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Post by mlehman on Oct 8, 2014 7:36:15 GMT -8
Antonio, Thanks for the thoughtful comments  You take the words right outta my mouth -- and say them even better. NdeM wrote: So there are actually times when it is useful to be ignorant but completely happy.
I'm with you on everything you say, except this. I'm not arguing that we should promote ignorance (although it's often a comforting thing), but that we should do what your argument sums up to: have reasonable expectations, keep criticisms in perspective, consider the reasons why a model may fall short as well what the costs to "correct" it might be, etc. For all the weird stuff that runs on my layout, I'm always aware of what the prototype actually did -- sometimes I actually follow that instead -- but if I don't what I do build is often a commentary on the real in some form or fashion (although I gotta admit mostly has meaning only for me.) Chris, I haven't followed the RailFlyer saga, so I guess it's a case of my seeing low-hanging fruit that others are also sizing up as ripe to harvest. With the mass market technologies available today, there are lots of really cool things possible. The question is what ones are viable in the model railroad market. Those who get that right stand to make a nice profit if they watch their Ps and Qs. Jim/WI wrote: If we were dealing with $30 Athearn blue box models our expectations would be rather low. But we are dealing with $135 to $200 models. You don't expect the quality of manufacturing and attention to details of a Lexus when you are buying a Yugo. Likewise, when you are buying and paying the price of a Lexus, you don't expect the iffy manufacturing and lack of attention to detail of a Yugo.Interesting observation and one I mostly agree with, except I'd argue the $200 models are a lot more like Chevies than they are like Lexuses. You want the Cadillac and up models, I'd argue that's more like what OMI produces in brass. But I think your comment also reflects the considerably higher expectations of consumers and that's reasonable up to a certain point. I guess what I'm saying is I still don't expect a $200 model to be a Lexus, although I gotta say my $400+ Blackstones do come close at well under OMI prices, if you don't mind thinking narrow.  |
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 8, 2014 8:32:06 GMT -8
I notice people keep going back to the $30 blue box kit for comparison to today's prices. I remember several late blue box kits being more in the $50 range. Add about $30 for somebody to assemble all the little nitpicky parts, and adjust for inflation, and we are pretty close to where we are now, pricewise. And most of the new stuff is much better detailed from the factory than the moldy oldie blue box kits, as well. A $30 kit was offered when gas was $1.20 a gallon, milk was $1.59 a gallon, and bread was $.79 a loaf. Now, an assembled kit is $110, gas is $3.50 a gallon, milk is $3.99 a gallon, and bread is $2.79 a loaf.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 8, 2014 9:11:00 GMT -8
I notice people keep going back to the $30 blue box kit for comparison to today's prices. I remember several late blue box kits being more in the $50 range. .... <snip> May be, but I think the "bigger picture" salient point being made earlier involving the blue box model is that modelers expect more accuracy/fidelity from the higher end models vs. the lower end ones. |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 8, 2014 9:24:59 GMT -8
If we were dealing with $30 Athearn blue box models our expectations would be rather low. But we are dealing with $135 to $200 models. You don't expect the quality of manufacturing and attention to details of a Lexus when you are buying a Yugo. Likewise, when you are buying and paying the price of a Lexus, you don't expect the iffy manufacturing and lack of attention to detail of a Yugo. First, that $30 blue box RTR diesel of years ago is pretty much today's $100 DCC-ready Athearn in a blue and yellow box, mostly due to simple inflation/devaluation of the dollar. All I'm trying to say is that--where detail or sound is concerned--we need to have reasonable expectations. Unfortunately, a $200 diesel, though it might be a lot of money for me personally as well as some others, is far from being a "Lexus" in terms of what can reasonably be offered for that $200. It seems some of us want $800 brass level detailing on a $150 plastic budget...can't have it both ways. YMMV. |
