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Post by carrman on Jul 5, 2014 17:45:04 GMT -8
 Found this pic on MRH's website. Plainly shows the cheapo motor. |
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Post by grabbem88 on Jul 5, 2014 19:25:02 GMT -8
So how are you basing this as a cheap motor?
Have you done a load test? draw test?
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Post by carrman on Jul 6, 2014 6:48:29 GMT -8
Have you not been paying attention that this is the same motor that is in the Bowser and IM units?
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Post by grabbem88 on Jul 6, 2014 8:23:42 GMT -8
Then why did Herman of esu loksound no it's not and atlas has nothing to do with mabuchi.
I mean come on he has nothing to gain or lose to say either cause he has no choice in what atlas uses as a motor..
Just like proto 2000 and athearn motors the early stuff
They look like chicken smell like it and taste like it but they were not.
Windings were different shafts and armeture were all different
I'm in denial I guess cause atlas used kato and a few other higher end motors just to cheap out when competition is getting tuff
We all look at the whole picture... detail motor drive prototype and if it fits your layout. When one of them gets botched we look at the next competitor..
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Post by carrman on Jul 6, 2014 8:55:49 GMT -8
And if he's not the one supplying the motor, who's to say he's being given all the facts??? Atlas HAD a good motor, and they look to be leaving it behind. I for one will no longer support them with purchases if they continue using this motor, I'll just shop new old stock. This is a cheapening of their product line. And yes, I've let Atlas know directly.
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Post by grabbem88 on Jul 6, 2014 9:44:14 GMT -8
This just sucks cause the only manufacture is buy from brand new is kato and I'm still on the fence with those coreless truck motors. They look like a n scale motor on top
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Post by carrman on Jul 6, 2014 12:10:16 GMT -8
Those coreless make me nervous too!
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Post by grabbem88 on Jul 6, 2014 13:34:09 GMT -8
Those coreless make me nervous too! On my p42 loksound I had to slow the top speed down to kill the hum or motor zing if that's what it was and we all can scoff at slowing down an Amtrak lol! I guess you can tell I'm a motor guy and mostly stubborn or refuse to believe atlas did such a thing especially after paying $170-220 bucks for something that better not fail motor wise Live and learn |
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Post by espeenut on Jul 7, 2014 5:43:19 GMT -8
...so Dave, I ordered one of the Bowser sound equipped Southern Pacific S12's, the version with the full light package and all proper detailing, if it has the Mabuchi in it will it still work OK for switching purposes? I won't be pulling long trains at all, just a few cars at a time...
thanks,
Lorne Miller
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Post by carrman on Jul 7, 2014 8:06:03 GMT -8
Lorne, it will probably work for you, but I'm not sure if those Baldwin switchers use the Mabuchi, or of they still are done by Ajin like they were when Stewart sold them. I've not seen under the hood of one.
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 7, 2014 8:13:06 GMT -8
Ok--here's a question I pondered this weekend:
Some criticism has been directed at Atlas (and Bowser and Intermountain) for their "choice" of motor here, but
Did anybody stop to consider the fact that in at least one case for certain (Atlas, to be specific) the manufacturer was cut off from using their former builder (Sandra Khan, apparently now part of Kader, now exclusively making Bachmann trains), and had to make other arrangements to produce all or most of their products?
Is it possible that Atlas's former motor supply was cut off completely at the same time? I do not know the circumstances of the other two manufacturers, whether or not one or both of them had been forced to switch builders as well.
How does that play into all this?
Is the "good" "older" motor merely a casualty of one manufacturer's attempt to monopolize factory production?
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Post by carrman on Jul 7, 2014 10:06:13 GMT -8
And all of that means nothing if it means we get a junk motor. Why should we have to repower $300 locomotives? Their problem with production not should translate into quality problems for the end user.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 10:57:18 GMT -8
And all of that means nothing if it means we get a junk motor. Why should we have to repower $300 locomotives? Their problem with production not should translate into quality problems for the end user. Amen..... It is up to the "manufacturers", aka Atlas, Intermountain, Bowser and the rest of the field to specify and insist on acceptable specifications. If the builder in China has some Mubachi motor or similar motor, it is up to said "manufacturers" to reject that motor as unacceptable and not to specifications. I truly believe the "manufacturers" are so over the barrel with their Chinese builders/partners, that they accept just about anything the factory can get at the "right price", in a realistic time period. To my peanut gallery eyes, I see "manufacturers" that have lost a lot of control over the product that bears their name. I would suspect they could hold out for different motor, but it could mean production would come to stand still, that is a recipe for disaster for the American company as they've already bought and paid for the models. Likewise, there may not be a better available motor in sufficient numbers for the production run. Either way, I'm inclined to see some of these models as compromises between getting them out of the door in a reasonable period of time and the need to get them sold and get a return on the investment. The bottom line is WE the buyer are the ones that end up not only paying the money for these models but also paying with decreased quality of the model. |
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 7, 2014 15:27:28 GMT -8
I have heard the "new" motors are supposed to be "better than" some of the ones used recently.
