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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 21, 2014 19:45:05 GMT -8
Antoniofp45, Thanks for your help, the lady rep told me to go ahead and write a letter not by email and send it in. I'm not going to sorry to say, in my opinion the way they conducted them selves gives me the impression that they won't change the way the car's trucks are sitting. Or it might be too late by now. I know MTH has been trying to clean up their image in the hobby for some time now. Obviously, they are still trying, maybe not successfully.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2014 20:09:31 GMT -8
Antoniofp45, Thanks for your help, the lady rep told me to go ahead and write a letter not by email and send it in. I'm not going to sorry to say, in my opinion the way they conducted them selves gives me the impression that they won't change the way the car's trucks are sitting. Or it might be too late by now. I know MTH has been trying to clean up their image in the hobby for some time now. Obviously, they are still trying, maybe not successfully. Do you mean their reputation for suing everyone, or something else?
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 22, 2014 6:42:51 GMT -8
I know MTH has been trying to clean up their image in the hobby for some time now. Obviously, they are still trying, maybe not successfully. Do you mean their reputation for suing everyone, or something else? Suing "everyone" will leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth, especially consumers. Cleaning up your "image", and producing a good product has to be your only upside to stay in business. Bad customer service will detract from that quickly. Talking with quite a few hobbyist over the last couple of years, in store & online, and some of the comment made about MTH was more about the poor customer service & communication than that doggone DCS system. Me personally, I own a few MTH locomotives. I own a GG1 that had a problem with one of the pantographs. I called MTH and the gentleman I spoke with guided me on how to fix it and was very polite & patient. Problem solved. But I can easily imagine the conversation going differently if I didn't know how to use a screwdriver, read a schematic or how to use a soldering iron. .
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 22, 2014 18:40:18 GMT -8
Rails4DMV,
Your post seems to offer a glimmer of hope that MTH has been making an effort.
Imho, the attention-getting scenario here is MTH's response to BEDT26's discovery of an error. If MTH acknowledges the mistake or states that they were aware but that it's a cost issue, then at least the representatives are showing that an effort is being made to maintain a positive dialog with current and future customers.
Take a look at the photo that BEDT26 posted of the MTH units and zoom in on the car's end. I see a tiny gap between the shell and the anticlimber deck. I'm wondering now if the anti-climber section is part of the underframe. If so, perhaps this might explain the stock black appearance that matches the underframe. I'm just guessing here.
If the shell is easily removed then it's likely that most of us here could correct the problem with masking tape/paper, primer, and the correct shade of gray. But considering the cost of these subway cars, the mindset of most customers may be that it's not unreasonable to expect that the paint scheme would be correct from the manufacturer.
If the overseas factory has already started to produce the units than it's likely too late to correct that snafu.
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 22, 2014 19:50:47 GMT -8
Hi Antoniofp45,
I wrote this below to MTH's Facebook page this morning.
I have two concerns if I may. First on the HO R17's the trucks should be closer to the front of the car and I see why, the coupler box is a bit too big. And the other thing is that the anticlimbers should be silver like the rest of the car on the MTA Silver and Blue stripe scheme. I'm just concerned and would like to see these cars get done right.
This was their response, read below.
Mr Luciano this is just a first painted sample and we have noted the anti-climber does not follow our artwork, this will be corrected in final production. I will pass on your comments about the trucks. I do know there are often compromises that have to be made to make a model, I do not know if this is the case with this detail though. Thank you for the comments.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 22, 2014 20:25:50 GMT -8
Looks like the official notice is up on MTH's website. What I found to be of great interest is the quote, "the R-17/R-21 models will be the first of many authentically detailed subway sets to come from M.T.H. Electric Trains." I tell you what, if they do end up producing "B" Division HO RTR subway cars with all the bells & whistles (R32, R40 Slants, etc.), along with CTA subway cars and they are made correctly, they will definitely be getting my business. Now all that matters is the price.... www.mthtrains.com/news/543
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Post by BEDT26 on Jul 22, 2014 21:55:01 GMT -8
Looks like the official notice is up on MTH's website. What I found to be of great interest is the quote, "the R-17/R-21 models will be the first of many authentically detailed subway sets to come from M.T.H. Electric Trains." I tell you what, if they do end up producing "B" Division HO RTR subway cars with all the bells & whistles (R32, R40 Slants, etc.), along with CTA subway cars and they are made correctly, they will definitely be getting my business. Now all that matters is the price.... www.mthtrains.com/news/543I would love to see the R1/9's and R10's for B division. Steve Zabel photo
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Post by ambluco on Jul 23, 2014 4:59:41 GMT -8
Are the Redbirds not red enough in the photo on their site?