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Post by mlehman on Oct 8, 2014 11:35:14 GMT -8
SNIP All I'm trying to say is that--where detail or sound is concerned--we need to have reasonable expectations. ... The one good thing about sound files, if they're inaccurate, it's about the easiest thing to fix in terms of revising and updating for another run. It's a digital thing, so easy enough to wipe and refresh where it's loaded in production. The only engineering involved is sound, and that's both common and accessible even for low-budget operators. The main costs are the logistical ones of getting to a location to record and, in some cases, arranging to pay all or some of the costs to have the subject operate while recording. Then you can market that next run as having New! Improved! Authentic! Sound. Of course, we have to remember that sound quality is determined by the technology on the chip (16-bit is pretty good compared to first gen, but things better are coming to market now) that the manufacturer has control over. But there are also things it has no control over, like speaker selection and installation. Like when we all were a lot younger,most of us anyway, you knew it wasn't the specs on the stereo that told the tale of how good it was, but your ears. With DCC/Sound, the ears still have it, but the expectations do have to be more generous. The good thing is that sounds is only one of a number of things telling your mind it's operating a train at such-and-such a place. You also have sight, which gives you all kinds of visual clues, and knowledge of the line the layout models. Fortunately, we don't depend exclusively on sound to create the sense of being there a good layout achieves. If you keep your expectations sized to fit that scenario, sound often works pretty darn well as just part of a bigger picture your mind is painting of what you're doing. Of course, for some subjects, no amount of money can fix the fact their "sound" has to be created "in the lab" because they have left the planet before they could be recorded. This tends to be more with steam, but there are diesels, too, which have to be faked - or there will be no sound. |
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 8, 2014 13:10:09 GMT -8
I find the lack of a plume of Alco exhaust more disconcerting than the sound not throbbing in my chest. But, I do have an imagination. Every time I crank the throttle on an old Alco, my mind immediately sees a huge black plume of exhaust bellowing from the roof. Steam guys must do that even more. But then, as has already been mentioned, there are limitations.
I realize I will never get chest pounding bass from my little engine as well as I'll never get all that exhaust belching from my engine .... not that I would really want it filling my room after a couple hours, but it would be cool .... so that's where the imagination kicks in and fills in the blanks.
Mark.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 8, 2014 14:12:40 GMT -8
I find the lack of a plume of Alco exhaust more disconcerting than the sound not throbbing in my chest. But, I do have an imagination. Every time I crank the throttle on an old Alco, my mind immediately sees a huge black plume of exhaust bellowing from the roof. SNIP Mark. Whoever patents the Alco Holographic Smoke Generator will make a mint. Then they can adapt that technology to steam. No more oily residues!  |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 8, 2014 18:37:30 GMT -8
Mike always makes some good points even though I probably seem as if I don't agree with him...
One of the challenges of sound with vintage power Mike alluded to is manufacturing sounds that we can't obtain recordings of:
I read multiple sources on the UP 4-12-2 three cylinder engines, and although a precious few sound clips of them actually do exist, when you research and talk to people online, you find that those sound clips that do exist--especially the famous ones--happen to be of engines that were no longer being maintained properly and were running "out of time". So the old heads say that, as a result, some of the model 4-12-2 sounds out there are not representative of the way the real engines sounded when properly maintained.
It's just that many of us, who were not there and cannot remember, will never know that.