Do you really think a manufacturer would knowingly cheapen the motors or rush models with inferior motors to market just "to get a return on investment"? That would be rather un-wise.
I understand cynicism, and perhaps we've all been burned once or twice, I get that--but really??? If your view of the manufacturers is honestly that poor, then I actually feel a wee bit sorry for you.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 15:52:58 GMT -8
I have heard the "new" motors are supposed to be "better than" some of the ones used recently. Do you really think a manufacturer would knowingly cheapen the motors or rush models with inferior motors to market just "to get a return on investment"? That would be rather un-wise. I understand cynicism, and perhaps we've all been burned once or twice, I get that--but really??? If your view of the manufacturers is honestly that poor, then I actually feel a wee bit sorry for you. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid if you believe the new motors are better than the previously used motors by Atlas. Who told you the Mubachi and Mubachi clone motors were better? your bestest friends at Bowser? Yes, I do believe manufacturers have to make some hard decisions when it comes to these models. I'm sure compromises are made each and every day, when comes to availability of some parts. They can't afford to hold up the line waiting for Company B to get enough of the tried and true motors delivered for full production or some other part. I also believe many will just suck it up and chalk up a poor performing unit to "that's life in model railroading 2014!" Maybe as long as the paint is pretty and makes cool sounds, that is all that matters to some. I don't know, but when I'm forking out hundreds, I expect a "little more". You feel sorry for me? Why because I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid? Whatever the manufacturers are serving up, be it Athearn, Atlas, Intermountain, Bowser, etc., I don't like the flavor. I've had enough of these models with questionable at best quality to feel skeptical. We are not talking about a $20 blue box GP35. We are talking about playing Russian Roulette with a $200 plus model.....discounted! Is it fantastic or is it a turd? At what point do you feel after getting burned a few times, that the supply chain is playing fast and loose with the quality control? This forum has NO PROBLEM slamming Athearn time and time again, about wavy handrails, light bulbs instead of LED's, lack of ditch lights, quality control issues, MOTOR ISSUES WITH THE "GOLD STANDARD" and on and on and on. Yet, Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser give us the Mubachi special and this is not supposed to be a big deal? Why can one manufacturer get eviscerated time and again on this very forum and the others got off Scott free? ALL the manufacturers have been piling up the dirty laundry these last few years and its too darn expensive to keep giving free passes. |
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Post by carrman on Jul 7, 2014 16:37:19 GMT -8
Do you really think a manufacturer would knowingly cheapen the motors or rush models with inferior motors to market just "to get a return on investment"? Yes, yes I do. Dave |
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 7, 2014 17:19:48 GMT -8
I have heard the "new" motors are supposed to be "better than" some of the ones used recently. I don't know if you actually own any units with that motor yet, or have put them through their paces, but my one-for-one testing and comparison between a stock Bowser C630, and an identical unit with a Kato motor retrofitted, shows otherwise. The Kato and Atlas clone motors are clearly superior to the current Mabuchi or Clonebuchi. Better low speed operation, more responsive, and more power throughout the range including and especially at the top end. Doesn't matter what the car dealership tells you about the latest model year changes or doo-dads added, it all comes down to how that sucker performs on the road. This forum has NO PROBLEM slamming Athearn time and time again, about wavy handrails, light bulbs instead of LED's, lack of ditch lights, quality control issues, MOTOR ISSUES WITH THE "GOLD STANDARD" and on and on and on. Yet, Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser give us the Mubachi special and this is not supposed to be a big deal? Why can one manufacturer get eviscerated time and again on this very forum and the others got off Scott free? ALL the manufacturers have been piling up the dirty laundry these last few years and its too darn expensive to keep giving free passes. Don't forget all the ragging whenever someone brings up an MTH product or new release...but that's another can of worms entirely  |
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 7, 2014 21:06:33 GMT -8
Uh, it seems to me nobody has gotten a free pass. Imo if the box doesn't say Genesis on it, some folks will just never be happy.