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 23, 2014 6:24:23 GMT -8
I saw that also, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt since they are pre-production models. I do however remember some of those cars painted over and over again to cover the graffiti and in the outcome some of those cars ended up looking deep cherry red.
As long as they don't do the white painted IRT cars that were done in the 80's during the Koch years. Those were awful!!
But if MTH also produces M7 & M8 commuter railcars in HO or the older Budd M1's....I'll have to go out and get a second job again!
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 24, 2014 5:44:00 GMT -8
Ugh! Yes, I remember the "White Birds" of the 80s! (that's what they're referred to now as that term didn't exist then) When I visited NYC in 1983, I was mind boggled when I saw the classic cars painted in white and wondered which official came up with that idiotic idea! Had to be a bureaucrat that didn't ride the trains. Imho, the MTA was issuing an open invitation to grafitti vandals. The officials might as well have stated on the media: "Hey, tag them! We've provided you with huge white canvases so you can express yourselves trash them! The city needs the extra tax revenue from the aerosol paint dealers that are going to make a big profit as you empty the store shelves this year!" Of course, tagging resumed with ferocity. In short order the white birds went from this: www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24798to this: www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?127486 As much as he was criticized, David Gunn was an answer to many New Yorker's prayers. He was the best captain that the NY MTA ever had. It was under his aggressive "no-nonsense", politically incorrect watch that the massive system cleanup took place and the nickname "Red Birds" was coined. Imho, he left a positive legacy. BEDT26. Thanks for sharing MTH's response. Good to see that, at least, your concern wasn't "blown off" and that they're fully aware of the points you brought up. Sounds like they're going to make an effort to get them right as best possible. We're already aware that, as with all of our manufacturers, some compromises have to be made. Rails4DMV, Long Island M-series cars? Those are classic stainless steel beauties! Submit your ideas to MTH and other manufacturers and encourage others with similar wish lists to do the same. As I've stated before...after hearing for years from the "usual manufacturers" that subway cars, Metroliners, and New Haven FL9s would not sell; it's breath of fresh air to see that those of us that have been asking for these models weren't so "odd" or "an isolated bunch" after all. From what I've been hearing from decent sources don't be surprised if we see a flat nosed SDP40F pop up in the future!
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 24, 2014 21:30:02 GMT -8
Ugh! Yes, I remember the "White Birds" of the 80s! (that's what they're referred to now as that term didn't exist then) When I visited NYC in 1983, I was mind boggled when I saw the classic cars painted in white and wondered which official came up with that idiotic idea! Had to be a bureaucrat that didn't ride the trains. Imho, the MTA was issuing an open invitation to grafitti vandals. The officials might as well have stated on the media: "Hey, tag them! We've provided you with huge white canvases so you can express yourselves trash them! The city needs the extra tax revenue from the aerosol paint dealers that are going to make a big profit as you empty the store shelves this year!" Of course, tagging resumed with ferocity. In short order the white birds went from this: www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?24798to this: www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?127486 As much as he was criticized, David Gunn was an answer to many New Yorker's prayers. He was the best captain that the NY MTA ever had. It was under his aggressive "no-nonsense", politically incorrect watch that the massive system cleanup took place and the nickname "Red Birds" was coined. Imho, he left a positive legacy. BEDT26. Thanks for sharing MTH's response. Good to see that, at least, your concern wasn't "blown off" and that they're fully aware of the points you brought up. Sounds like they're going to make an effort to get them right as best possible. We're already aware that, as with all of our manufacturers, some compromises have to be made. Rails4DMV, Long Island M-series cars? Those are classic stainless steel beauties! Submit your ideas to MTH and other manufacturers and encourage others with similar wish lists to do the same. As I've stated before...after hearing for years from the "usual manufacturers" that subway cars, Metroliners, and New Haven FL9s would not sell; it's breath of fresh air to see that those of us that have been asking for these models weren't so "odd" or "an isolated bunch" after all. From what I've been hearing from decent sources don't be surprised if we see a flat nosed SDP40F pop up in the future! I own 3 sets of GHB Metropolitan M1 cars that came out over a decade ago and boy, do I cherish those cars!! I think I'll fall out my chair if I see a decent SDP40F made in my life time. I'll gasp for air if I see a P30CH in plastic finally! Question to your comment. Do you think its the constant "suggestions & badgering" from modellers that's getting the manufacturers to finally listen, which is why we're getting these highly requested items? (a FL9 that's not brass & $1400, an updated Metroliner after 40 years & subway cars that are "niche" and regional, updated Amfleets) Or could it be possible the manufacturers are realizing that the market is becoming a changing age demographic? I mean, ages 12-49 who may model passenger rail, would seem more likely to model Penn Central, Amtrak, regional subway & commuter trains and today's remnants of scenic railroads.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 25, 2014 21:47:13 GMT -8
Good one. Consider posting that question in its own thread as you'd likely see a wide variety of thought provoking answers. I think that it's a topic that we don't get tired of because the "behind the scenes" factors are constantly changing.