Likewise, the articulated steam sounds of some systems out there are found wanting--because they too apparently replicate engines at the end, not always running very well. Not trying to slam a particular manufacturer, but at least one manufacturer (some years ago) was guilty of combining the "three-cylinder" steam sound with the "articulated" sound, into basically one track...a somewhat egregious "sin" if you will.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 9, 2014 7:57:39 GMT -8
Mike always makes some good points even though I probably seem as if I don't agree with him... No problem there for me. I enjoy the fact that you and most others here can carry on a discussion where several conflicting ideas can all be worked over, people learn from each other, and we can still be agreeable when we disagree. That's all I ask of the internet as an alternative to F2F conversation, yet it can be surprisingly difficult on some forums to cultivate that sort of healthy give and take because too many folks are more interested in drawing their personal lines in the sand to actually have a thoughtful discussion. One of the challenges of sound with vintage power Mike alluded to is manufacturing sounds that we can't obtain recordings of: I read multiple sources on the UP 4-12-2 three cylinder engines, and although a precious few sound clips of them actually do exist, when you research and talk to people online, you find that those sound clips that do exist--especially the famous ones--happen to be of engines that were no longer being maintained properly and were running "out of time". So the old heads say that, as a result, some of the model 4-12-2 sounds out there are not representative of the way the real engines sounded when properly maintained. It's just that many of us, who were not there and cannot remember, will never know that. Likewise, the articulated steam sounds of some systems out there are found wanting--because they too apparently replicate engines at the end, not always running very well. Not trying to slam a particular manufacturer, but at least one manufacturer (some years ago) was guilty of combining the "three-cylinder" steam sound with the "articulated" sound, into basically one track...a somewhat egregious "sin" if you will. That also reminds me of another issue. Even if you got a subject to record that was "in tune" the limitations of vintage recording gear meant a lot of otherwise good material was so poorly recorded that even extensive whiz-bang processing now available still leaves us with a pale imitation of the original. The media much of our audio RR legacy is recorded on -- tape -- can vary from excellent to crumbling depending on the formula using to make it and the conditions it was archived under. Then there is the fact that many people don't realize just how recent the capability for regular folks to simultaneously record audio and video are. Virtually all consumer grade recording gear before the VCR/Betamax era were video only, although there were some small inroads made in the 60s-70s with audio on 8mm movie film IIRC (never could afford to shop for that stuff, so my memory is a little hazy there). For the bulk of the moving images before 1980, there is no audio associated with the file, so to speak. Sometimes something faked together is all you have, unless you want silent movies. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 8:13:04 GMT -8
The one road, I hope that model railroad manufacturer's DO NOT head down is sound or nothing. BLI has eliminated DCC ready models from its offerings. Besides the added expense, the Paragon II decoder is just not very good. So couple the extra dollars for a decoder which you don't want and intend on replacing and your $200 model just became a $300 model. Cuts into the budget in a hurry.
If Athearn had a few years ago been sound or nothing when they were using the hated MRC decoder, I'm sure they'd lost sales. Likewise with Walthers and Atlas using the QSI decoder.
Sound decoders are like the likes and dislikes of Digitrax versus NCE. Some like ESU and will consider nothing else. Likewise, some are soundly (sorry the pun) behind Tsunami. If manufacturers go to sound or nothing like BLI, you will have many unhappy buyers. being forced to buy a model with decoder they don't want.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 9, 2014 9:52:39 GMT -8
SNIP So couple the e xtra dollars for a decoder which you don't want and intend on replacing and your $200 model just became a $300 model. Cuts into the budget in a hurry...Jim, I know what you mean. I was one of the folks who took a pass on the eraly MRC Genesis F-unit sounds. It was either right before or about the same time that Walthers began releasing the P2K Fs with QSI sound. I am not a QSI fan, but I generally have no complaints about the sound in my P2K Fs. I think I have good and bad news on the factory sound front. I suspect that it's a trend that will continue. While there are reports of DCC-equipped models lingering while DC units in the same run sold out, I suspect people are reading the tea leaves wrong if they think it indicates that DC is making a comeback. The vendors import what sells and I suspect the percentage of sound units sold goes up every year. More likely, when runs available as both DC and DCC are imported, the vendor probably commits most of the "cushion" of extra units over ordered and spoken for ones to sound. Why? They're simply more profitable. If you're going to have any units linger, then the more profitable ones are the ones that make the cut. Same for a shop-owner. If a loco might sit on the shelf six months before it sells, which one is going to take more profit to the bottom line to cover the cost of carrying it? The sound one. One can split hairs here and argue the DC model cost him less, so less $$ on his books, but I suspect the math and inclination for profit probably are tipping the scales to sound more and more often. So much for the bad news? What's good? I suspect sound pricing is going to become softer, so less of a cost difference between DC and DCC/sound models. With Bachmann pushing the sound price point down, I expect that to be extended to other brands over the next few years. So instead of a $100 difference, it will be more like $40. Like Bachmann's other decoders, it may be a throwaway for most of us, like their non-sound decoders are for me, basically a get you in the door freebie and not much account. Then you install the decoder you really want. It's kinda crude sound, but that will only improve. And once that pricing difference is significantly closed for the consumer, then the limited market incentives to build DC locos alongside DCC/sound ones will largely fade away. So we're back to bad news on that front in the end. At least it won't cost you much and is likely a few years away still, so get those DC locos while they're hot -- or at least still warm |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 9, 2014 11:11:50 GMT -8
If you watch MB Klein's real time inventory, you notice they typically order equal numbers of DCC ready and DCC/sound units (some importers also want to sell case lots, so that may have something to do with it as well).