I really don't want a junk motor either, but at the same time, I had really good experiences with previous production engines that had Buehler motors in them that ran exceptionally well for me--and at least a few people complained rather loudly to anyone who would listen about the Buehler motors, too. Be careful what you wish for???
I'm attempting to model Santa Fe in the late '70's and there are no MLW's or Alco's remaining to compare. They were sold in favor of Santa Fe stuff. The ones I had ran fine, but I don't run extremely heavy or long trains, so that's meaningless.
I've been buying mostly older Atlas units lately, not due to this thread, but because I'm generally the happiest with Atlas's QA/QC on the Santa Fe diesels relative to other newer Santa Fe models.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 7, 2014 23:53:46 GMT -8
Those coreless make me nervous too! On my p42 loksound I had to slow the top speed down to kill the hum or motor zing if that's what it was and we all can scoff at slowing down an Amtrak lol! I guess you can tell I'm a motor guy and mostly stubborn or refuse to believe atlas did such a thing especially after paying $170-220 bucks for something that better not fail motor wise Live and learn Interesting thread on P42 motor issues: www.cp-forum.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=670In general, a tiny motor like that has to run at high rpm and use a lot of gear reduction to get any useful power. Higher rpm's and mechanical losses in the gear train typically equates to poor longevity, unless you are using top-shelf motors, like Portescap. That would be well out of reach for anything within 99.9% of modelers budgets. www.portescap.com/products/brush-dc-motorAs for the current issue with motors, I've seen chinese subcontractors close shop and have primary contractors re-source components that were not as good, and we (mfg, not in the model rr business) were never told. Often it would go until field problems showed up. Equally, motor drive circuitry can have a dramatic impact on torque and noise. Absent product specifications for the motor and details of the drive circuitry, It's difficult to pinpoint root causes. Instead of crucifying manufacturers, it might be more productive to document problems (comparing new product to older product from the same company is useful) and communicate that back to the manufacturer. As a product designer by profession, I understand how outsourced mfg can go sideways without malice from the company. Supply chains are screwed up all over the place, and the devaluing dollar ain't helping. Improvise, adapt, overcome. |
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Post by Brakie on Jul 8, 2014 2:18:04 GMT -8
View AttachmentFound this pic on MRH's website. Plainly shows the cheapo motor. That motor may look cheap but is it? A lot of modelers calls any new motor cheap if it doesn't fit their ridiculously high "standards" and this includes the Athearn BB motor but,when confronted with the fact those cheap motors last for decades of smooth running they start mumbling about current draw,noise etc.When confronted with the newer and improved Bachmann drive they start mumbling about the lack of details or the cheap decoder. Until I see a new Atlas engine equipped with this supposedly cheap motor run I will withhold judgment. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2014 10:11:38 GMT -8
That motor may look cheap but is it? It doesn't have the torque or the smoothness of the previous motor. So yes, its cheaply constructed. A lot of modelers calls any new motor cheap if it doesn't fit their ridiculously high "standards" and this includes the Athearn BB motor but,when confronted with the fact those cheap motors last for decades of smooth running they start mumbling about current draw,noise etc.When confronted with the newer and improved Bachmann drive they start mumbling about the lack of details or the cheap decoder. Until I see a new Atlas engine equipped with this supposedly cheap motor run I will withhold judgment. Ridiculously high standards? So I assume you have ridiculously low standards? or maybe no standards? We all EXPECT something from a product we purchase. When you spend north of $200 on a model, those standards go UP. If we were looking at $20 blue box Athearn locomotives, what is and isn't acceptable is a world apart from $200 models. Is it asking too much for a six axle unit to pull ten free rolling freight cars on a level grade? Oh heck, the model(s) only cost me about $200, I'll just suck it up and put on a happy face. NOT! Myself and many many others have what amount to realistic expectations, when a model costs hundreds of dollars. What I personally don't see are any "ridiculously high standards". I see a sub par motor with little torque and power. I also see money wasted. Who the heck cares if the stupid motor will last for decades if it doesn't have enough power to get out of its own way. Longevity means nothing if it can't pull at least a little. Pretty paint, details and sound mean nothing if it can't pull. What you now have is a $200 paper weight.....a very expensive paper weight!!!! And who said anything or cares about the Botchmann drives? The discussion is about the motor used by Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser which originate at the same factory. Since Bachmann is not involved in the manufacturing or supplying of parts to the factory building the Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser line, there is no reason to mention Bachmann. Bring Bachmann into the conversation is just muddling up the thread and taking it off point. Is your name Spikre? Also, for those of us that run DCC, motors are very important in consisting, speed mapping, etc.. Even in straight DC, motors and their torque matter. |
