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Post by hovehicle on Jul 21, 2015 16:52:19 GMT -8
Shane,
Please consider doing some HO vehicles from the 1980-2010 time frame; 2 particular models we need are straight trucks (with a dry van), and step vans. Straight trucks are everywhere, yet the best one out there is the Athearn Ford C cab with corrugated sides. It'a great truck for the 1960-1980 period, but we could use one for the 1990's! Yes, there are many trucks like the Freightliner FL70 cab with a Morgan dry van, etc. still in service.
In time, I hope you'll consider vehicles and structures too.
Vito L.
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Post by 12bridge on Jul 21, 2015 17:19:51 GMT -8
Shane, Please consider doing some HO vehicles from the 1980-2010 time frame; 2 particular models we need are straight trucks (with a dry van), and step vans. Straight trucks are everywhere, yet the best one out there is the Athearn Ford C cab with corrugated sides. It'a great truck for the 1960-1980 period, but we could use one for the 1990's! Yes, there are many trucks like the Freightliner FL70 cab with a Morgan dry van, etc. still in service. In time, I hope you'll consider vehicles and structures too. Vito L. Amen! |
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Post by roadkill on Jul 21, 2015 17:47:18 GMT -8
One car popped into my head the other day, and I'm quite shocked that not only has no one here suggested it but that Athearn, Exactrail, nor Tangent have done it. All we've had has been a nasty awful Roller Bearing Models kit from the '70s and the crude Walthers car that's been around since what, the late '80s? I give you the 2 bay General American Airslide: www.rr-fallenflags.org/wm/wm05563aga.jpg |
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Post by stevewagner on Jul 21, 2015 18:07:07 GMT -8
If I'm remembering correctly, two-bay Airslides came in at least two sizes, with at least one being larger than the one for which Walthers made kits. (I, for one, had a good time assembling quite a few of those kits and the Walthers kits for PS-2CD ribbed three-bay covered hoppers a bit smaller than the ones Athearn did, which weren't as big as the 4750's InterMountain did. (Tangent has, of course, produced exquisite models of PS-2CD's of three different capacities.) Anyway, a firm thinking about making two-bay Airslides might want to consider producing a larger version not made by Walthers. I don't know which type was more common.
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Post by dti406 on Jul 21, 2015 18:46:22 GMT -8
Oh and by the way, undecorated kits, I don't care what Athearn has said in the past, undecorated kits do sell. Try to find one of the ACF 2970's or Airslides for example, they are never on E-Bay and if they are they go for astronomical prices like Rail Yard Model's kits.
Rick J
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jul 21, 2015 19:15:20 GMT -8
Thinking about more covered hoppers like the Pullman-Standard 2-bay 3010 and the P-S 3-bay 3510.
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Post by espeenut on Jul 21, 2015 19:38:39 GMT -8
...Shane probably has the correct answer, but I suspect the reason why there aren't any more trucks and vehicles has to do with licensing. There are some fairly nice trucks available but made in such a way as to be generic to avoid the licensing issue. There are lots of nice cars available as well but they're either older cars or European. I grabbed up some HO scale trucks a while ago made by Norscot, they're Kenworth and Peterbilt conventional cabs with aero style sleepers, very nicely detailed models and the price was also very nice. But the packaging made it obvious that these were licensed as the Kenworth and Peterbilt logo's were quite prominent...
