because there were ALOT of major upgrades done to the RTR SD40T-2: -see through roof fans -see through back air grills -correct length fuel tank -coupler mounting revised -I believe the cab windows etc was revised too. To bring a blue box SD40T-2 up to snuff, you'd need to cut out the roof fans and replace them with an aftermarket part, cut out the rear air in-take screens and replace with an aftermarket part. Mill off/remove the metal molded on fuel tank and replace with a correct length plastic one. After that you'd need to add on many detail parts as per the prototype. I'd definitely rather go with the RTR model - at minimum use the undec version with the bag O parts. Not to hijack the thread too much, but the RTR models also have their share of problems. Thick paint, details in the wrong location, and often the wrong window configuration for the era i model. Yes i can fix all these things, but all the "enhancements" are rendered moot when i either substantially change or replace them outright. The only really thing i like about the RTR Model are the intake grills. I haven't found an aftermarket detail that can match that yet. As far as the coupler mounting, i replace that with a scale size pocket so RTR or BB thats going to be altered, cab gets replaced with a cannon one since the "used to be" configuration isn't available, underframe i had already specialty machined (removing the tank in favor of a plastic one can be done too) so i can use 2 front powered trucks so the rear grills are see thru. I have a ton of cannon fans on hand so the 2 top fans are no problem to replace on the dynamic hatch. Oh yeah and i got to get a new motor for the RTR since they decided to use the same luck of the draw old school athearn motor. Starting from a BB or RTR I'm doing the same modifications to both, buying the same replacement parts, same amount of labor stripping, grinding, retrofitting. The real difference is $50-$75 for the RTR version. Chris P.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2012 15:45:06 GMT -8
Chris:
Very true. I had the same idea...with my four GP38-2's that were going to have Atlas drives...Bannadaptors...custom fuel tanks...and everything else Cannon...then I thought...I'll NEVER get back to my layout if I have to build 4 more GP's like this!!!
The thing that gets' me is the ExactRail price is not all that out of line...with top of the line cars of today. Tangent's price for their superb PS 4740 is $42.95...The "new run" Atlas tanks are $40...Moloco's RBL KIT is $45...and the ExactRail Center Beam is $47....so they are too expensive? I say...you get high quality items...and they are time-savers for me, personally.
No need to go out and add more projects to an already super-tall stack!!! ;D
But, I do understand your point...I just think ExactRail's new Center Beam answers a need for the car in high quality...and that's a good thing for HO scale, IMO.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 28, 2012 17:17:00 GMT -8
And not to continue to hijack this thread either but =P Not to hijack the thread too much, but the RTR models also have their share of problems. Thick paint, details in the wrong location, and often the wrong window configuration for the era i model. Yes i can fix all these things, but all the "enhancements" are rendered moot when i either substantially change or replace them outright. We are talking SD40T-2's here right? I am only familiar with D&RGW and SP and maybe I need to look closer than I have, but the RTR paint does not look too thick, it looks great, most of the important details look also right to me (light packages, plows, roof details etc. About the only thing that was wrong detail wise that I noticed was the SP coupler lift bars have a shallow V shape on the prototype vs the model having the horizontal coupler lift bars. It is possible I am not hard core enough to have noticed the discrepancies? Not much for me to complain about as a D&RGW and SP fan. I'm just not on the same page with you on the SD40T-2's - to me Athearn as nailed these pretty well, and heck, the review of the RTR SD45T-2 on RailGoats website seemed to be mostly all praise with that model and the SD40T-2 seems to have been brought inline with it after it was upgraded.
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Post by railfan4life on Jun 29, 2012 9:00:21 GMT -8
Nice looking car that I'd like to add to my roster. But as others have mentioned, the price will keep me away from buy more than just a few or possibly keep me from buying any. On the discussion of "worth", remember that things are only worth what someone is willing to pay, and things are worth different amounts to different people. For me, I'm not sure this car is worth the price.
Just my thoughts, Kevin
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Post by nebrzephyr on Jul 4, 2012 7:11:05 GMT -8
So how does the EXACTRAIL "pre-order" process work??? Do they expect people to pay for them now??? Just wondering how this works since they went to direct sales only.
Bob
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