|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 1, 2014 11:56:25 GMT -8
Whether it's actually made by Mabuchi or some other Chinese company, it's still the same small, gutless, underpowered, junk toy motor. I've pulled motors nearly identical to them out of cheap toys and handheld fans before.
I recently set up a decently-sized "test train" to see how different units performed. Everything pulled it ok to fair, but when I put on my C630: pitiful. Barely any pulling power, the motor wasn't even spinning that fast at full power, limping the train along slowly. I had converted an identical C630 with a Kato motor according to instructions on another forum, and when I tried that one out, it gave a lot more power and torque under load, as well as being more responsive and giving better low speed performance.
When "the shop" has time, the unconverted C630 is going to go in, have the old motor ripped out, and a Kato motor transplanted.
Whatever motor it is, it's no Atlas(traditional), Kato or even Athearn gold can motor in terms of performance. I would encourage Atlas (and IMRC & Bowser) and their factory to find a better performing motor to stick in future models. The last thing I and many others want is to have to repower $200/$300 models because the factory cheapened out on the motors to save $1.50 or whatever per model.
|
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Jul 1, 2014 13:10:50 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by sd80mac on Jul 2, 2014 12:52:53 GMT -8
On the subject of motors, I have a pair of Bowser C430s that I cannot get to slip going up a hill with a heavy train. They just seem to dig in more and more. Do the motors and or decoders have some kind of special torque compensation not really seen before?
|
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 2, 2014 18:49:05 GMT -8
I put 17 cars behind it and 6 of them are gunderson well cars that are not light and the rs3 just pulled and pulled.
On the 18th car the wheels spun and slipped.. My rsd 4/5 with 12 wheel vs the 8 struggled at 14 cars and the rsd has the kato Chinese knock off motor.. Yes they weight the same but its a tsunami vs the esu it might of not been a fair test but that all I got to workf with.
But as I see minds have been made up and not even god himself can convince otherwise lol..
|
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jul 2, 2014 19:55:54 GMT -8
grabbem88--
The real truth is it doesn't seem to matter what make of motor the manufacturers actually use, the folks on these forums will complain about it...Buehler, Canon, Sagami...seems some folks are just never happy.
I'm not saying that there aren't some bad ones out there, but I know at least one of the manufacturers named in this thread has used more than one motor in recent years, trying to find the best one that they can get for this application.
|
|
|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 2, 2014 21:12:26 GMT -8
I put 17 cars behind it and 6 of them are gunderson well cars that are not light and the rs3 just pulled and pulled. On the 18th car the wheels spun and slipped.. My rsd 4/5 with 12 wheel vs the 8 struggled at 14 cars and the rsd has the kato Chinese knock off motor.. Yes they weight the same but its a tsunami vs the esu it might of not been a fair test but that all I got to workf with. But as I see minds have been made up and not even god himself can convince otherwise lol.. It'll move itself around and a small-ish sized train no doubt... But try 30 and get back to us, because the motor in my C630 wasn't doing so hot while the others (Atlas C424's, Atlas GP7, P2K GP9's, the aforementioned repowered "Katowser" C630) were  Most were lighter by a few ounces too (~14.6oz for the P2K GP9 and Atlas C424's, vs 17.70oz for the stock Bowser) On the subject of motors, I have a pair of Bowser C430s that I cannot get to slip going up a hill with a heavy train. They just seem to dig in more and more. Do the motors and or decoders have some kind of special torque compensation not really seen before? Sounds like my C630 - weak motor. With a heavy train and full throttle, the unit(s) will slow down and the wheels will keep turning (in some cases spinning slowly), but there's not a lot of power from the motor being given to them compared to other units that have more than enough power to spin the wheels with ease, or keep the train moving at a fast clip even with wheelslip. |
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 3, 2014 5:40:58 GMT -8
30 cars hmm show me any rs3 that can do that heck show me a real rs3 that can do that. The 5 yr stint I did 2 with Loram and 3 with bnsf here in st.louis I never seen anything like that and I seem some pretty awesome pulls..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 6:36:57 GMT -8
The real truth is it doesn't seem to matter what make of motor the manufacturers actually use, the folks on these forums will complain about it...Buehler, Canon, Sagami...seems some folks are just never happy. And YOU are always Mr. Sunshine? Pot meet Kettle, Kettle meet Pot. When you spend $200 like I did on a sound Intermountain SD40-2W and it can't pull ten stinking free rolling freight cars on level track, I damn well have GOOD reason to be upset! The SD40-2W had the junk motor coupled with horrendous assembly by the factory and parts that didn't fit properly. At that point, I was sure as heck not going to be blowing kisses Intermountain's way. IF anyone thinks I or anyone else should shut up and not tell others about our very negative and EXPENSIVE experiences with a model is not facing reality. One of the good things about forums like this, it helps to inform others when things are not going well and maybe it will help someone else from being highly disappointed. I'm not saying that there aren't some bad ones out there, but I know at least one of the manufacturers named in this thread has used more than one motor in recent years, trying to find the best one that they can get for this application. People stepped on Fast14's toes by mentioning Bowser in something less than glowing light..... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 6:41:19 GMT -8
30 cars hmm show me any rs3 that can do that heck show me a real rs3 that can do that. The 5 yr stint I did 2 with Loram and 3 with bnsf here in st.louis I never seen anything like that and I seem some pretty awesome pulls.. A real RS-3 should be able to pull 30 40' boxcars on level track most of the time. In the real world a lot of factors enter into what a unit can and can not do. The biggest is the human behind the levers in the cab. |
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 3, 2014 7:24:26 GMT -8
Never moved many box units. All coal hydrate and a crap load of gunderson's but I will say our switchers had balls but safety boss didn't like hero's or people who flexed there equipment. When I grandpa still worked for Peabody he said that cheap a$$ company never fixed anything..
