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Post by bdhicks on Jul 25, 2012 18:13:24 GMT -8
I remember there was a rumor back before Athearn released their first-gen geeps that they were also going to do some of the chop-nose rebuilds, so it would be nice if that's one of the announcements.
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Post by el3637 on Jul 25, 2012 23:06:53 GMT -8
I applaud RPP's efforts for bringing locomotives that were then unavailable to modelers in masse production. Yeah, they may have been crude, especially by today's standards, but Dana Stark put his money where his mouth was and made something happen. [/font][/quote] The idea of making shells for needed models to fit on existing drives goes back to the 1970s but Dana was the first to actually do it. I don't think there was anything wrong with what he did or how he did it at the time. His products were successful, and the addition of Cannon's parts to the EMD models gave us the opportunity to turn them into respectable models, even if Dana objected to the practice. The fact is Dana sold a lot of shells just because the Cannon parts were available, and Gordon sold a ton of parts just because there were shells that needed them. Those were good times for kitbashers and model builders. One doesn't have to look too hard at the RPP upgrades from Athearn and other Athearn efforts since the late 1990s to see Gordon Cannon's influence. I've ebayed a few redundant RPP shells and they tend to do well, sometimes going for more than I paid for them - if for no reason other than inflation and they're still usable for modelers who don't want to spend $200 for a new RTR model, or just enjoy the challenge. I do enjoy a challenge but at the same time, I like to work with the best available material - and I'll start over if I'm not too far along and something better comes along. I sold a few of my RPP kitbashes off - some finished, some not. I still have my first Superfleet loco - an RPP based SD45. It doesn't look as good as my more recent SD45 based on the P2K shell, but I've upgraded it with Cannon fans and it holds its own and I frequently run the two together. The 1769 will always be Superfleet, because it's the first of the new Superfleet I committed to in 1996 when I decided to start over and consign my widebodies and Atlas Roco stuff to the history shelf. I built an SD60 and a GP60 from RPP shells, which I still have (NS). I started on another GP60, a high nose GP35, and a B23-7. IMO the B23-7 was the roughest of the RPP shells. Bob Harpe built a respectable model out of one, which I'm still impressed with - but it was a lot of work. The C32-8 was the basis of a couple of C39-8 kitbashes done by Ed Ryan and Dave Hussey and the subject of an article in RMC that pushed the envelope for this kind of plastic work - Ed was fixing things on the shell that most of us didn't know were broken. Dave's model last I saw it was still unpainted and it shows all the work that went into it. So many things have changed since Dana first turned that audacious C32-8 shell onto the market. Not just the China factor, but the level of detail and optional parts on RTR models has skyrocketed. The first RPP shells sold for around 10 or 15 bucks. If you wanted to produce a shell today to fit an existing drive - say at phase II GP35 - it would have to be up to current standards and it would be a $100 shell, not $10. There have been a few - like the resin SDP40F from Kaslo, in that price range. If I were to get into the business - not to make money but to make something useful for modelers - I'd make bare shell components that are "Cannon Ready". I wouldn't invest in tooling parts that already exist like cabs, noses, hood doors, fans, radiators, inertial hatches, etc. We've gotten a few things along these lines like Hi-Tech's SD39 long hood sides. They allow the modeler to construct an SD39 using the chassis and walkway from a Kato or Athearn/RPP chassis and walkway and build up the rest with Cannon and other parts. Certainly some RTR models have stopped some of my modeling projects. I have always had plans going back to the 1970s to build some Southern diesels, even started on an SW7 and a U33C. I built some ex-Southern stuff for NS (GP50, GP38-2, SD40-2). But the onslaught of RTR has put Southern power strongly into my B fleet... 3 SD45s (Athearn/RPP), two SD40-2s (Athearn), four GP30s (Proto), four GP38s (Atlas), two SD24s (Atlas), MP15s (Atlas), SW1500s (Athearn), even a Genesis F unit. I also had plans to build an EL SD45-2, first with the RPP shell and then later I planned to scratch one. Athearn's model is so good it pretty much nuked that project. I have three... and a couple of undec EL versions. But I may never get around to it, instead I will probably do one thing Athearn won't do - the EL 3657, which is an SDP45 with a stretched SD45-2 long hood and a dash 2 cab, nose, and sub-base. That project will use some of the Genesis shell plus other fun stuff. I also believe Athearn will do an SDP45 eventually. That won't stop me from building another one of my own... it could be a ways off. I would buy theirs, both the EL and SP versions. I can't picture any other manufacturer doing the SDP45 in plastic. Right now Athearn has put their stock in the new GP38-2 which, tooling wise, is as good as I've seen. I still have those two unfinished scratchbuilt Toosh Dahs on the bench. I don't expect Athearn to revisit their SD40-2 for a while. It's doing well for them right now in its third upgrade. I have their N&W maroon version and a couple of Southerns as well as a Chessie. Good solid B-fleet units. I'm modeling a time where the SD40-2 was fairly new on the N&W, but they came in substantial numbers in 1974-5-6. I would like to model one of the last order with Q fans and all, but it is a bit late for my modeling period. That might be one I'd go for in an RTR, but I ultimately will want at least 4 of them in the Superfleet. The two I'm doing now - 1635 (last high nose) and 1636 (first low nose) were built in 1973 and 1974 respectively. I will probably build at least one each of the later ones. Anyway all this rambling... Rail Power filled a niche at a good time to do so. Would crude shells like that sell today, knowing that even a one-piece is going to run upwards of 50 bucks? Hard to say. I think the shell kits for oddballs will probably belong to the resin market in the near term. Andy
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 26, 2012 9:35:32 GMT -8
Athearn had a gullwing cab as well, specifically for ATSF units.