The DCC-ready ones, due to the lower price point, etc. usually go out the door first. For most buyers, I think the price point is the major issue. Some like me will only buy the DCC/Sound units after all the DCC-ready ones are gone.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 9, 2014 18:30:12 GMT -8
Interesting about MBK, because you and their competition can both see what's on hand. I do know that they do reorder hot moving items to restock, so I suspect you'd have to track them closely to get the big picture of sales in an overall run that they handle. But the snapshot does tell a tale in itself. I remember when sound was always sold out first, if the item was desirable anyway, so best place your order quick to be sure to get one. That's now turned 180. I also suspect that more of the "wait-and-see" folks (we know they're out there, because some are members here ) go for DC, so once they come and seen, what's available in the DC inventory dwindles fast. But it just doesn't change the basic arithmetic of DCC/sound gaining on DCC-ready. Yeah, people in the hobby a long time tend to be less enamored by sound or their budgets don't stretch to afford it. But the younger generation -- yes, they're out there and I suspect their influence, buying habits, etc drive the hobby more now than many of us oldtimers recognize -- tends to find sound more desirable. As the old die off and the young gain the purchasing power that comes with middle age, the trend towards sound continues to gain market share. Then you knock out the $100 price difference between the two, which is what Bachmann is up to, and the equation changes. Unless you're one of the hard-core get off my lawn DC holdouts, you're going to drop 20 on a decorder for your DCC-ready loco. If the difference between that and factory DCC/sound is only $20 more, close to the what Bachmann has basically done with their latest products, that's a lot more attractive than when a decent sound decoder would otherwise add $100 to the price as it usually does now. Again, another increment pushing manufacturers toward just going all DCC/sound outadabox. Something else to ponder. I'd almost bet that DC sales remain stronger in less affluent markets than the US/Canada one. Right now, US DC aficionados here can probably thank that guy in Tajikistan for buying his kid a DC set for Ramadan for the fact that they still get that choice. Ultimately, when it's cheaper to build DCC power sources and decoder the loco than to wind the coils of an old-school power supply for DC is when the last of that stuff comes off the line. Maybe it's the price of copper that determines the end game for DC? |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 9, 2014 19:57:58 GMT -8
I've sampled some of the very reasonably priced Bachmann engines with sound...even gave them favorable comments on here, but the simple fact is that they fall a little short of the detailing of say an Atlas Trainman or Walthers Proto 1000 unit.
The Bachmann engines look really nice at first, but upon further research, you learn they cut some modeling corners...I believe a certain segment of the hobby will scarf them up, especially with the entry level sound/DCC. Yet others of us will likely continue to buy Atlas Silver or P2K or Bowser or the Athearn Genesis level units when able to do so.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 9, 2014 21:50:16 GMT -8
Very true. Bachmann serves a somewhat different market than we usually consider folks on this forum in. On the other hand, how many folks here started with Tyco, AHM, or whatever the cheap seats were? You gotta start somewhere and that somewhere tends to create expectations. If you've found passable sound affordable, then the good stuff is how much more???
Then there are the natural cycles of technology and products. In particular, we're essentially talking about an electronic product that in most other areas of our lives means constantly falling pricing while at the same time adding features. Now DCC has been adding features, including sound. But pricing has been significantly less responsive to the usual market factors. To a certain degree, that's because model railroading is more of a niche market than many of us like to think in the Big, Big World of Global Trade.
