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Post by jpluth1221 on Mar 12, 2015 21:20:03 GMT -8
A week ago I installed a ring engineering module in an mth sd-70ace, I posted my thoughts on the install. I got it up and running and now here is my review of the railpro system.
The first thing I had to do was set the max load current on the motor which is a simple process on the controller, just press a few buttons. I ran into some problems with the MTH motor so I switched it to a kata hm-5, that solved the current draw issues (more of an MTH problem, so I won't go into details). Once the locomotive was up and running, I needed to download the correct sounds and a picture of the locomotive from their website to the module. This is the worst part of the experience. While it is not that bad, the interface is rather cumbersome, but still a lot better than programing CV's. It took me only 15 min to have the locomotive completely programed, and running.
All in all, I love it, it is so much easier to use than even the best DCC system. I have 4 more locomotive modules on the way so I can try out there MU features which don't need speed matching.
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Post by wmpaul on Mar 13, 2015 4:12:41 GMT -8
So, what's a module? Is that the same as a decoder or ?
Paul
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Post by riogrande on Mar 13, 2015 4:28:36 GMT -8
jp,
For those of us who are unfamiliar with what Ring Engineering Railpro is, can you describe this product briefly, as in what it is and what it does? May of us are unfamiliar with it.
Thanks
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Post by llxlocomotives on Mar 13, 2015 7:39:24 GMT -8
JP will have more info. My understanding of Rail Pro is that it is one of many control options that are coming on the scene. While they are said to work with either DCC or DC, the track only provides power, no control signal. Thus the DCC complication is not needed. The control signal is transmitted to the module wirelessly. The main reason for it to run on a DCC system is for compatability reasons.
These new products are considered as steping stones in the gradule evolution to on board power dead rail systems. There are at least two other variations that are coming on the market this year that are essentially the same. Rail Pro has been out a few years. The more recent ones are focused on controling and doing the set up using an app on a smart phone or computer.
There are lots of arguments about these concepts. We will see how it all comes out. The idea of being able to use 16 volts continuous in the rail insead of the 30 volts put into DCC sounds good to me. Particularly when most of the 16 volts are avialable to the motor where with DCC the motor sees less than 12 volts. In addition, fluctuations in power will not be misintrepreted by the controler as they now can be by the decoder. Because the control is not part of the power signal, electronics can be put in place to minimize the impact of current surges.
JP, I will be following your experience very closly. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by atsfan on Mar 13, 2015 8:08:55 GMT -8
HO train power is little improved over 50 years.
This is a step in the right direction.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 13, 2015 9:54:41 GMT -8
llxlocomotives,
DCC at 30 volts? Huh? HO settings are usually 14 volts, not 30v.
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Post by llxlocomotives on Mar 13, 2015 11:49:56 GMT -8
DCC is +15 and - 15 volts. Peak amplitude is 30 volts
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Post by nsc39d8 on Mar 13, 2015 14:33:14 GMT -8
Take a look here: www.ringengineering.com/RailPro.htmOne of my friends has installed these in various Athearn Genesis and Kato locomotives and written several reviews on another forum. if I was not so heavily invested in DCC this would be my choice. Just think motor control, sound, programming and sound programming(changing sounds) without a lot of fuss and cuss about CV's. Watch the videos RailPro has and I am sure you will agree it's really simple. As long as the loco gets power you are good to go. |
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Post by atsfan on Mar 13, 2015 16:33:53 GMT -8
$60 for a decoder.
That seems to be the only downside unless you want to take your engine to a DCC layout.
Actually reading further you can run them on a DCC layout with the controller.
So $60 for each decoder which is more than DCC decoders.
But DCC is way too complicated. The future is simplification and more plug and play.
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Post by bar on Mar 13, 2015 16:47:46 GMT -8
Dead rail is already here for HO, it can work with existing DCC. No good reason to depend on wheel-to-rail contact for power. NCE offers a decoder with built-in radio receiver. But if people want to continue to wrestle with balky turnouts, shorts, and fried decoders then by all means, do so.