From a business standpoint the manufacturers take a hard look at the potential sales of any requested model. I think that some "heavily" requested models(like the FL9) were repeatedly turned down because they prefer to err on the side of caution regarding potential sales.
Imho, the age/generation demographic is a factor. "Generally" just over a decade ago a good number of the 25-55 age group modelers (who wield the most hobby dollars) seemed focused on the transition era. Here we are today, and the current modelers in that age group have been echoing a strong interest in post transition era equipment (like the new Athearn SD40).
However, I firmly believe that if it were not for Rapido, we would still be waiting a few more years for a high quality FL9 (Thank you Jason)! It's been a win-win for us that manufacturers other than Walthers and Athearn have been paying close attention and have willing to take a chance and produce "regionally captive" models (although a thumbs-up to Walthers for producing the long requested Metroliner).
I find it interesting that these classic subway cars are good examples of trains that are truly "regionally captive". Models of these trains were already produced by Life Like, yet, MTH decided to take a chance and produce them with better accuracy and detailing. If MTH is willing to invest big dollars in the tooling, then there had to be a strong interest indicated from modelers, especially considering that subway modelers are a small group compared to heavy rail modelers.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 26, 2014 10:44:49 GMT -8
LOL, that's why I didn't even start a thread broaching the topic of age demographics, as it may ignite some flame wars.
Good points you made. I do wonder if and when there will be a time in the future when you'll walk into a LHS and ask the clerk to see some PRR related items and the response will be, "What is a PRR?"
Or better yet, (in my dreams) ask the LHS clerk for some RTR SEPTA Silverliners & a Metro North P32ACDM, the response would be "Yeah, we have plenty of those in stock for those roads, what would you like to see?"
I know, wishful thinking....
It's a shame that manufacturers would rather play it "safe" and produce the same locomotive (ES44AC, Dash 9, SD40-2, etc.) made by other manufacturers at different price points, than take a chance and do something new.
I can't say that I blame them because after 2008, dollars & budgets are still tight and a poorly made model and word of mouth on the internet, could easily break a company in this new "spend wisely" economy.
After all, repeat runs of locomotives & passenger cars do pay the bills, but I like to believe that some of the extra dollars does go to highly requested "regional & niche" items.
It would be interesting within the next 5 years to see what else "regionally" will be released, as I am someone who models passenger trains, specifically the NE.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 27, 2014 18:49:37 GMT -8
I don't think that a flame war would erupt as long as the OP opens the thread in a manner that invites thoughtful discussion . Good point regarding our "Spend Wise" economy. Imho, the manufacturers will likely pay attention to sales of the Rapido FL9 and the MTH IRT subway cars as both are "Regionally captive" models. Only my thought but in my humble opinion both models will sell. Rapido has a well earned reputation for high quality. The Osgood Bradley coaches were beautifully rendered and it was a good strategy to produce the appropriate locomotive for the New Haven version. The MTH classic IRT subway cars (from the photos) are very attractive and appear to be closer to the prototypes than the Life Like Proto 1000 versions. I admit to having been a harsh critic of MTH in the past. MTH seems to be making an effort to improve its public relations in the HO market as well as customer service, which if sincere is a win-win for us. Although Paul Cutler disagreed with me on another thread, I still think that if anyone were to seriously consider producing an HO New Haven EP5, it would be MTH. They've already produced O-scale versions of the NY subway cars and the NH EP5. So, at least, familiarity would be in their favor. If Mike Wolf considers an EP5, I STRONGLY HOPE that he would consult with the NHRHTA for assistance in producing a prototypical quality model. If sales for the FL9 and IRT units are good then we may see more "obscure", unusual, or regionally captive locomotives produced that have been requested for a number of years (hopefully).