Thus, my argument here is that Bachmann is the first wave of what is the market catching up with a so far very profitable business and we finally see contraction in pricing. A canary in the coal mine, so to speak. Those Chinese factories turning to producing sound now will take a little while to get up to speed, but will soon provide some significant pressure further up the model RR foodchain I suspect.
Part of the reason is also overproduction. Most of the time we hear here about underproduction -- someone didn't get the item they wanted for a whole variety of good or bad reasons. While it's true that certain specific items may fall into this category, as an overall market I suspect model railroading is losing share. Doesn't mean anything that will really make a difference in most of our lifetimes. It's also offset by increased demand from more affluent people in other parts of the world, including China, where the model RR organization is 5 times as large as the NMRA already. But as a whole, I suspect the factories out there are capable of producing more than the market can really absorb, adding to downward pricing pressures likely becoming more of a factor.
In the end, the high end stuff we've increasingly come to expect will likely be there for us, but even if people buy it in preference to the Bachmann stuff of the world, that stuff nonetheless puts pressures on the Blackstones and Genesises of the world to demonstrate they remain a good value at a premium price.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 10, 2014 4:35:49 GMT -8
Respectfully, it's not a "very profitable business". More model train dealers, builders, importers, etc. go broke than ever make that much money. The companies that do model trains do them because they like trains and/or like making stuff and not because they are getting rich at it. They get by and eke out a modest profit, but that's about it. The work weeks can be brutal, except that the owner of a Bowser or an Exactrail gets to be their own boss. The capital tied up and the costs involved...become significant. And yesterday's tooling for models out of favor now can end up going for scrap.
However, I guarantee you that my hourly wage in a completely non-train related industry is way higher than the owner of one American model train company. Probably my total yearly salary, too.
If anyone is raking it in, it would be Bachmann/Kader. The others...not so much. I just locally heard that Atlas had dropped a number of their dealers and distributors for failing to meet some young accountant's outrageous monthly sales goal. This really hurt the dealers as now they have another layer to go through--and lost profit--and reputedly it is not helping Atlas's bottom line either, because allegedly their sales are way off. I really love Atlas products, but their dealers need to eat...Suddenly selling or "pushing" other makes over Atlas is becoming more common.
Now I understand why nobody has as much Atlas in stock as they once did...it's not just a "supply" issue as some of us thought.
I like accountants almost as much as lawyers...
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 10, 2014 5:29:04 GMT -8
I think the OP got shafted on this subject.... This went to crap from the get go in the middle and present..
Maybe you should have put this in the dcc section??
As I see it the mfg's (the sound guy's not bowser,atlas,walthers..etc) are starting to update available files improving light functions and have added more effects..drive tune has always been my first deciding factor then sound then lighting and other functions although drive can also be moot if you don't understand bemf and how to adjust it so "some" manufactures have been trying to make it a selling point and make it easier and almost beginner proof...so the sound can be perfect and all the bells and whistles but if my engine moves kerky jerky ill move on or wait for a better file from another manufacture...
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 10, 2014 6:24:04 GMT -8
BLI's decoders leave a lot to be desired such that all the bemf in the world doesn't help all that much. The other guys' stuff runs better.
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 10, 2014 6:44:20 GMT -8
BLI to me is like soundtraxx making trains. A big mistake.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 10, 2014 6:46:38 GMT -8
Maybe you should have put this in the dcc section?? Agree'd - moved. That makes sense. Now that sound has been out for a while and has a number of manufacturers, they need to start tweaking and refining the features to compete better and stand-out. |
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Post by nightmare0331 on Oct 10, 2014 6:47:13 GMT -8
The one road, I hope that model railroad manufacturer's DO NOT head down is sound or nothing. BLI has eliminated DCC ready models from its offerings. Besides the added expense, the Paragon II decoder is just not very good. So couple the extra dollars for a decoder which you don't want and intend on replacing and your $200 model just became a $300 model. Cuts into the budget in a hurry.
If Athearn had a few years ago been sound or nothing when they were using the hated MRC decoder, I'm sure they'd lost sales. Likewise with Walthers and Atlas using the QSI decoder.