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Post by atsfan on Mar 13, 2015 16:48:50 GMT -8
Dead rail is already here for HO, it can work with existing DCC. No good reason to depend on wheel-to-rail contact for power. NCE offers a decoder with built-in radio receiver. But if people want to continue to wrestle with balky turnouts, shorts, and fried decoders then by all means, do so. Can you explain this further please ? |
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Post by atsfan on Mar 13, 2015 16:55:04 GMT -8
www.ncedcc.com/#!online-store/c1n1m/!/D13NHP-1-3-Amp-4-function-8-pin-NMRA-plug-with-small-no-halt-module-installed/p/38322137/category=10225385 Do you mean this ?
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Post by markfj on Mar 13, 2015 17:04:53 GMT -8
Just watched the videos and thought it was a very impressive system. Kind of makes me glad that I don’t have a layout yet and haven’t bought any locomotives with decoders.
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Post by riogrande on Mar 13, 2015 17:26:36 GMT -8
Kind of makes me glad that I don’t have a layout yet and haven’t bought any locomotives with decoders. The flip side to that is you haven't been having fun running trains either. Not really something to be glad for; I know from personal experience. And as pointed out, $60 per engine... if you have only a few engines, then that's manageable but if you have lots, then it's not affordable yet. |
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Post by WP 257 on Mar 13, 2015 17:53:42 GMT -8
$60 per engine? At that price, I don't need it.
The few trains I have run just fine in good old plain DC. No wrecks, no power drops to speak of--I used Kato track with enough feeder wires, and the only issues are when really big steamers try to run...
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Mar 14, 2015 17:36:13 GMT -8
TCS Keep Alive, the answer to dirty track since 2012/13. The best answer to having a perfect runner on ANY and all tracks.
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Post by atsfan on Mar 14, 2015 18:00:23 GMT -8
TCS Keep Alive, the answer to dirty track since 2012/13. The best answer to having a perfect runner on ANY and all tracks. Al I see there is a keep alive with the small plug. Is that what you use? Where does that plug connect to? Also, do you use the short or longer duration keep alive? As issue with space installing them? Thanks |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Mar 14, 2015 18:12:49 GMT -8
TCS Keep Alive, the answer to dirty track since 2012/13. The best answer to having a perfect runner on ANY and all tracks. Al I see there is a keep alive with the small plug. Is that what you use? Where does that plug connect to? Also, do you use the short or longer duration keep alive? As issue with space installing them? Thanks The TCS Keep Alive with the plug is not the one I use. I use the one with plain blue and black wires then solder them to the boards of a A4X or A6X decoders. You could spend about $3 more for the Keep Alive KA2-C or $3 less getting the KA2 which needs to be solderd to the board rather than plugged in. You would also need to buy the A4X and A6X that had leads coming off of them for the KA2-C/KA1-C (plug versions) which also cost about $2-3 more. So I simply solder the wires rather than pay $6 just to have a male and female plug. I use the 15 second Keep Alive, the KA2. I never buy the KA1 anymore, after having an issue, it was more of a problem trying to fit in a locomotive than the skinnier & longer KA2. I have had just one issue with room in a shell on a GP38-2 from Atlas and had to cut some weight out. |
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Post by atsfan on Mar 14, 2015 18:31:26 GMT -8
Al I see there is a keep alive with the small plug. Is that what you use? Where does that plug connect to? Also, do you use the short or longer duration keep alive? As issue with space installing them? Thanks The TCS Keep Alive with the plug is not the one I use. I use the one with plain blue and black wires then solder them to the boards of a A4X or A6X decoders. You could spend about $3 more for the Keep Alive KA2-C or $3 less getting the KA2 which needs to be solderd to the board rather than plugged in. You would also need to buy the A4X and A6X that had leads coming off of them for the KA2-C/KA1-C (plug versions) which also cost about $2-3 more. So I simply solder the wires rather than pay $6 just to have a male and female plug. I use the 15 second Keep Alive, the KA2. I never buy the KA1 anymore, after having an issue, it was more of a problem trying to fit in a locomotive than the skinnier & longer KA2. I have had just one issue with room in a shell on a GP38-2 from Atlas and had to cut some weight out. OK I see now there is the A4X, the A4X-KA with the wires, and A4X-KAC with the plug. Interesting. I like the concept. Adds some cost but I can't stand the DCC or Sound engines that stop dead on any tiny bad spot on the track. |
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Post by kpack on Apr 5, 2015 9:05:57 GMT -8