RE: Rail Power Products
I applaud RPP's efforts for bringing locomotives that were then unavailable to modelers in masse production. Yeah, they may have been crude, especially by today's standards, but Dana Stark put his money where his mouth was and made something happen.
With the design and production technology available today, I think a modern version of RPP might do rather well, granted things were kept simple.
Donnell The old Dash 9 44CW model that Athearn released needed work also especially in the cab area for the windowns. The thickness of the material in the window area was overdone. I did replace two of those with Kato cabs which did make for a nicer looking unit. The Athearn had the air conditioner installed, which the Kato did not have, but I purchased several of the Athearn air conditioning units and removed the filter to add to the Kato models. The side frames on the Athearn model were correct for most railroads since they were the later released GE sideframes. The Kato had the 1st phase side frames on the first run which was incorrect for most railroads except the first 50 SF units as new and the first 35 C&NW units. Later on after shop work, many of those first phase side frames were replaced with the later ones. The Union Pacific Dash (9's all came with the later side frames which was incorrect on the Kato UP units. I believe that the AC4400's that Kato came out with did have the late side frames but they never looked as good as the Athearn models for that feature. All of this information and about $1.50 will buy you a decent cup of coffee at most quick stops! larry
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Post by roadkill on Jul 26, 2012 16:52:21 GMT -8
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an SD45M , sorry, I know everyone calls them SDP45s on EL but they don't have steam generators (and... in EMD internal documents they're called SD45Ms).
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Post by buffalobill on Jul 26, 2012 18:53:50 GMT -8
Andy- I would love to see a SDP-45 in both the steam generator and non steam generator versions. But with just 3 railroads involved, and around 52 total built, I don't think I am going to hold my breath.
Bill
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Post by riogrande on Jul 26, 2012 18:55:22 GMT -8
You mean the SD45's rebuilt for SP from old SD45's and SD40-2's, but rated at 3,000 and the 3 rear roof fans are closely spaced together? They are cool looking diesels but I think they came into use a bit after my modeling period cutoff.
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Post by el3637 on Jul 26, 2012 18:59:49 GMT -8
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an SD45M , sorry, I know everyone calls them SDP45s on EL but they don't have steam generators (and... in EMD internal documents they're called SD45Ms). If Athearn makes them, they'll want to make the SP version as well which is an SDP45. An SD45M implies that it's a modified SD45. It's a modified SDP45, so if you really want to be picky it's an SDP45M. Or I prefer to think of it in General Motors terms, it's an SDP45 with the "Steam Generator Delete" option Andy
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Post by el3637 on Jul 26, 2012 19:02:56 GMT -8
You mean the SD45's rebuilt for SP from old SD45's and SD40-2's, but rated at 3,000 and the 3 rear roof fans are closely spaced together? They are cool looking diesels but I think they came into use a bit after my modeling period cutoff. There are so many rebuilds that I don't place a lot of stock in rebuild nomenclature. Any rebuilt SD45 could be called an SD45M. I think the SP ones that got dash 2 electronics and 3000 hp were all called SD40-2Ms regardless of the frame or carbody they started with. I believe there were only four that had been rebuilt from SD45s but kept their full length hoods with a 40 type radiator grill and oversize dynamics. And I believe I caught all four of them together as a pusher set around Mojave one time, but I will have to find the pics. Pretty sure it was in March 97. Andy
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 26, 2012 19:25:10 GMT -8
You mean the SD45's rebuilt for SP from old SD45's and SD40-2's, but rated at 3,000 and the 3 rear roof fans are closely spaced together? They are cool looking diesels but I think they came into use a bit after my modeling period cutoff. There are so many rebuilds that I don't place a lot of stock in rebuild nomenclature. Any rebuilt SD45 could be called an SD45M. I think the SP ones that got dash 2 electronics and 3000 hp were all called SD40-2Ms regardless of the frame or carbody they started with. I believe there were only four that had been rebuilt from SD45s but kept their full length hoods with a 40 type radiator grill and oversize dynamics. And I believe I caught all four of them together as a pusher set around Mojave one time, but I will have to find the pics. Pretty sure it was in March 97. Andy The SP called them SD40M-2's. They had at least 10 rebuilt from SD45's with the GP40 radiators. I built a model of one out of a Kato SD45 a while back. Cool looking units. They are the first units in their class, along with one or two more mixed in with the rest. espee.railfan.net/spsd40m-2.html
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Post by riogrande on Jul 26, 2012 20:06:46 GMT -8
Yes, I had read up on them at espee.railfan.net - seems quite a few used SD45's as "cores", some from SP and other roads.