Back to topic. I am ticked that the motor isn't the same from before but why would Herman tell me it's not a mabuchi?? All motors are from china these days... I just wish faulhaber made a can motor cheap enough for the likes of Athearn Atlas etc
Yes kato has there tiny coreless truck motors but the noise stinks but tolerable..
I'm so used to swapping motors at this point I guess I overlook what really is being voiced... Reality this hobby has gotten away from build it kits and by golly if they charge $300.00 bucks I should not have to touch other than the volume... Right? Right. Moving on
|
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jul 3, 2014 8:05:01 GMT -8
Tommy-Trudi-Naomi--
I specifically said that there are some bad motors out there.
How do we know you didn't just get one bad Intermountain unit?
I've bought engines from other manufacturers, not Intermountain, that had wildly different motor performance from what was supposed to be the exact same production run. One had to have the motor replaced (after it melted the body). The others were fine. With some manufacturers, I sometimes can't get two engines of the same model to run together, either.
Re: Pot-kettle-- I honestly can't remember any motor that somebody on these forums hasn't commented negatively about, with the possible exception of whatever Kato once used.
|
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 3, 2014 8:21:36 GMT -8
Where do you work out of?? We were only aloud to shift strings of 20 at a time.
|
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 3, 2014 8:46:54 GMT -8
I'm not going argue but that is stupid pulling 60 cars with a rs3 your speed will have to be cut down below hot rail speeds then add 1.25% grade decline your speed will have to be reduced half of your current speed then that's not putting weather. Visibility into account..
Man you guys just love to argue to the extreme 4th power
When you have 20 slurry cars (liquid lime concentrate) literaly take over from weight shift in the rain because you been up 31 hrs and got careless then you can pull 100 cars all day long... Sorry I know they pull whatever you throw at it yes I agree with that but common sense is king here.. If I was in Nebraska I can see this happening but in city limits and highly populated areas we just didn't do it and I'm sure those families appreciated it very much
|
|
|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 3, 2014 9:04:52 GMT -8
I'm not going argue but that is stupid pulling 60 cars with a rs3 your speed will have to be cut down below hot rail speeds then add 1.25% grade decline your speed will have to be reduced half of your current speed then that's not putting weather. Visibility into account.. Man you guys just love to argue to the extreme 4th power It's you who seems to argue to the extreme. Stop rambling on and read what was actually posted: Any 4-axle, 110+ ton plus unit should easily pull 50-60 cars (75% loads, mix of 70 & 100-ton cars) on level track. A GP40-2 would switch 60 car cuts on a slight (0.25%?) grade, even a NW2 would do 50 cars. And RS-3 should pull 60 cars on dry, level track.On dry, level track. Basically under ideal conditions is what was stated. No hot rail, or grades, or weather or visiblity, or with 2/4 traction motors working, or super-heavy loads. I'm so used to swapping motors at this point I guess I overlook what really is being voiced... Reality this hobby has gotten away from build it kits and by golly if they charge $300.00 bucks I should not have to touch other than the volume... Right? Right. Moving on You pay $40 for an Athearn BB GP38-2 NIB, your expectations probably aren't going to be very high in terms of quality, detail, and running smoothness. You pay $300 for a sound-equipped DCC super detailed model, you don't want to rip that thing apart to replace a junk motor, or replace the decoder if it self-destructs due to a short circuit or poor wiring, or have to send the model back because someone got glue fingerprints all over the shell during assembly. |
|
|
|
Post by sd80mac on Jul 3, 2014 9:15:53 GMT -8
I put 17 cars behind it and 6 of them are gunderson well cars that are not light and the rs3 just pulled and pulled. On the 18th car the wheels spun and slipped.. My rsd 4/5 with 12 wheel vs the 8 struggled at 14 cars and the rsd has the kato Chinese knock off motor.. Yes they weight the same but its a tsunami vs the esu it might of not been a fair test but that all I got to workf with. But as I see minds have been made up and not even god himself can convince otherwise lol.. It'll move itself around and a small-ish sized train no doubt... But try 30 and get back to us, because the motor in my C630 wasn't doing so hot while the others (Atlas C424's, Atlas GP7, P2K GP9's, the aforementioned repowered "Katowser" C630) were