For those of you who are unfamiliar with what Railpro is, I'll give a quick run-down of what it is and what it does. Railpro is a control scheme/system that is meant as an alternative to DCC and DC. As stated earlier, Railpro does not receive signals through the track as DC does. Railpro sends the signals directly from the controller to the locomotive through radio signals. The signals are in the 2.4 gHz band. Each locomotive has a module (decoder) that receives the signals and controls the locomotive. The modules are designed to be as compatible as possible to work with current locomotives. As such, they are compatible with standard 9-pin plugs. For locomotives that do not have a 9-pin plug they can be hardwired in the same way a DCC decoder is. This is the second-generation Railpro module, the LM-2:  Size is 1.5" x 0.68" x 0.25". Smaller than most DCC boards. The above picture is of the LM-2S (S for Sound) which retails for $99, but is available for $75 from places like YankeeDabbler. See this video for a typical installation: The modules do not care where the power comes from, as long as it is constant. They can use DCC-powered tracks to use the power but do not respond to DCC signals. In this way Railpro can be run on DCC layouts without issues. Again, Railpro will not respond to DCC nor will it control DCC trains. The control protocol is completely different. Railpro's power supply is 14.2 V regulated DC, meaning it is constant. It can be used on traditional DC power but it is not recommended because some DC power packs can 'spike' with very high voltages and damage the modules. Battery power can be used with Railpro, but for me it is not feasible due to the size of current batteries and risks of LiPo fires. The best thing for me about Railpro is the communication protocol. Unlike DCC, Railpro products communicate with each other in real time. For example, when controlling a locomotive you can see in real time the status of the locomotive module by tapping a button on the controller. You can see the temperature, current draw, and voltage on the track in real time. This two-way communication really comes into play when MU-ing. Setting up a consist is as simple as setting a single variable on each locomotive (Motor Full Load Current), then tapping the locomotive icons in the order you want them to be MU'd. Then, when the locomotives are running, they automatically adjust their speed to equally spread their load across the consist. This is possible because each locomotive will shares it's real-time data with the controller, which automatically adjusts the other locomotives in the consist. This all happens instantaneously and without any input from the user. No more speed-matching and messing with CV's. See this video here for an overview of the Railpro system when I first started using it. Keep in mind this is old and some of the features have changed, including the sounds, but it gives you an idea of how things work. Pay attention to the last few minutes when I MU six locomotives of different makes and quality. The sounds are the weak spot in Railpro at the moment. They have improved dramatically since it was first released though. Is it on-par with Loksound? No, not yet. You have to keep in mind that Loksound didn't become awesome until the last year or two and they've been around for a while. It will take a while for Railpro to get to that point but it will. All things in time. That being said, sound is constantly improving with Railpro. New sounds are released every month and old sounds are improved. Sounds are 44.1kHz, 16-bit mono. Railpro will be releasing a program to allow user-loading sounds in the near future. I've been beta-testing it for a while and like the capabilities. Here are a few samples of sounds: This is all stock Railpro sounds: This has some custom sounds. Most are from A. Wood of Midwest Locomotive Works, used with permission: Again, some custom sounds. All custom sounds from Midwest Locomotive Works, used with permission. Railpro is easily updated. All files (sounds, lighting effects, pictures, software, etc) are downloaded onto the controller and then transferred wirelessly onto the locomotive modules. New features can easily be added and capabilities enhanced. Basically it is limited only by how much memory is on the modules. Software updates, new features, sounds, etc are constantly being released. When the new program is released users will be able to create their own pictures, lighting effects, sounds, etc and load them onto the modules. For the most part loading onto modules is pretty straightforward and fast. Larger files, like full prime-mover or steam files, take a good amount of time to download onto the controller and from there onto the modules. If I'm loading a file like that, I just start it and work on something else for a few minutes while it loads. Hopefully this gives you a decent overview of what Railpro is and does. Sorry for the novel here, but it's hard to condense it satisfactorily. If you have questions feel free to ask. I may not have all the answers but I'll do what I can. -Kevin |
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Post by bar on Apr 5, 2015 10:00:06 GMT -8
Interesting, but only partly improves on the wheel-track problem.