I don't ever recall that KATO did a speed letter HO SD45. Mine is the stock SP SD45 but it lacks the SP details like plow, light packages etc... suppose it is closested to the SD45R's, the road number being #7500
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Hergy
Full Member
Posts: 117
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Post by Hergy on Jul 27, 2012 11:30:48 GMT -8
I would hope that their loco announcements would amount to more than just paint jobs on their existing lineup. From their Facebook page they thanked NS and took copious notes and pix of the 5 or 6 Aces that were painted in the Heritage schemes. I think it's a cinch that they will do the ACes. Somewhere I read where Intermountain has more or less stated that they intended to do the correct versions of the GEVOs so maybe the NS stuff is covered. With that out of the way, Athearn can now introduce the DD35 A&B units and the 8500 hp Turbines. Probably can't guess what my favorite road is. (Is it too obvious?)
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jul 27, 2012 11:52:43 GMT -8
The old Dash 9 44CW model that Athearn released needed work also especially in the cab area for the windowns. The thickness of the material in the window area was overdone. I did replace two of those with Kato cabs which did make for a nicer looking unit. The Athearn had the air conditioner installed, which the Kato did not have, but I purchased several of the Athearn air conditioning units and removed the filter to add to the Kato models. The side frames on the Athearn model were correct for most railroads since they were the later released GE sideframes. The Kato had the 1st phase side frames on the first run which was incorrect for most railroads except the first 50 SF units as new and the first 35 C&NW units. Later on after shop work, many of those first phase side frames were replaced with the later ones. The Union Pacific Dash (9's all came with the later side frames which was incorrect on the Kato UP units. I believe that the AC4400's that Kato came out with did have the late side frames but they never looked as good as the Athearn models for that feature. All of this information and about $1.50 will buy you a decent cup of coffee at most quick stops! larry Actually, Athearn did revise the C44-9W cab a few years ago. They reshaped the front two-piece windshield, rounding the corners more. It does look a lot better the the original cab, however, the numberboards are still undersized.
Also, Details West makes a set of etched window gaskets to retrofit the older C44-9W cab windows with the square corners along with a four-piece frame kit for the cab side windows for BNSF units, and, correctly-sized numberboards for GE widecabs with high-mounted numberboards. Check out their page below to see an beautiful example of the upgrades:
www.detailswest.com/NS%20Models%20Page.htm
Donnell
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 27, 2012 12:11:13 GMT -8
Andy- I would love to see a SDP-45 in both the steam generator and non steam generator versions. But with just 3 railroads involved, and around 52 total built, I don't think I am going to hold my breath. Bill Three? I counted 5 before I ran out of fingers. And two of them are roads that Athearn has an extra-keen interest in. Ed
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Post by nw611 on Jul 27, 2012 12:42:11 GMT -8
SDP45 original owners were EL (gray/maroon), GN (Big Sky blue)and SP (bloody nose). Further paint schemes were EL Bicentennial, CR, BN and SP Kodachrome. There was also a different SP bloody nose scheme. I can think of three patched paint schemes: EL gray/maroon and Bicentennial lettered and numbered for CR and Big Sky blue for BN. Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 27, 2012 14:11:58 GMT -8
The old Dash 9 44CW model that Athearn released needed work also especially in the cab area for the windowns. The thickness of the material in the window area was overdone. I did replace two of those with Kato cabs which did make for a nicer looking unit. The Athearn had the air conditioner installed, which the Kato did not have, but I purchased several of the Athearn air conditioning units and removed the filter to add to the Kato models. The side frames on the Athearn model were correct for most railroads since they were the later released GE sideframes. The Kato had the 1st phase side frames on the first run which was incorrect for most railroads except the first 50 SF units as new and the first 35 C&NW units. Later on after shop work, many of those first phase side frames were replaced with the later ones. The Union Pacific Dash (9's all came with the later side frames which was incorrect on the Kato UP units. I believe that the AC4400's that Kato came out with did have the late side frames but they never looked as good as the Athearn models for that feature. All of this information and about $1.50 will buy you a decent cup of coffee at most quick stops! larry Actually, Athearn did revise the C44-9W cab a few years ago. They reshaped the front two-piece windshield, rounding the corners more. It does look a lot better the the original cab, however, the numberboards are still undersized.