Most were lighter by a few ounces too (~14.6oz for the P2K GP9 and Atlas C424's, vs 17.70oz for the stock Bowser) On the subject of motors, I have a pair of Bowser C430s that I cannot get to slip going up a hill with a heavy train. They just seem to dig in more and more. Do the motors and or decoders have some kind of special torque compensation not really seen before? Sounds like my C630 - weak motor. With a heavy train and full throttle, the unit(s) will slow down and the wheels will keep turning (in some cases spinning slowly), but there's not a lot of power from the motor being given to them compared to other units that have more than enough power to spin the wheels with ease, or keep the train moving at a fast clip even with wheelslip. "weak" motor? I haven't gotten those things to stall yet, they're beasts! |
|
|
|
Post by 12bridge on Jul 3, 2014 9:53:19 GMT -8
I agree with 80 here, having seen it in person. The new Bowser C430s, if its the motor, or the combination of Locsound, but getting them to stall is almost impossible, and they will not slip under a load. There must be something going on that keeps slippage to a minimum, slow down, yes, slip, no.
|
|
|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 3, 2014 10:25:28 GMT -8
I agree with 80 here, having seen it in person. The new Bowser C430s, if its the motor, or the combination of Locsound, but getting them to stall is almost impossible, and they will not slip under a load. There must be something going on that keeps slippage to a minimum, slow down, yes, slip, no. "Weak" as in the motor doesn't have enough power to slip or spin the wheels as fast as other models. |
|
|
|
Post by 12bridge on Jul 3, 2014 10:32:35 GMT -8
They sure have no problem pulling a long train at the club with decent grades..
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2014 12:02:53 GMT -8
How do we know you didn't just get one bad Intermountain unit? Read this and the old Atlas forum and I am just one of the choir that have been burned by the Intermountain SD40-2W with its gutless pea sized motor, poor assembly and ill fitting parts. Athearn has put some good motors in some of its models. The RTR SW1000/1500 is a sweet little piece of machinery. Other motors not so much, like what was used in the early production Genesis F-units. Kato is the benchmark of what a motor SHOULD BE in a $300 MSRP model. Atlas motors of "pre-meltdown" production were stellar. Now with a new factory, it ain't the same. My personal experience with Intermountain and their F7's and FP7's was more neutral than really positive. BLI, I haven't formed an opinion. Proto 2000 during the Life Like years was okay, surely not a Kato but better than the Athearn "gold standard". My Bowser U25B had a decent drive train. The assembly of the model, paint, sound installation and LED's were not well executed. A lot of the motor problems can be traced to availability and I suspect cost. For all the flak thrown at the Athearn "gold standard", at least it has some torque to pull a train. |
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jul 3, 2014 14:16:39 GMT -8
Yes, I have not always been happy with Intermountain diesels, and certainly there were some unfavorable reviews of the new one.
Today, with the decoders, it's hard for me to tell if the real problem is with the motor or the decoder. In BLI's case, it's clearly their Paragon 2 sound decoder that sucks the life (and speed) out of those engines.
As for Atlas "pre-meltdown" motors, when did the meltdowns occur? I've owned many Atlas engines and had the least problems with Atlas as compared to anybody's diesels. (Caveat--I've not owned too many vintage Katos--when they were popular I was playing with OMI brass).
Since I don't try to pull 60 cars with one unit, apparently I don't experience the same problems as others.
So are you saying all the new Atlas engines have bad motors? and since when?
|
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 4, 2014 11:03:25 GMT -8
I'm not sure when atlas had a motor melt down but my 8-40cw is the blackish motor and every singe silver and trainmans included but this atlas classic is the first motor change I seen..
Does these bowser/IM motors smooth on one side and raised ribbed slots on one side?
|
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Jul 4, 2014 12:50:03 GMT -8
 Bowser C630 with sound. |
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 4, 2014 13:04:44 GMT -8
Thanks
I'm going to take pics when I ever get home the housing case I could have sworn was cast/pot metal looking
What my gripe is why put a motor in that you can't even rebuild..
Atleast athearns are rebuildable and truthfully the other atlas motor was pretty decent.
|
|
|
|
Post by grabbem88 on Jul 4, 2014 13:06:48 GMT -8
Forgot to ask but is that a mabuchi motor??