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Post by kpack on Apr 5, 2015 10:52:23 GMT -8
bar - yes, but the groundwork architecture is there once batteries become more viable. Until then there are the various keep-alive products that can be used with Railpro should you feel the need. I haven't at this point. I used to be interested in batteries but after researching I found there were none available at this point that were small enough to fit in a standard HO-hood unit alongside the motor, speakers, module, wiring, resistors for LEDs, etc, while still offering anything resembling a decent run time. Until battery technology gets to that point it wouldn't work for me. Regardless, the original post is about Railpro so I will try to keep my future comments related to that rather than battery power.
-Kevin
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Post by airbrake on Apr 5, 2015 11:39:12 GMT -8
I purchased RailPro approximately 4 years ago and although it works as stated I found several shortcomings which I tried to resolve with the manufacturer with no response. The MU function where the load is spread over the entire consist is problematic if you use swing or rear end helpers on long trains and all the locomotives are consisted together. This comes about when you have no helper engineer available. This can occur from time to time when not enough engineers are available and you have to take the train up the hill. The train length I am talking about here would be 50+ cars. I know this may sound overly long to some but occurs often during sessions, as an example, at the La Mesa Club in San Diego or the Golden Gate Club in San Francisco.
The problem with RailPro as it stands is if the lead Locos stumble and/or slow down momentarily for some reason the system commands the other Locos in the consist to try and take up the load and they increase their power automatically. This can (and has) caused derailments as the helpers are now pushing the entire train from the rear. I asked the manufacturer if the Load control feature could be disabled manually at times to help with this and was told no. As we discussed this problem it seemed they were not interested in offering a solution to fix this problem. I was very disappointed as several large clubs liked the system and were willing to switch over to it as it can be used, as designed, on existing DCC layouts without interfering with the DCC during changeover. I am building a rather large railroad that will have trains this long and was very disappointed that Ring Engineering showed no interest in coming up with a solution. I am still hopeful for a fix down the line but as time draws near to choose which direction to go it looks like DCC.
The sounds currently available, as mentioned previously, are not up to par with what is currently available. I know an improvement is promised in the future but I was told the same thing four years ago. The DCC sounds available to the Hobby have greatly improved over the last two years and I do not see Ring Engineering keeping up. In DCC we now have stereo and larger sound files. Some DCC manufacturers have adopted features that mimic the real way dynamics work which are great for us diesel people. Ring Engineering has a long way to go to catch up but it doesn't have to be this way as they set the pace with which their product performs.
All in all I like the system as direct communication with the Locos is the way to go and should have been done to begin with. I am disappointed that the system is not up to snuff as far as present DCC is.
Jim
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Post by bigb6flyer on Apr 5, 2015 12:44:02 GMT -8
You're having problems with a mth sd70ace ho motor? Say it ain't so, Joe. Welcome to the club, two shorted out decoders and two self-paid shipping charges later, I finally got a good motor in mine. Then I got rid of it.