cheers,
Lorne Miller
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 22:24:53 GMT -8
Oh and by the way, undecorated kits, I don't care what Athearn has said in the past, undecorated kits do sell. Rick J I 100% agree with Rick's wish. Undecorated kits, please. And good luck to Scale Trains. Regards, Pierre BARBE |
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Jul 22, 2015 7:15:48 GMT -8
Shane, Please consider doing some HO vehicles from the 1980-2010 time frame; 2 particular models we need are straight trucks (with a dry van), and step vans. Straight trucks are everywhere, yet the best one out there is the Athearn Ford C cab with corrugated sides. It'a great truck for the 1960-1980 period, but we could use one for the 1990's! Yes, there are many trucks like the Freightliner FL70 cab with a Morgan dry van, etc. still in service. In time, I hope you'll consider vehicles and structures too. Vito L. Thanks for the suggestions Vito. Vehicles are on our radar screen. As Lorne mentioned, the biggest challenge for truck cabs and automobiles is licensing. Here are some things that influence our decisions to license a brand. (1) Licensing contracts and fees - contract terms and fees vary widely. A mom and pop trucking company may request free samples to give away to their customers while a major auto manufacturer will likely have strict requirements. Auto companies usually require a minimum annual amount (often $5K to $10K) and commitment to a multi-year legal contract. Licensing fees normally range from 6% to 10% of the manufacturers selling price to wholesalers, retailers and consumers and is paid quarterly. (2) Attorneys and Accountants - We have a knowledgeable business attorney who has helped us negotiate several real-world builder and railroad licenses because there is a-lot of legalize. Trust me, we're not experts in the fine print. If the contract specifies a royalty, a good accountant and sales tracking software are vital since you do not want to be in breach of your agreement for non-payment. This means there are legal and accounting fees to consider too. (3) Tooling - Tooling for a well detailed vehicle costs about the same as a mid-range freight car with separately applied parts. The more variations of the vehicle - box van, stake bed, flat bed, wrecker, dump truck, cement truck, fuel truck, etc. - the greater the tooling cost. And sometimes the variations require additional licenses. (4) Pricing - how much will a customer pay? Vehicles with more detail are naturally more expensive. And the higher the selling price, the fewer units sold. This can be disastrous when it comes time to make-up the difference owed for the annual fee. (5) Covering Expenses and Making a Profit - we have to sell enough to cover the minimum annual licensing fee, tooling cost, unit cost and make a profit without over saturating the market. One can only have so many Toyota Camry's in different colors and trim styles without looking out of place on a layout. (6) Freight cars definitely sell better than vehicles over the long term. As a manufacturer, we have to decide we're ok making less revenue and profit when we offer a vehicle. One last thing, GM considers model trains as toys even though they're labeled ages 14+. Because of the choking hazard, securing a GM license is extremely difficult. I hope this helps take some of the mystery out of licensing vehicles for our favorite hobby. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc. |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 22, 2015 9:10:39 GMT -8
My 2 cents is skip the HO vehicles and start with freight cars.
About the only auto car that would make sense to do is a generic car with medium details for people to fill up auto racks with.
Forget the licensing fees.
Modern Oil Tank car for example. Or something you can make and sell over and over again like Tangent's cars. All good choices they have made.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 22, 2015 9:27:02 GMT -8
Great read Shane and very informative of what goes into the design process.
One question, how far down the tree does a license cover? For example, something like Amtrak California Cars. Would one license cover an entire HO passenger car design or would you have to get lawyers involved and pay separate licensing fees to Caltrans, Morrison Knudsen, Amtrak, etc.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 22, 2015 9:35:29 GMT -8
Or something you can make and sell over and over again like Tangent's cars. Despite my previous comments about Tropicana reefers and FGE box cars, I think the ACF 4600, as others have suggested, is that kind of car you're describing and one of the best possible options for a manufacturer to produce right now. Dozens of paint schemes that could be rerun for years, and many people like me need lots of them. I could easily see myself buying 60 or more CSX, SBD, Chessie, Family Lines, and L&N cars over the course of several years. That's about as good of a "sure thing" as a manufacturer could ask for these days, I think. The only thing I ask is to make sure that whoever does the ACF 4600 offers both early and late bodies, and hopefully even variations within them, such as high brake wheels / ladders in the early car. If those minor variations aren't practical, then just give me early and late undecorated kits! Dave |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jul 22, 2015 9:42:31 GMT -8
Scaletrains should use Monster LEDs for their locomotives. Hint hint.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2015 9:58:28 GMT -8
Pre order concept is well understood. His comment of helping to determine demand to not stock too much inventory makes sense. What does NOT make sense (and this new company is not included obviously) is saying made to pre orders only, required one year in advance, Sight unseen. That extreme model is not good. So a happy medium is fine. I know if I don't pre order and I want something badly to not sit around and wait for months after they finally come out. The issue is that points 1 and 2 lead naturally to point 3. Announce a model, build a sample, get it ready to produce, wait for pre-orders, and then none come in. Now you need to choose between a run that won't sell out, or scraping the project. It makes better business sense to announce a project, ask for pre-orders, and then finish and produce it. Yeah it sucks, but than again this whole hobby sucks sometimes. |
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Post by roadkill on Jul 22, 2015 11:01:09 GMT -8