Sound decoders are like the likes and dislikes of Digitrax versus NCE. Some like ESU and will consider nothing else. Likewise, some are soundly (sorry the pun) behind Tsunami. If manufacturers go to sound or nothing like BLI, you will have many unhappy buyers. being forced to buy a model with decoder they don't want.
Talking to BLI, the reason they shifted to all sound/dcc units was that the non sound/non dcc versions languished, so for their particular case it made more sense to simplify and go with all sound/dcc units. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. In their particular case it made the most sense from a business perspective. Kelley. |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 10, 2014 6:52:51 GMT -8
It's not like BLI has set this in stone or drastic changes were made... They might try it for a year two then compare sales from running all models ran and see if its a good gain or a fall out???
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Post by mlehman on Oct 10, 2014 9:38:48 GMT -8
Yeah, should have been more specific about profitable. I was referring to B-mann/Kader, more or less. But I think that some of the importers ARE doing well. Athearn, Blackstone, maybe ExactRail and BLMA, heck probably many are. But it is a time of fundamental change. Optimists sometimes call it "creative destruction" although having been through the wringer on that in my own career, I know it's not a good place to be. Right now I presume the prospect of being a "winner" in this hobby sector remains attractive enough that the pace of new products still seems dazzling to me. Somethings going right here, even in the midst of considerable pain for others. BLI to me is like soundtraxx making trains. A big mistake.   ??? Hate to break it to you, but Soundtraxx has been making trains for about a decade ( blackstonemodels.com/) -- and it's been a raging success by all accounts I'm aware of. Maybe you can let the narrowgauge crowd know where we've gone so wrong buying all that stuff? And, yes, Blackstone has standard gauge models in its sights, someday. And we'll probably find equal quality if they do. I'm personally hoping for a Rio Grande C-48 |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 10, 2014 9:52:32 GMT -8
Blackstone wasn't even considered for not going to include non diesel running gear ....maybe I should have said MRC...LOL!!!
Paragon isn't something I'd want to have on my layout so I'm not being fair and biased.
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Post by mlehman on Oct 10, 2014 10:06:08 GMT -8
Blackstone wasn't even considered for not going to include non diesel running gear ....maybe I should have said MRC...LOL!!! Paragon isn't something I'd want to have on my layout so I'm not being fair and biased. OK, you lost me there for a second.  Personally, I'd love it if Blackstone did a narrowgauge diesel. They were included on mtive power interest surveys they did a few years back. Tough call there, I think they would sell enough if they picked the right prototype -- maybe a DL-535E (which they could also sell to well-heeled tourists riding the WP&Y) or maybe a small GE. I've actually been hoping Bachmann would do a run of their perennial 44- or 70-tonners in HOn3. I'm pretty certain no F-units, though, thank goodness. But I don't know if the market is as ready for that as I am. Diesel salesmen get run off -- or worse! -- on many narrowgauge layouts...  |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 10, 2014 10:19:59 GMT -8
Don't get me wrong black stone is the cats meow but I got sticker shocked when I was gonna make a small narrow gauge logging village..so stuck with diesel's
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Post by mlehman on Oct 10, 2014 12:19:41 GMT -8
After you've built you two-dozenth 3000 series boxcar, those prices start looking pretty good. Since I got in at the beginning, I got a lot of them at $29.95 less 20%. When I count the time involved, they're still bargains. Blackstone is also a good argument for having less, but better quality stuff. However, I can understand the sticker shock if you haven't put a toe in the narrowgauge water before. I think it also makes me somewhat blase about what folks pay for standard gauge RTR. Looks like a downright bargain in many cases, although that gap has been rapidly closing.