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Post by kpack on Apr 5, 2015 13:52:25 GMT -8
Jim - have you updated the modules and controller to the latest software versions? I had an issue consisting between two specific locomotives way back when I first got the system and Ring and I worked on finding a solution. I tested several beta software revisions until the issue was resolved. I say this because there have been many software revisions since then and there is a good chance your issue may have been resolved or at least lessened. I'd be curious to see if there has been any change. I haven't done much with DPU's so I can't speak from much experience there.
The sounds have improved since Railpro was first released, though yes they have some way to go. DCC sound has really jumped in quality over the last 2 years, but you also have to remember DCC has been around for nearly 15 years. Some of the companies like Soundtraxx have been around for 25 years. It has taken them a long time to get where they are today. It just takes time. Yes, Railpro is behind the sound curve compared to DCC at this point, but with time and effort I don't see it couldn't match and surpass the DCC sound offerings. The system is easily updated and improved through software updates. With new recordings and sound processing the sounds will continue to be improved. Obtaining recordings can be very difficult by the way.
Is it a perfect system? No, of course not. All systems have shortcoming and issues. But I've been pleased with the progress that Railpro has made and the changes that I've seen since adopting it. And I certainly enjoy it much more than I enjoyed DCC.
-Kevin
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Post by wmrdgfan on Apr 5, 2015 14:31:36 GMT -8
kpack... I have a Question... Can I use my existing DC power supply, and just use the throttle (hand held ) and reciever from railpro, and forgo their rower supply. My power supply is variable voltage,to 18volts,5 amp. Or do you need their power supply as a repeater for the signal?
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Post by kpack on Apr 5, 2015 16:56:18 GMT -8
Yes, but they don't recommend it. When I first got the system I was using an old power pack to power a test track on my workbench. I never had a problem, but asked Ring Engineering to be sure. This was the response I got:
"We only recommend running RailPro locomotive modules on a RailPro power supply or a DCC system as described in the LM-2 instructions.
It is possible that an analog power supply can damage a LM-2. Most analog power supplies have fairly stable voltage when unloaded or lightly loaded. But some start outputting sinusoidal or other wave shapes as they become loaded. Our analog power supply outputs nearly full sine wave shaped voltage when it is in a over load condition and the LM-2 is not designed for that shape of voltage. Further, when our analog power supply is turned all the way up the peaks are above the maximum of the LM-2 (18 volt peak) which can also damage the LM-2. i.e. an accidental slip on the knob can damage a LM-2."
If I were in your shoes I wouldn't risk it. I'd pick up a PWR-56 and be on the safe side. The PWR-56 is their newer power supply and is lower cost and more efficient than their old supply. It's $92 at YankeeDabbler.
-Kevin
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Post by atsfan on Apr 5, 2015 17:10:26 GMT -8
You're having problems with a mth sd70ace ho motor? Say it ain't so, Joe. Welcome to the club, two shorted out decoders and two self-paid shipping charges later, I finally got a good motor in mine. Then I got rid of it. My luck must be better as I have had no issue with mine. |
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Post by wmrdgfan on Apr 5, 2015 17:41:56 GMT -8
kpack... thanks for the info... my power supply(s) are commercial computer power supplys which were purchased at a hamm radio event around 1991. Don't have much info on them, other than they have "crowbar". They are awesome supplys for my ctc system on DC. I've been thinking of this Railpro system to set up on a few of my motive power,but not eliminating my DC system. I would have to install DPDT switches if I use another power source.
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Post by kpack on Apr 5, 2015 18:00:51 GMT -8
Perhaps look more into your power sources and you might be able to make a better decision. I'm assuming that they probably don't spike if they are computer power supplies. I do know another guy who is running Railpro and is powering his layout using commercial computer power supplies. Here's the link to his blog: LK&O Railroad. The link will take you to his post on powering the railroad. There are a few more posts related to powering the layout that are worth a read. He would be much more knowledgeable in this area than me. I'd recommend asking him a few questions regarding his power supplies and how he set everything up! You should be able to post in the comments section on there and get some answers, or perhaps contact him directly. Hope that helps! -Kevin |
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