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 27, 2014 20:31:59 GMT -8
Antonio, The reason the FL9 has been on hold before Rapido's announcement is due to River Point's announced plans that were not able to hit the market. For a loco that is unique and regional, it's not easy to convince people to take a chance on it (to the tune of a lot of money) when someone out there is saying "Coming Soon!" If you asked Athearn (which I did) why not an FL9 after their FP7 project, the reply was, "Isn't someone else already doing that?" River Point had his exclusive window to get the FL9 done for years, and he's just not been able to make it work. So here comes the Rapido version instead. I feel bad for Ron at RPS. What makes you think MTH has done anything to improve their PR or customer service? Was it the kerfluffle here back in November that proved MTH will not honor any product warranty unless it was bought from an authorized MTH dealer? Or their outright lying "Myth vs. Fact" advertisement in the March 2014 Model Railroader where they couldn't even get our scale (1/86th!) right? I'd hate to think what they'd be like if they weren't trying to improve their reputation in HO scale.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 28, 2014 5:52:18 GMT -8
Hello Paul,
You made me aware of the RPS situation a while back. RPS's owner kindly corresponded with me, via email, back in 2011 because I had been submitting suggestions for the "stainless steel" finish on the proposed NH corrugated PS units. He shared that he was encountering problems with the manufacturers overseas.
My comment regarding the FL9 was in reference to that, long before RPS became involved, many of us had been asking for a quality plastic RTR FL9 since the 1990s. You probably remember the hopes that were stirred up years back when Bachmann produced the E33 (EF-4) in its Spectrum line, which was a pleasant surprise to northeastern modelers. Of course we continued hoping for the FL9.
As for my opinion on MTH? It's not "concrete" since opinions vary widely. I've read a mix of good and bad comments on several forums regarding MTH's products and service. That seemed to be an improvement as before 2012 nearly all of the comments that I read regarding MTH were negative, lol! I had been hoping that MTH was making a genuine effort to improve its image with HO scale modelers.
Could you elaborate on the "Myth vs Fact" info that you referred to?
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 28, 2014 7:52:37 GMT -8
I think the RPS FL9 project started more than three years ago, but don't ask me when, exactly. Ron's been cooking the 8600's for far longer than that I know. The MTH "Myth vs. Fact" ad ran in the March '14 MR, page 3. The ad starts with, "MTH Myth Busters: Do M.T.H. HO Trains Really Do More? It's not just a slogan, M.T.H. Trains Do More. Don't let myths cloud your opinion." It then lists 6 "myths" and proceeds to "debunk" them. Myth #1: M.T.H. locomotives have features that can't be accessed with my DCC controller. Myth #2: M.T.H. HO locomotive couplers don't work well with other manufacturer's locomotives and car couplers. Myth #3: When operated in analog mode, M.T.H. engines don't run very fast. Myth #4: It's not possible to match the speed of my M.T.H. locomotives with those of other manufacturers. Myth #5: Proto-Sound 3.0 Doesn't Sound As Good Under DCC As It Does Under DCS Control Myth #6: I can't consist my M.T.H. locomotives with other HO locomotives. I'm not going to type the entire ad copy here, so here are my assessments of their "facts" in true Mythbusters fashion. 1). Confirmed - There are features in MTH pre-2011 locos that can't be accessed with DCC controllers, and to change that you'd need an MTH HO DCS system (not a DCC system) to update your older locos to allow for function remapping. MTH also states that there are more functions in DCS mode than in DCC mode, so the myth is also true for these later locos as well. 2). Confirmed - With MTH's operating Proto-Couplers, one really has to smash into another coupler in order to get it to latch. And if you're trying to couple up to a single free rolling car gently, it's not going to work too well. MTH's excuse is that you can replace their Proto-Coupler with a real Kadee that's included...which isn't busting the myth, it actually confirms it. 3). Confirmed - This is the biggie. This one was so bad that the NMRA actually sent a letter asking MTH to explain themselves over this. cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/226841.aspx This is the ad copy here: "FACT: When operated by an NMRA mandated 16 volt analog power supply, M.T.H. Proto-Sound 