One thing you can count on with Blackstone is quality. They build stuff good and stand behind it. I know we've been through the quality control discussions before here. Some folks think the mfg's can't get anything right. Others say QC is a no brainer and everything should come outta the box with zero defects and at a bargain basement price. Well, that's pretty much where Blackstone is and you can see how much that costs. Blackstone is built by Kader, but it's clear that the QC standards for Blackstone are considerably above for Bachmann. The cost difference reflects that. If you wish for perfect models outta the box each time -- well you can guess pretty much what that would cost by looking at Blackstone prices, then subtracting a little bit because standard gauge items would probably be built in larger numbers than for HOn3. Most folks get more willing to send back a few bad apples when they find out 100% great might add $100 to the cost of a loco.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 10, 2014 13:01:15 GMT -8
I'm fortunate to enjoy a wonderful relationship with a couple train stores, including one I once worked for (where I receive extra discounts and/or other privileges), but sending stuff back? ? That I flat out do not get to do. If it's ordered, it absolutely has to be picked up. If I don't like it and there's nothing seriously wrong (ie it runs ok and nothing is broken/defective from the factory) then I'm stuck with it, or it's on me to sell it somewhere else. There is absolutely no returning something just because I don't like the way it looks or sounds, or because it might be scale 4" too high or I don't quite like the way a fuel tank looks. If I did that, I'd never be able to order anything again (that has been made clear to me). I have been able to cancel a reservation or two on the past, on stuff they could sell to others, but even that is "no more" for me. So I'd like to know who the folks are that get to order models and return them to the dealer if they don't like them? Because honestly, I simply cannot do that. And I don't know any train store that would continually allow a customer to do that (maybe once or twice, but that's it, after two times they will likely say "no mas"). They can't just return items to a distributor just because somebody didn't like the appearance or whatever. They can't afford the double shipping--there's little or no profit left then. So if one guy who ordered xyz passes it up, they are stuck with the item till somebody else buys it. Please enlighten me. My only real special privilege is if there's multiple units of a given item, they know I'm picky, and as long as I'm very neat and professional with all the packaging, I can inspect multiples of an item and choose the one I like the best--but that's it--and I have to repackage the others as good as factory new. |
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Post by mlehman on Oct 10, 2014 22:06:44 GMT -8
Hah, I wondered why that last box of chocolates I got from Whitman's looked pawed over... I don't recall sending anything back myself. I'm fairly certain if I had a significant issue, my dealer would make it right, one way or the other, though. Maybe that's one reason why I'm a bit of a skeptic on QC issues. Either I'm way, way luckier about the models I get than the lottery tickets I buy -- or -- someone is buying way, way more models than I am AND is really miffed when they find the few bad apples. On the other hand, we can take all that griping at face value. If it's bad, send it back. But seems like few do -- or what they're willing to gripe about online is a considerably different thing that what they're actually willing to pursue with their dealer to get satisfaction. I know, because this came up in one of the periodic QC discussions. As it turns out, folks gripe a lot, but apparently never send anything back, whether it was worthy of return or not. I came to the conclusion that in the hobby as a whole we're more than willing to accept poor QC so long as things are cheap. Sure, there's some grumbling, but that's what it amounts to for the most part. Those vendors who say they rarely see bad stuff come back are telling the truth, not covering bad QC up after all. And from what they can see, they're right. Is there any incentive to attend to better QC? Not if returns are less than 1% and most of those are squashed boxes. I have heard of folks getting miffed about a return on a pre-order, but what are you going to do if the darn thing is bad? I know I wouldn't just suck it and move on with $200, $300, or more sometimes at stake. But then again, I guess I've chosen well or something, as I've never had an issue that wasn't covered. That includes new shells for misnumbered Genesis Fs, fixing the motor problems with the early Blackstone K-27s, etc. The vendors have stood behind their stuff. I brought up QC in the context of Blackstone pricing. Because narrowgaugers can be a darn picky bunch, Blckstone knew going in they'd have to deliver or we'd just go on buying brass and building kits -- that's just fine with us. They kept their commitment to put out a quality product. People may see it as expensive, but it's value is clear to most of us. |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 11, 2014 8:13:55 GMT -8
Back to sound quality and sounding like a transistor..
I have two genesis with sound but there speakers leak air!!
If its not air tight wasted sound and distortion will make anybody not want to hear it..these little speakers got to be sealed air TIGHT!!!
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You take the words right outta my mouth -- and say them even better.
???