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Post by drolsen on Aug 1, 2015 0:25:33 GMT -8
Al, here's a contemporary prototype Christmas car for you: ELTX 7132Granted, the Santa UFO and futuristic city are a little unusual... Back on topic, I'd love to see MOW examples of these tank cars, if any survived into the '90s. I think Kadee probably could do that with some of their PS-1 box cars, but they probably have plenty of roadnames and schemes to keep them occupied for years without delving into the darker world of rusty, ugly MOW prototypes. Dave
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Aug 1, 2015 7:03:47 GMT -8
Al, here's a contemporary prototype Christmas car for you: ELTX 7132Granted, the Santa UFO and futuristic city are a little unusual... Back on topic, I'd love to see MOW examples of these tank cars, if any survived into the '90s. I think Kadee probably could do that with some of their PS-1 box cars, but they probably have plenty of roadnames and schemes to keep them occupied for years without delving into the darker world of rusty, ugly MOW prototypes. Dave I've seen that hopper some long years ago. It OK but Christmas themes are not for me to recreate.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 1, 2015 9:05:35 GMT -8
Fooooobie refers to a FAKE !! doesn't matter if it is a Prototypical Fake,or a Fantasy Fake. a Fake is a Fake is a Foooooobie !! the Grand Foooooobie will set appointments if needed. Spikre
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Post by lackawanna1223 on Aug 1, 2015 9:50:42 GMT -8
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Post by Spikre on Aug 2, 2015 8:17:33 GMT -8
based on the Journal article: most cars were plain Black,some did have White Domes. many cars had 70 Ton AAR type trucks,Kadee doesn't have that type truck. even more cars had ASF A-3 70 Ton trucks,another truck Kadee doesn't have{yet?} so be prepared for many boring Black cars,many only ran on certain routes in certain areas of the country. many cars shown are post 1950 and look to be closer to the Atlas car. did Journal ever run a follow on article ? don't recall one,but don't have every Journal after this one. Spikre
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 2, 2015 9:40:10 GMT -8
Fooooobie refers to a FAKE !! doesn't matter if it is a Prototypical Fake,or a Fantasy Fake. a Fake is a Fake is a Foooooobie !! the Grand Foooooobie will set appointments if needed. Spikre But, Former Grand Foobie, it appears that all, or almost all, of the Kadee cars you cited are NOT fakes. They are the one, the only, ORIGINALS. Should Athearn, in their near-infinite wisdom, produce a similar scheme on an old blue-box boxcar, THAT would be the fake. The FOOBIE. Say, aren't you supposed to be on your way to Chicago to do some extremely important research? Ed Spokesperson for (new) Grand Foobie
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Post by mlehman on Aug 2, 2015 10:06:29 GMT -8
If foobie = fake, then I tend to wonder why we even needed a new term for it? Fake is fake.
Given that Kadee does not produce the sort of cars that led to the invention of the term foobie in the first place, it doesn't make sense to me to lump it in with all those who are well known for producing cars with faked paint schemes. Kadee puts out a lot of effort to not do that sort of stuff. I'm not sure that putting them in the same box as well-known offenders helps the cause of encouraging vendors to not produce foobies. Maybe Kadee should just start slapping erroneous paint schemes on what they build and increase sales that way, since they're not getting any credit for doing the right thing if summarily classified under the definition foobie = fake?
Besides, how can you fake something that otherwise doesn't exist except as a promotional model paint scheme? No one is being faked out by that.