3.0 locomotives are capable of attaining their prototypical top-end speed. Owners of older 12 volt power supplies found in 1980's era HO train sets need to remember that today's locomotives, regardless of manufacturer, have a lot more features and consume more power than engines produced 30 years ago. Sound, smoke, speed control, prototypical lighting and operating couplers all require more track power - which is why the NMRA increased their power supply standard a decade ago to 16 volts." Most everything above is a lie. The NMRA does not mandate a 16 vdc power supply, for one thing. Here is the NMRA's letter to MTH: "Would you kindly provide the reference in the NMRA Standards that state a mandated 16 volt analog power supply. Your Ad seems to suggest that NMRA considers anything less than 16 volts is unacceptable. I find RP-9, dated May 1973 stating “Direct current power supplies and packs for propulsion use shall produce between 12 and 16 volts while delivering rated current.” This Recommended Practice continues to state our position and recommendations for power supplies to run current locomotives. Please realize that Recommended Practices are not “mandated” standards but are suggestions for good practice. Didrik Voss, MMR Manager, S&C Dept. NMRA" Note that the NMRA hasn't touched RP-9 for 40 years and S-9 for 30 years (not a decade ago as claimed by MTH). Also, 30 years ago, the typical HO Athearn loco pulled 1/2 an amp or more. How many amps are modern locos pulling, especially those without sound? They said, "regardless of manufacturer", which means every loco made today, including those without sound. 4). Plausible - If only because they claim that in 2014, they now offer programmable speed curve variables. Of course, you need your own MTH HO DCS system in order to upgrade anything you bought from MTH before 2013. But the best part here is this quote, "...is designed to allow the locomotive to run at scale (1/86th) speeds." Um, HO scale is 1/87.1, or 3.5mm to the foot. 5). Busted - The sound files are the same, so quality isn't affected. This is true. 6). Plausible - Again, because you need the HO MTH DCS system to upgrade pre-2011 locos to get Advanced Consisting. They, of course, say that they could always MU to other engines with "standard consisting". There is no "standard consisting". There's Basic (which anyone can use), Universal (Digitrax) and Advanced (everyone else). Advanced consisting is programmed into the decoder, Universal consisting is programmed into the "brain", and Basic consisting is programming all your locos to the same number and using CV29 to reverse them if needed. MTH did themselves no favors with this ad copy.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 28, 2014 8:12:16 GMT -8
I don't think that a flame war would erupt as long as the OP opens the thread in a manner that invites thoughtful discussion . Good point regarding our "Spend Wise" economy. Imho, the manufacturers will likely pay attention to sales of the Rapido FL9 and the MTH IRT subway cars as both are "Regionally captive" models. Only my thought but in my humble opinion both models will sell. Rapido has a well earned reputation for high quality. The Osgood Bradley coaches were beautifully rendered and it was a good strategy to produce the appropriate locomotive for the New Haven version. The MTH classic IRT subway cars (from the photos) are very attractive and appear to be closer to the prototypes than the Life Like Proto 1000 versions. I admit to having been a harsh critic of MTH in the past. MTH seems to be making an effort to improve its public relations in the HO market as well as customer service, which if sincere is a win-win for us. Although Paul Cutler disagreed with me on another thread, I still think that if anyone were to seriously consider producing an HO New Haven EP5, it would be MTH. They've already produced O-scale versions of the NY subway cars and the NH EP5. So, at least, familiarity would be in their favor. If Mike Wolf considers an EP5, I STRONGLY HOPE that he would consult with the NHRHTA for assistance in producing a prototypical quality model. If sales for the FL9 and IRT units are good then we may see more "obscure", unusual, or regionally captive locomotives produced that have been requested for a number of years (hopefully). I think anything New Haven sells, especially in the McGinnis colors. I followed the "quiet" Walthers release of their 64 seat Pullman coaches produced with just New Haven & Long Island letter boards a couple of years ago. And although not prototypical, they sold out so quickly, (some I've seen sold at full MSRP at a few train