Also, Details West makes a set of etched window gaskets to retrofit the older C44-9W cab windows with the square corners along with a four-piece frame kit for the cab side windows for BNSF units, and, correctly-sized numberboards for GE widecabs with high-mounted numberboards. Check out their page below to see an beautiful example of the upgrades:
www.detailswest.com/NS%20Models%20Page.htm
DonnellDonnell Thanks for the update. You have to understand I have not been updating late model locomotives for some time but will have to look into these options. I like doing the detailing so this might be a way to get some new work going. I still have five Atlas Dash 8-40CW units with sound that need all of the underwalk piping and many other updates. This is filed under projects that need to be started and finished! I am waiting this evening for the Union Pacific 7964 to come past Roseville later on today. Larry
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 27, 2012 15:29:41 GMT -8
SDP45 original owners were EL (gray/maroon), GN (Big Sky blue)and SP (bloody nose). Further paint schemes were EL Bicentennial, CR, BN and SP Kodachrome. There was also a different SP bloody nose scheme. I can think of three patched paint schemes: EL gray/maroon and Bicentennial lettered and numbered for CR and Big Sky blue for BN. Ciao. Raffaele There's also this scheme: It's not really an SDP45; I s'pose. But it sure looks like one. Yes, indeedy. Ed
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 27, 2012 20:34:46 GMT -8
Of course, you can't just go by number of roads for deciding if a model is going to happen. More roads have operated an SF30B than have operated a DDA40X, U50, Slab Side Turbine, and Veranda Turbine combined, yet I doubt Athearn is going to be introducing an SF30B anytime soon.
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Post by nw611 on Jul 27, 2012 22:31:25 GMT -8
Ed, you are right. UP 2768 was rebuilt for SP in 1994 from an EL SDP45. Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by calzephyr on Jul 28, 2012 18:29:04 GMT -8
Ed, you are right. UP 2768 was rebuilt for SP in 1994 from an EL SDP45. Ciao. Raffaele Was that one called a SD40-3 model by the SP after the rebuild? Larry
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 28, 2012 19:59:10 GMT -8
Ed, you are right. UP 2768 was rebuilt for SP in 1994 from an EL SDP45. Ciao. Raffaele Was that one called a SD40-3 model by the SP after the rebuild? Larry I've only seen them referred to as SD40M-2's. They used whatever locomotives they could get their hands on, which included SD40's, SD45's and the SDP45's.
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Post by nw611 on Jul 28, 2012 23:23:51 GMT -8
The complete histoy of this unit: built 8/1970 as SDP45 EL 3668, to CR 6699, to VMV 6699, rebuilt by MK in 1994 as SD40M-2 SP 8692, to UP 2768. Ciao. Raffaele
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Post by el3637 on Jul 28, 2012 23:42:03 GMT -8
I really think the SDP45 would be a success. Paint scheme count isn't a big problem, and the units were long-lived and well documented, and managed to get almost everywhere. The obstacle is the whoever does it will need to do both versions to get the most out of it. The EL version had the greater numbers, got around a whole bunch, had lots of paint schemes - including SP and UP. The SP version didn't get around as much but they have to do it, especially if it's Athearn because they have a legacy of doing SP stuff well. The GN version I know the least about but if you do the SP, doing the GN is just a matter of details.
Looking at what Athearn has done with the GP38-2, I know they're more than capable of engineering the tooling for the multiple versions. The SDP45 will not have the nearly endless potential of the GP38-2 in future runs, but - then again - as most of us are aware, manufacturers are looking for diesels that won't be just another me-too.