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Post by Brakie on Jul 8, 2014 11:58:31 GMT -8
That motor may look cheap but is it? It doesn't have the torque or the smoothness of the previous motor. So yes, its cheaply constructed. A lot of modelers calls any new motor cheap if it doesn't fit their ridiculously high "standards" and this includes the Athearn BB motor but,when confronted with the fact those cheap motors last for decades of smooth running they start mumbling about current draw,noise etc.When confronted with the newer and improved Bachmann drive they start mumbling about the lack of details or the cheap decoder. Until I see a new Atlas engine equipped with this supposedly cheap motor run I will withhold judgment. Ridiculously high standards? So I assume you have ridiculously low standards? or maybe no standards? We all EXPECT something from a product we purchase. When you spend north of $200 on a model, those standards go UP. If we were looking at $20 blue box Athearn locomotives, what is and isn't acceptable is a world apart from $200 models. Is it asking too much for a six axle unit to pull ten free rolling freight cars on a level grade? Oh heck, the model(s) only cost me about $200, I'll just suck it up and put on a happy face. NOT! Myself and many many others have what amount to realistic expectations, when a model costs hundreds of dollars. What I personally don't see are any "ridiculously high standards". I see a sub par motor with little torque and power. I also see money wasted. Who the heck cares if the stupid motor will last for decades if it doesn't have enough power to get out of its own way. Longevity means nothing if it can't pull at least a little. Pretty paint, details and sound mean nothing if it can't pull. What you now have is a $200 paper weight.....a very expensive paper weight!!!! And who said anything or cares about the Botchmann drives? The discussion is about the motor used by Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser which originate at the same factory. Since Bachmann is not involved in the manufacturing or supplying of parts to the factory building the Atlas, Intermountain and Bowser line, there is no reason to mention Bachmann. Bring Bachmann into the conversation is just muddling up the thread and taking it off point. Is your name Spikre? Also, for those of us that run DCC, motors are very important in consisting, speed mapping, etc.. Even in straight DC, motors and their torque matter. Jim,Maybe you need to reread my post? Have you ran the new RS3 with the new motor? If your 6 axle unit can hardly pull 10 cars then you have issues like following RP20.1 then trying to climb a 5% grade on a curve going up a helix? Maybe a upgrade of wheel sets would help? My Athearn DCC equipped SD38 will pull 19 free rolling cars on the level..My Atlas yellow box SD35 will pull 27 on the flat. My standards is rather high but,I'm not obsessive like some claim to be. I'll judge the new Atlas motor and see how it stands. And thanks for proving my point about Bachmann's smooth drives with "cheap" motors.. Happens every time. |
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Post by carrman on Jul 8, 2014 12:29:32 GMT -8
This thread ISN'T about Bachmann. Why even bring them up?
Dave
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 8, 2014 12:31:18 GMT -8
This thread ISN'T about Bachmann. Why even bring them up? Dave Thread derailment ploy. Next we'll have people arguing the Athearn "gold can" motor is superior to the Genesis or Kato motors... |
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Post by carrman on Jul 8, 2014 12:43:18 GMT -8
You mean it's not?  ? Wow, have I ever been fooled.....;-) |
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Post by santafe49 on Jul 8, 2014 13:06:55 GMT -8
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 8, 2014 13:27:54 GMT -8
For those of us that don't Facebook, what is it? |
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Post by markfj on Jul 8, 2014 13:32:26 GMT -8
For those of us that don't Facebook, what is it? It is a photo of an Athearn Genesis repower kit for RTR models. "A little something we've been developing. A Genesis repower kit for your RTR models. So far, will be for the SD45 initially. #ATHG63839 Full announcement and details coming soon... -CP" |
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Post by alcoc430 on Jul 8, 2014 14:19:01 GMT -8
For those of us that don't Facebook, what is it? It is a photo of an Athearn Genesis repower kit for RTR models. "A little something we've been developing. A Genesis repower kit for your RTR models. So far, will be for the SD45 initially. #ATHG63839 Full announcement and details coming soon... -CP" It also includes the dcc ready board,drive shafts and motor mount. The picture of the motor is also on Athearn's Website |
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Post by Brakie on Jul 8, 2014 14:32:00 GMT -8
This thread ISN'T about Bachmann. Why even bring them up? Dave Thread derailment ploy. Next we'll have people arguing the Athearn "gold can" motor is superior to the Genesis or Kato motors... Actually it was to bring out a point about "cheap" motors that many complain about on this topic and I suspect many hasn't even seen that new motor operate.. . |
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