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Post by atsfan on Aug 2, 2015 11:49:06 GMT -8
If foobie = fake, then I tend to wonder why we even needed a new term for it? Fake is fake. Given that Kadee does not produce the sort of cars that led to the invention of the term foobie in the first place, it doesn't make sense to me to lump it in with all those who are well known for producing cars with faked paint schemes. Kadee puts out a lot of effort to not do that sort of stuff. I'm not sure that putting them in the same box as well-known offenders helps the cause of encouraging vendors to not produce foobies. Maybe Kadee should just start slapping erroneous paint schemes on what they build and increase sales that way, since they're not getting any credit for doing the right thing if summarily classified under the definition foobie = fake? Besides, how can you fake something that otherwise doesn't exist except as a promotional model paint scheme? No one is being faked out by that. Only one person Spike is not giving them credit Not something to base your business on. Collectable train cars have been around 100 years. Thousands enjoy them
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Post by Spikre on Aug 2, 2015 17:28:16 GMT -8
?? why are the Kadee KDC Christmas Cars any different than the cars produced over the years by Con-Cor,AHM,Model Power,Life Like,and others not recalled tonite,but will work on it. of course the Kadee cars are much better models than those produced by others,but the idea is still the same. so we'll just disagree on what these cars fulfill in the market place. Edit-- lets also add Bev-Bel and Greenway BB repaints to this mess. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Aug 2, 2015 17:35:44 GMT -8
another noticeable Trend by Kadee is Copying Cars already Produced by Atlas. PS-2 Covered Hopper,2003 CUFT 2 bay. AAR 2 bay Offset Side Open Hopper. and now this 11,000 Gallon LPG Tank Car. are Atlas cars so poorly done they need to be replaced ? or do Atlas Cars Sell so well, copying them is a Sure Thing ? and yes,Kadee does the Channel ended Early PS-2 not done by Atlas. some thing more to ponder ?? Spikre
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Post by petehuse on Aug 3, 2015 12:25:59 GMT -8
Ok- so I picked up one of these cars last Saturday (1 Aug). I was able to reserve one a few weeks ago, and apparently got one of the few that Caboose received somehow. So, my first impressions are very mixed. First, the details are fantastic, the fine printing, the fine grab irons and "wires", and brake parts are all very well done. Second however, it is not meant to be handled by human hands! The instructions do say to use 2 fingers to pick it up, one on each end of the top of the tank - and they really mean that. Anywhere else, the fine parts seem to easily pop out of their molded pinholes. The longitudinal walkways are a fairly soft plastic, so they are not quite straight, and the supports for them don't seem to attach well. At this time I have decided not to superglue everything in place, but I feel that is what is needed (but it would surely not look great with little shiny specs of cement). So I am a little disappointed, since I have many of their boxcars that are fabulous models. Since they only issued one so far, perhaps they have some bugs to fix?
If anyone else has opinions, sure would like to hear them.
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 3, 2015 14:37:39 GMT -8
Spikre still needs to look at an actual roster of these cars, in the riveted under frame version SHPX had the most cars listed but there are 18 other owner leasers listed. Out of 44 SHPX entries almost all of them were different users that means different styles of paint schemes. Yes most are black but most box cars in the steam and transition eras were some shade of box car red or oxide, also most modern tank cars are black too. As far as the trucks go there were 2 types of trucks used "both were 50 ton trucks" not 70 ton. There are an AAR Spring Plank type and a Double Truss Spring Plankless type. "Fake" means to deceive, fool, not genuine, forgery, or sham. Doing Christmas cars or Specialty cars are none of these definitions. If Spikre doesn't like them then don't buy them. that's his prerogative, we'll sell them to people who can understand their meaning and appreciate their purpose, it's as simple as that.
"petehuse" please contact me off list at mail@kadee.com about your tank car.
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Post by peoriaman on Aug 3, 2015 15:46:28 GMT -8
Wow, who'd of ever thought Spikre had such an axe to grind with Kadee! Betcha he don't even use their couplers...
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Post by champagnetrail on Aug 3, 2015 16:34:54 GMT -8
Sam...
Looking forward to seeing more tank cars. They look great.
What are my chances of someday seeing a plug door version of your 50' PS-1 box with the cushion underframe?