Or something you can make and sell over and over again like Tangent's cars. Despite my previous comments about Tropicana reefers and FGE box cars, I think the ACF 4600, as others have suggested, is that kind of car you're describing and one of the best possible options for a manufacturer to produce right now. Dozens of paint schemes that could be rerun for years, and many people like me need lots of them. I could easily see myself buying 60 or more CSX, SBD, Chessie, Family Lines, and L&N cars over the course of several years. That's about as good of a "sure thing" as a manufacturer could ask for these days, I think. The only thing I ask is to make sure that whoever does the ACF 4600 offers both early and late bodies, and hopefully even variations within them, such as high brake wheels / ladders in the early car. If those minor variations aren't practical, then just give me early and late undecorated kits! Dave I second this! Another MUCH needed car that for some reason is ignored. |
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Post by roadkill on Jul 22, 2015 11:06:05 GMT -8
My 2 cents is skip the HO vehicles and start with freight cars. About the only auto car that would make sense to do is a generic car with medium details for people to fill up auto racks with. Forget the licensing fees. That already exists, the generic blobby station wagon, sedan, and coupe from Bachmann. |
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Post by Spikre on Jul 22, 2015 11:19:35 GMT -8
 SteveW, there should be a thread on the large 2 bay Air-Slides from about 2 years back,see if it can be found. the 4180 Double Air Slide dates from about 1962 until at least the mid 70s. there were at least 3 main Phases,or versions. later there were at least 2 larger car bodies with Trinity building them for GATC.the last cars had 4800 CUFT,or more capacity.{built early 90s} will see if that thread is still available ? Spikre 
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jul 22, 2015 11:24:09 GMT -8
Ha since your mock drama falling out they went with my company LED Monster instead. Besides there are so many better sources for LEDs. Scaletrains should use Monster LEDs for their locomotives. Hint hint. |
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Post by stevef45 on Jul 22, 2015 11:31:31 GMT -8
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Post by peoriaman on Jul 22, 2015 11:55:00 GMT -8
About the only auto car that would make sense to do is a generic car with medium details for people to fill up auto racks with. Forget the licensing fees. Load up an auto rack with "generic" automobiles and you'll hear nothing but disappointment from everyone who looks at them and realizes they are just generics. Unlike some commodities like coal or unwrapped lumber, model cars have to be specific enough to be recognizeable as to make and model. |
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 22, 2015 12:02:45 GMT -8
Pre order concept is well understood. His comment of helping to determine demand to not stock too much inventory makes sense. What does NOT make sense (and this new company is not included obviously) is saying made to pre orders only, required one year in advance, Sight unseen. That extreme model is not good. So a happy medium is fine. I know if I don't pre order and I want something badly to not sit around and wait for months after they finally come out. The issue is that points 1 and 2 lead naturally to point 3. Announce a model, build a sample, get it ready to produce, wait for pre-orders, and then none come in. Now you need to choose between a run that won't sell out, or scraping the project. It makes better business sense to announce a project, ask for pre-orders, and then finish and produce it. Yeah it sucks, but than again this whole hobby sucks sometimes. This is a great summary of why point 3! Thank you! I don't like it any more than some of you all, but the reality is that advertising a model that doesn't get enough pre-orders to meet a good minimum price quote (based upon 3D cadd drawings) is far better than actually incurring the tooling costs and then finding out nobody wants said model. John |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jul 22, 2015 14:05:42 GMT -8
Ha since your mock drama falling out they went with my company LED Monster instead. Besides there are so many better sources for LEDs. Scaletrains should use Monster LEDs for their locomotives. Hint hint. LOL. You silly man! Taking my melt down and flipping it like I did. LOL |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 22, 2015 14:52:02 GMT -8
The issue is that points 1 and 2 lead naturally to point 3. Announce a model, build a sample, get it ready to produce, wait for pre-orders, and then none come in. Now you need to choose between a run that won't sell out, or scraping the project. It makes better business sense to announce a project, ask for pre-orders, and then finish and produce it. Yeah it sucks, but than again this whole hobby sucks sometimes. This is a great summary of why point 3! Thank you! I don't like it any more than some of you all, but the reality is that advertising a model that doesn't get enough pre-orders to meet a good minimum price quote (based upon 3D cadd drawings) is far better than actually incurring the tooling costs and then finding out nobody wants said model. John We cannot be a a stage in the hobby where nobody will make anything all all absent pre orders. If that is where we are, RIP. A company would need to come up with the pre samples. It would need to know it will be able to sell enough to be worthwhile. Now how MANY they actually make can vary based on pre orders, but not IF they will make it. |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 22, 2015 15:00:21 GMT -8
Or something you can make and sell over and over again like Tangent's cars. Despite my previous comments about Tropicana reefers and FGE box cars, I think the ACF 4600, as others have suggested, is that kind of car you're describing and one of the best possible options for a manufacturer to produce right now. Dozens of paint schemes that could be rerun for years, and many people like me need lots of them. I could easily see myself buying 60 or more CSX, SBD, Chessie, Family Lines, and L&N cars over the course of several years. That's about as good of a "sure thing" as a manufacturer could ask for these days, I think. The only thing I ask is to make sure that whoever does the ACF 4600 offers both early and late bodies, and hopefully even variations within them, such as high brake wheels / ladders in the early car. If those minor variations aren't practical, then just give me early and late undecorated kits! Dave Yes the 4600 or the one Athearn makes with 40 year old tooling. They would sell forever. |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jul 22, 2015 15:10:44 GMT -8
I think you're thinking of the ACF centerflow 5250 covered hopper as the Athearn model. There were over 17,000 5250 long body versions built from 1968-2006 I believe. There were over 15,000 ACF centerflow 4600 covered hoppers cars built from 1965-1981.