shows) they are no where to be found in hobby shops or even eBay. I know if River Point does eventually manufacturer the stainless coaches and market them correctly, they'll fly off the shelves. If not RPS, maybe Rapido will take a look at doing New Haven stainless coaches to go with the FL9. I picked up a few of their new Budd passenger cars over the weekend and they are NICE!! I would love to see MTH do HO scale versions of a EP3, EP4 & EP5, along with NH "Washboards". Or possibly, New York Central Electrics like the T-1, T-3 & the 1100 ACMU's. Or go a step further, the Erie Lackawanna electric MU's. All have been done in brass and with the exception of the NH Washboards and 1100 ACMU are already available in O scale, produced by either Lionel or MTH. So the engineering work exist already, and could be translated down to HO. Again, more "niche" items but IMO, these would sell very well. I would love for these to get produced before they fade from my generation's memory and only available to watch in action on You-Tube videos. As far as MTH goes, no manufacturer doesn't have horror stories associated with them. I could tell everyone some stories from years ago after dealing with Walthers & Athearn customer service dept. that would make you think twice about ever purchasing their products. But where as I didn't get anywhere on the phone with them, I found social media corrects the customer service problem real quick, as no one wants bad reviews. If anyone from the NYC area models commuter trains in HO, the ardent MTH hater will be hard pressed to pass on purchasing these subway cars, IF they are produced correctly.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 29, 2014 7:20:27 GMT -8
rails4dmv, New Haven does sell. The NH may have been 30th in size among US RR's, but it went through some very populated areas and there's really nothing that's replaced it other than Amtrak, M-N, MBTA, CDOT, and P&W (and a host of other shortlines). I talked with the Walthers rep. at the Springfield show when the "Non Haven" coach came out, and he told me the "NH" car sold out before it left China. What gets me is that it wasn't even that well done (it was missing the "NH" logos over each truck).
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 29, 2014 20:28:10 GMT -8
Paul, thank you for responding. You did a good job addressing each specific ad line as well as posting the link to the thread that featured some some really interesting responses. Amazing that even though it's been a decade since the MTH vs QSI "potential litigation" situation occurred (which infuriated a lot of HO modelers) MTH's leadership still sometimes manages to come across as the 400 pound gorilla in the room. I wonder if Mike and Andy realize that an ad like can make MTH appear as misleading and a bit arrogant. All they need to do is to take a quick look at Athearn, Atlas, Bowser, and Walthers as well as Digitrax, MRC, NCE, QSI, and Soundtraxx and they'll see that none of these companies engage in twisting the NMRA's recommendations. It's good that the NMRA didn't take it sitting down. Hopefully MTH will proceed more carefully with their ads. I don't wish MTH ill will and want to see them succeed. Since their personnel read these threads I hope they understand that if they want a larger HO customer base they need to improve their marketing strategy and customer service in the HO market. --------------------------------------------------------- New Haven stainless Steel cars: Hopefully RPS will be able to produce the NH Pullman Standard units. I find it hard to believe that RPS still wants to proceed with an FL9. I sincerely feel that it would virtually be "no contest". Ron is dedicated and a good guy. However, in looking at this scenario in a business sense, Rapido has a good track record with previous productions of quality HO & N locomotives/rolling stock, has solid connections with the overseas manufacturers, has a very good relationship with past/current owners of prototype locomotives and rolling stock, and has excellent reputable customer service (that MTH should consider emulating). Ron could have a potential winner if he can have those SS Pullman Standard streamliners produced in multiple flavors (NH, B&M, Penn Central, Amtrak Phase-1). The E&B Valley units are rather crude 1970s technology and no one else has produced a plastic RTR version. Not blowing my own horn, but I'm convinced that if Ron has them "plated" in a "cooler" stainless steel appearance (typical Pullman Standard sheathing), those puppies would sell out before the end of the pre-order deadline.
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