-pat
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 4, 2015 8:22:14 GMT -8
champagnetrail, thanks for your comments. It is possible that at some point we'll do some plug door 50' PS-1s. We've talked about this many times, however, we've always had other priorities and projects that were more important. We do have a very long list of projects we want to do and they are listed by priority. So don't hold your breath but keep your eyes open.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
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Post by Spikre on Aug 4, 2015 11:40:13 GMT -8
Sam, the complete RMJ article is on hand here. most of the Post 1950 cars have 70Ton trucks,most of which are ASF A-3s. 70 Ton ASF A-3s came in at least 3 common sideframe styles depending on who and when they were cast. all are noticeably Heavier looking than 50 Ton trucks. SHPX: cars were leased for a set time,but leases could be broken,so an as built car had a set Lessee, but after 2 years it could revert back to SHPX, get a different long term Lessee, or even be sold. many times who the car was leased to was in rather small print some where on the tank, if not it was in SHPX Pool Service with spot leases lasting as short as 1 trip,to a set time,have to read the car for that sort of info. but as the cars aged many ended up back at SHPX as the Operators would get newer cars for their fleets. this can of worms is still open. Spikre
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Post by PennCentral on Aug 4, 2015 12:50:18 GMT -8
Spikre,
Not sure why I'm bothering but I'm trying to figure out what it is you're so pissed about. Maybe I need to get mad about something but I'm still not clear on exactly what it is. Did Kadee in some way personally harm you by tooling up a tank car? Were you forced at some point to buy a Kadee christmas car? Are you upset that Kadee tooled an earlier and different 11,000 insulated car than Atlas? It's pretty clear it is NOT the same model as the Atlas so not sure the issue there. Those PS-2 covered hoppers you were ranting about earlier, what exactly is wrong with those? Atlas tooled ONE version of the PS-2 and put every road name and paint scheme they could on it regardless of whether it matched the version of the PS-2 that they tooled. Kadee on the other hand has tooled what? Three? Four versions of the PS-2 and applied the appropriate schemes only to the appropriate body styles? Are you angry with Kadee for going the extra mile but OK with Atlas producing what in are in effect "foobies" on their PS-2 when they paint it in a scheme that does not match their body style? Those "boring black tanks cars", those are the majority of tank cars in the 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and even today. Anything other than black tank cars are the exception in the big picture. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate interesting paint schemes too but a layout full of the unique cars begins to look like a tin plate setup. Does it really come down to the fact that you want a 70-ton truck from Kadee.
Still unsure what the big deal is, Jason Cook
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Post by sp8299 on Aug 4, 2015 13:16:04 GMT -8
champagnetrail, thanks for your comments. It is possible that at some point we'll do some plug door 50' PS-1s. We've talked about this many times, however, we've always had other priorities and projects that were more important. We do have a very long list of projects we want to do and they are listed by priority. So don't hold your breath but keep your eyes open. Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products Sam, if you guys do a plug door version of your 50' PS-1, I'll name my first born after you!
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Post by Spikre on Aug 4, 2015 13:43:35 GMT -8
Jason, just cant understand why with all the Tank Cars not done yet Kadee does a car that is basically the same as the Atlas car, why ? as for the PS-2s,the Kadee car is superior to the Atlas car which is a Late 2003 CUFT version. Atlas has done early paint on the cars,wrong,but well done,it is up to the purchaser to buy or pass on them. Atlas has also done a number of Greenville GV-2 schemes on the cars, again Pass or Purchase. will we ever see a GV-2 done correctly ? not likely,but knowing the main differences does make purchasing the cars a stress full event here, but this is also up to someone looking at said cars. does one want a 30 car Cement Hopper train ? or is a 12 to 15 car train acceptable, or even affordable ? in a moving train can the differences between a Kadee or Atlas PS-2 be easily seen ? then add in typical Cement weathering, and the old Roundhouse Covered Hoppers can fit rite in behind the Kadee PS-2s. Spikre
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Post by PennCentral on Aug 4, 2015 14:49:38 GMT -8
At the end of the day, Kadee's choices of where to allocate their resources are just that, their choices. I suspect part of the decision was based on that very article you continue to refer to. Those RMJ articles are a goldmine of information. That said, I really have no idea how Kadee made their decision to tool this particular tank car but I have a feeling that it's not going to hurt their bottom line. Kadee's business model appears very different from the companies that pay someone else to manufacture products for them in China. I would suspect you'd have greater success lobbying ExactRail, Scale Trains, or even Atlas to get whatever tank car you're after. Providing a well researched project pack with rosters, lots of quality photos, and other reference material can't hurt either.