I wonder if atlas will give us a straight answer when asked
|
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Jul 4, 2014 15:04:12 GMT -8
Forgot to ask but is that a mabuchi motor?? I wonder if atlas will give us a straight answer when asked That IS a Mabuchi. The last generation of Atlas motors were pretty decent. I hate to see them abandoned. Dave |
|
|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 4, 2014 18:11:27 GMT -8
Welcome to Motor 101: Know Your Motors. The Bowser was already posted by carrman... Current Atlas RS3 drive with new motor (as someone posted earlier) Note, one side is smooth, the other side (may not be pictured) has two slots/vents/indents, likely part of the magnet retaining mechanism:  IMRC SD40-2W (motor covered with some fuzz on the side, as some Bowser C630M's have too. Photo from Jim Rinker's site)  All of the above plus the Bowser motor are the same. All three companies use the same Chinese manufacturer, who likely sources one single motor. Whether it be from Mabuchi, or a Chinese company making a clone of it (the one I removed from my C630 has no lettering or logos printed or stamped on it). Toy slot car motors. Ignore the top one, the lower one is the Mabuchi. While not identical, it probably wouldn't be hard to spec one with dual output shafts, or a clone from a Chinese company.  And below is the former Atlas "good" motor in a C424 (basically a Kato HM5 clone, image from TCSDCC.com):  |
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jul 4, 2014 21:15:27 GMT -8
 This is the motor in Atlas 10000501, Trainman GP39-2 ATSF #3613, which allegedly came in about May, 2011. This is the newest Atlas unit of any model that I currently have on hand, and it seems to run well, but won't pull 60 cars for me. Any idea whose motor is this? Other side image was too big to post, and also had the same four indentations in the black motor casing. Sorry for poor focus image. |
|
|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 4, 2014 23:49:22 GMT -8
View AttachmentThis is the motor in Atlas 10000501, Trainman GP39-2 ATSF #3613, which allegedly came in about May, 2011. This is the newest Atlas unit of any model that I currently have on hand, and it seems to run well, but won't pull 60 cars for me. Any idea whose motor is this? Other side image was too big to post, and also had the same four indentations in the black motor casing. Sorry for poor focus image. Traditional (good) Atlas motor before the switch. The can/casing may have changed slightly with those indents added over time compared to the Atlas C424 drive above. Atlas motor performance for those is usually great to excellent. Granted, there are limitations as to how many cars a model locomotive can pull compared to the real thing. The real pulling capabilities won't exactly scale down to model form. A 60 car train on straight level track would take up a lot of layout room, and more than likely snake around a few curves and minor grades adding resistance. Some cars might be less free-rolling than others, some heavier, some lighter. Throw model design issues such as weight (or lack thereof), space constraints and space needed for sound decoders and speakers into the picture, and a model might only be able to pull half what the real thing can under ideal conditions. Then you have the can of worms that is horsepower. In real life, sure, an S3 or SW9 may be able to lug 50 cars around the yard at slow speeds, but they won't be able to hustle them at 50mph+ track speeds without more units added. |
|
|
|
Post by thb401 on Jul 5, 2014 0:37:45 GMT -8
On the subject of motors, I have a pair of Bowser C430s that I cannot get to slip going up a hill with a heavy train. They just seem to dig in more and more. Do the motors and or decoders have some kind of special torque compensation not really seen before? Probably the ALCO high-adhesion truck?  Bill |
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jul 5, 2014 6:39:19 GMT -8
Thank you CP4097west.
My maximum grade is a little less than 0.5% but it is long enough that entire trains can fit on it with room to spare. Since I apply Atlas ConductaLube (which does evaporate) to the rails to keep track dirt to a minimum, anybody's diesels start to slip at somewhere between 15 and 20 cars depending upon how dry the rail is, so at 15 cars, I generally start adding more units, because just before they really start to spin, they just slow down on the grade relative to the rest of the layout.
Also, my freight cars are a mix from most manufacturers, and some roll like pigs because I haven't done anything to address poor journals other than lubricate the axles, and some manufacturers "free rolling trucks" are actually far from that. None of my rolling stock is currently Kadee...it's slightly "more modern" than most of what they offer. So 15 or 20 cars on my layout have considerable rolling friction drag relative to somebody else's who may have been properly doctored. Since I'm not running supersize freight trains, the poor rolling is not such a big deal to me.
The best pulling engines I've had were the MTH and Intermountain big modern beasties, which in the end were just too new for my tastes, so were sold. Being heavy and big, they pulled like nobody's business compared to the smaller-size, lightweight Atlas units. (I just have not owned any of the Athearn AC's, etc. to be able to compare.)
|
|
Most were lighter by a few ounces too (~14.6oz for the P2K GP9 and Atlas C424's, vs 17.70oz for the stock Bowser)