EL - 2 paint schemes, as delivered and the later version where the roof was gray rather than black - although the gray frequently wore off to show the black. As-built with the goofy angle-mounted horn, and as modified with the bracket - a part Athearn already has.
EL / CR paintout... I wouldn't buy one, but they're still quite popular. I think any manufacturer doing it would do the paintout version.
Conrail... and the paintouts in Conrail blue that roamed around. Remember, these locomotives were owned by N&W and leased to the EL via Dereco. When the lease was up, they came back to N&W... saw some storage, some service on the N&W (they had dual controls like all of N&W's locomotives did until 1974, but N&W sold them off and then their next life began.
Still in Conrail blue...VMV leasing...
SP speed lettering. By this time they had been re-engined with 16-cylinder prime movers. Some had the engine compartment doors changed and other sheet metal alterations, but some pretty much retained their exterior appearance. The low profile fans were swapped out, but most of them seem to have kept the low profile exhaust hatch, inertial hatch, and T-vent.
... and at least a couple got dipped in the yellow soup as we've seen photographic evidence of. I have a pic of one at Tehachapi loop circa 2000 or 2001 I think.
So one can argue the numbers by old school thinking, but - when Atlas can make an "SD26" rebuilt in all its forms and sell it, and all of the other variants now being done, there's really nothing stopping an Athearn SDP45 except their own production schedule and the current economic conditions.
I have no inside knowledge... it's just logical. Right now Athearn is regrouping to get their RTR line back into production, and getting gobs of GP38-2s out the door as well as the revamped GP7s and GP9s.
Oh yeah, today I saw the NKP geep, and the EL version. I could have procured an EL with noise, but I really don't need an oddball B-fleeter with noise as it would be the only one, even if it's a Tsunami. So I ordered one without that I should be able to get to play nice with an NCE or TCS decoder. So I committed to at least one of the geeps.
Andy
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Post by roadkill on Jul 30, 2012 17:00:07 GMT -8
I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an SD45M , sorry, I know everyone calls them SDP45s on EL but they don't have steam generators (and... in EMD internal documents they're called SD45Ms). If Athearn makes them, they'll want to make the SP version as well which is an SDP45. An SD45M implies that it's a modified SD45. It's a modified SDP45, so if you really want to be picky it's an SDP45M. Or I prefer to think of it in General Motors terms, it's an SDP45 with the "Steam Generator Delete" option Andy Po-TAY-to... po-TAH-to... ;D
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Post by roadkill on Jul 30, 2012 17:05:31 GMT -8
SDP45 original owners were EL (gray/maroon), GN (Big Sky blue)and SP (bloody nose). Further paint schemes were EL Bicentennial, CR, BN and SP Kodachrome. There was also a different SP bloody nose scheme. I can think of three patched paint schemes: EL gray/maroon and Bicentennial lettered and numbered for CR and Big Sky blue for BN. Ciao. Raffaele As an EL modeler I can use one in GN, there's a shot in the Morning Sun EL in Color vol. 2 of one running on the EL main in New York. IF (I hope WHEN) Athearn brings this unit out I'm good for at least 5 EL units and one GN unit(probably get patched BN).
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Post by roadkill on Jul 30, 2012 17:11:39 GMT -8
EL - 2 paint schemes, as delivered and the later version where the roof was gray rather than black - although the gray frequently wore off to show the black. As-built with the goofy angle-mounted horn, and as modified with the bracket - a part Athearn already has. Andy Missed one Andy... EL 3638 was painted R/W/B along with SD45 3632 for the Bicentennial.
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Post by el3637 on Jul 30, 2012 22:38:03 GMT -8
Po-TAY-to... po-TAH-to... ;D Who the hell says po-TAH-to anyway? Andy
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 4:10:11 GMT -8
Po-TAY-to... po-TAH-to... ;D Who the hell says po-TAH-to anyway? Andy I think LAB-ra-tory versus La-BORE-atory would have been better.......than talking about french fries...... ;D
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 31, 2012 11:42:53 GMT -8
I don't NEED an EL SDP45, but I'd get one (besides a pile of GN, BN, UP) just as I'd get an NYC C430--just can't help myself.
Ed
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Post by roadkill on Jul 31, 2012 14:31:10 GMT -8
Po-TAY-to... po-TAH-to... ;D Who the hell says po-TAH-to anyway? Andy Wondered that one myself...
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Post by roadkill on Jul 31, 2012 14:32:06 GMT -8
I don't NEED an EL SDP45, but I'd get one (besides a pile of GN, BN, UP) just as I'd get an NYC C430--just can't help myself. Ed A C430 might induce cardiac arrest...
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