Correct GV-2? Sure hope so but Atlas going Foobierific with GV-2 schemes on their PS-2 doesn't help the cause. The people that KNOW AND CARE about the differences between the PS-2 and the GV-2 will support an accurate and detailed GV-2. But the overwhelming majority of casual buyers will see that nice new GV-2 that will cost more than Atlas' 20 year old PS-2 and say "I already have that paint scheme and it cost half the price when I bought it in 1998..." I have no expectation that the GV-2 is on Kadee's radar but I hope Athearn, Scale Trains or Exact Rail tools one up. I sure don't want a much need model like this to wind up looking like the old MDC PS-2 or even the Atlas PS-2. My eyes are still pretty good so I can tell the difference between the old MDC, the Atlas, and the Kadee. I prefer the Kadee. Rather have fewer and nicer but that's my choice. I also completely understand the argument for more but less detailed. It's all up to the buyer.
Kadee is no longer the price leader on new models anyway. BLMA's just announced PD covered hopper is $50. Spring Mills Depot NACC PD-3000 is $55. Intermountain autoracks are $97! That's more than twice the price of the new Kadee tank car. Accurate models cost a lot more to produce than semi generic ones with any and every scheme slapped on them. You have to make choices. Is it more important to you to have a 30-car cement train made up of models tooled a generation ago or would you rather have a 15-car train with better detailed models? Like you said, can you tell the difference when watching a whole train roll by? Back to that Kadee tank car, you think they'll make one for christmas full of hot cocoa? Would go great with a covered hopper full of mini marshmallows and a boxcar load of cookies.
Jason
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Post by grahamline on Aug 4, 2015 15:44:53 GMT -8
Be nice if Kadee, Atlas, Athearn and the others got on board with Accurail in offering renumber decals on backgrounds to match their cars. It could solve a lot of handwringing and inventory problems. Except for people who don't do decalling.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 4, 2015 15:47:31 GMT -8
SNIP Back to that Kadee tank car, you think they'll make one for christmas full of hot cocoa? Would go great with a covered hopper full of mini marshmallows and a boxcar load of cookies. Jason Jason, Sounds like a great idea for a gift pack. Maybe Kadee can team up with that other Oregon company, Harry & David? 3 Kadee cars accompanied by a nice spread of munchies. Why they could even make one in select real roadnames, instead of holiday cars, to satisfy picky eaters like Spikre?
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Post by markfj on Aug 5, 2015 4:04:48 GMT -8
A couple months ago, I won an undecorated Kadee boxcar with decals on eBay for a whopping $5 (score!). Anyways, the decal set appears to be manufactured by Kadee, so I’m guessing they offered these decals at some time in the past for undecorated kits. Unfortunately, I can’t use the set on the car because it is for a 40’ car and the undecorated car is 50’. Still, it was a great deal and looks like Kadee can make nice decals.
While we’re asking for things from our wish lists from Kadee; how about some Penn Central 50’ boxcars?
Also, I would like to know which type of glue is the best to use on their detail parts. I think the material is Delrin or something similar, but I’m not sure.