[/quote]
Yes the 4600 or the one Athearn makes with 40 year old tooling. They would sell forever.[/quote]
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 22, 2015 15:23:51 GMT -8
atsfan--
Companies such as (but in no way limited to) BLI routinely advertise pre-orders for products for which no--zero--pilot sample model currently exists. Case in point: Texas & Pacific 2-10-4 (website only shows a drawing, and the official pre-order time has passed, though they will still accept more orders). In fact, the pre-order window was opened and closed without any sample models being available (I just ordered a different model, the GN S-2 4-8-4 brass hybrid, today from my dealer who had reserved a few). They do in fact have sample models of the 4-8-4, but even their recent 2-8-0's, which were arguably quite a hit, were ordered without showing a finished pilot or sample model.
I am not singling out BLI here or trying to trash them in any way--it just happens to be the closest relevant example for me personally (as I've been looking at buying steam)--as it seems many are doing this or some form of this.
Some are taking pre-orders based upon having only an overall body sample available for review (not even completed), but it's basically the same thing: soliciting orders prior to having a completed, decorated sample model--and asking you the customer to "trust" them.
As far as "build to order" or "pre-order" or whatever one wants to call it, with only a few notable exceptions, it seems we are already there.
If I was the manufacturer myself, and had concerns about whether or not a particular model would be a hit enough to justify it, and if it were my own money on the line, I would do it the exact same way: do all the research, prepare the drawings, and prepare everything needed to get a good cost estimate. Then figure out if you have the orders to complete the job and cover the costs.
Respectfully submitted--
John
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Jul 22, 2015 15:59:50 GMT -8
Great read Shane and very informative of what goes into the design process. One question, how far down the tree does a license cover? For example, something like Amtrak California Cars. Would one license cover an entire HO passenger car design or would you have to get lawyers involved and pay separate licensing fees to Caltrans, Morrison Knudsen, Amtrak, etc. Another great question rails4dmv. Thankfully most railroads and real-world locomotive and rolling stock builders do not require licensing contracts and fees. And the ones that do have a fairly simple process and the fees are usually minimal. One of our licenses cost $1 per year and another $100 every other year. Some builders also request samples to give away to employees and clients. They understand we're a small Industry and the royalties are not going to fill their coffers. They just want to be assured the information they provide is kept confidential and not shared. They're protecting their company's intellectual property which is completely understandable. Last I knew, the only railroads who require ongoing licensing fees are government funded enterprises like Amtrak, MBTA, MTA, New Jersey Transit, and SunRail. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc. |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 22, 2015 19:38:07 GMT -8
atsfan-- Companies such as (but in no way limited to) BLI routinely advertise pre-orders for products for which no--zero--pilot sample model currently exists. Case in point: Texas & Pacific 2-10-4 (website only shows a drawing, and the official pre-order time has passed, though they will still accept more orders). In fact, the pre-order window was opened and closed without any sample models being available (I just ordered a different model, the GN S-2 4-8-4 brass hybrid, today from my dealer who had reserved a few). They do in fact have sample models of the 4-8-4, but even their recent 2-8-0's, which were arguably quite a hit, were ordered without showing a finished pilot or sample model. I am not singling out BLI here or trying to trash them in any way--it just happens to be the closest relevant example for me personally (as I've been looking at buying steam)--as it seems many are doing this or some form of this. Some are taking pre-orders based upon having only an overall body sample available for review (not even completed), but it's basically the same thing: soliciting orders prior to having a completed, decorated sample model--and asking you the customer to "trust" them. As far as "build to order" or "pre-order" or whatever one wants to call it, with only a few notable exceptions, it seems we are already there. If I was the manufacturer myself, and had concerns about whether or not a particular model would be a hit enough to justify it, and if it were my own money on the line, I would do it the exact same way: do all the research, prepare the drawings, and prepare everything needed to get a good cost estimate. Then figure out if you have the orders to complete the job and cover the costs. Respectfully submitted-- John Sadly you are probably correct. :-( |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 22, 2015 19:40:09 GMT -8
Modern Oil Tank car.
ACF 4600.
ACF 5250.
No license fees. Just sales.
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Post by stevef45 on Jul 22, 2015 20:12:14 GMT -8
NJ Transit's fee's are reportedly outrageous!!
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