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Post by mlehman on Aug 5, 2015 5:59:41 GMT -8
Mark, That was a score I have a set of Kadee #3112 Rio Grande decals for a 50' boxcar. It lists the undec car to be used as either #6698 or #6700, 15' odd door, low tack boards, "Ark Slope with Lip." It includes some DF markings. "63531" is the primary road number on it, but it could also be changed with the number jungle included on the sheet. They're new. I may have opened the package at some time to inspect them, because there's a piece of tape sealing the bottom of the package, but the sheet is uncut/unused. Got plenty of these cars for current use and sold the undec Kadee car they were going on at some point. Be happy to trade for whatever 40' decal set you have if the idea of your car being a Rio Grande works for you and it matches the called for 50' car you have. Send me a message with your address and I'll drop these in the mail to you, as well as send my addy so you can send whatever decals you have -- I'll be happy with whatever decals you have. If not, there's another datapoint for someone who might want to come up with some Kadee decals. Looks like they're all sold out of them, except for some striping, etc. They do offer decal paper to print your own, in case that appeals to you. www.kadee.com/htmbord/decals.htm
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Post by dti406 on Aug 5, 2015 6:45:38 GMT -8
champagnetrail, thanks for your comments. It is possible that at some point we'll do some plug door 50' PS-1s. We've talked about this many times, however, we've always had other priorities and projects that were more important. We do have a very long list of projects we want to do and they are listed by priority. So don't hold your breath but keep your eyes open. Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products While your at it about about a 12 panel 40' PS1, the C&O, NKP RI & SCL had those! Rick J
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Post by markfj on Aug 5, 2015 8:56:53 GMT -8
Mark, That was a score I have a set of Kadee #3112 Rio Grande decals for a 50' boxcar. It lists the undec car to be used as either #6698 or #6700, 15' odd door, low tack boards, "Ark Slope with Lip." It includes some DF markings. "63531" is the primary road number on it, but it could also be changed with the number jungle included on the sheet. They're new. I may have opened the package at some time to inspect them, because there's a piece of tape sealing the bottom of the package, but the sheet is uncut/unused. Got plenty of these cars for current use and sold the undec Kadee car they were going on at some point. Be happy to trade for whatever 40' decal set you have if the idea of your car being a Rio Grande works for you and it matches the called for 50' car you have. Send me a message with your address and I'll drop these in the mail to you, as well as send my addy so you can send whatever decals you have -- I'll be happy with whatever decals you have. If not, there's another datapoint for someone who might want to come up with some Kadee decals. Looks like they're all sold out of them, except for some striping, etc. They do offer decal paper to print your own, in case that appeals to you. www.kadee.com/htmbord/decals.htmMike, Thanks for the offer of a trade, but I’m going to keep the decals and source an undecorated 40’ kit. There are several up on eBay now with low starting bids. The set is for Erie and although Kadee did offer that road name before on the 40’s, it’s hard to find them at reasonable prices now. Some say the transition era stuff is fading as “the” popular segment in the hobby, but certain roads still command higher prices. I would like to see another run of Erie boxcars, Reading hoppers, and more C&O or B&O. That’s just me; the actual market for these roads may be small so Kadee may not do another run for any of them. I'm currently selling off older stuff like BB Athearn cars to buy more Kadee and other higher end models (e.g. Tangent, Exactrail, etc.). I've built kits for years and really do not mind spending $30-40 per car now because I know how much work is involved in getting a highly detailed, accurately painted, quality car. Again, that's just me. Mark J.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 5, 2015 11:10:15 GMT -8
so HO needs Black indescript Tank Cars that cant be handled by Human Hands ? that is an Innovation ? FWIW -- do use Kadee couplers on locos,mainly #-5s,all with the Trip pins removed, on Locos. that's the Standard here,but am experimenting with the really Short Shank Proto Max's on Cab Units,they seem to be good for close coupling. havnt tried any Scale Sized Kadees yet,but have installed a few Proto sized Accu-Mates on Frieght cars,so far they seem too small to stay reliably coupled. Edit -- am thinking of trying the Kadee Whisker Style couplers in the Kato NYC GP35,what would work best with no plow in the way ? Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Aug 5, 2015 11:12:25 GMT -8
Mark, passed on the Un-Numbered Erie PS-1,No Collectors Value in that One !! Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Aug 5, 2015 12:36:35 GMT -8
Mark, No problem, sounds like you have a plan. Just wanted to help if I was able. Like you, that's been my strategy on improving the quality of my fleet. Gotta sell a lot of Blue Box to get a decent car, but like you I know what's involved in that and appreciate it. BTW, not all of the Kadee stuff is Delrin, but I'm not sure what all they use besides styrene. Might be worth a call to sort out. If it looks like a press- or snap-in fit, it probably is and your option to do that or ad a little dab of glue for security's sake. Spikre, If you want scale-sized stuff, that's what Kadee is offering. I'm certain they're using the right/best plastics for durability, but no matter what it's made of it's going to be more fragile than the thicker stuff we're used to. But even ordinary tank cars tend to be tender. I'm always breaking off ladders and platforms and need to find a better technique of getting them in and out of storage drawers and onto the layout safely. I used to be OK, but things are shakier than they used to be and the grip less certain.
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 5, 2015 13:11:29 GMT -8
Spikre, is the RMJ article you mention in the July 2003 issue? We have rosters, drawings, photos, an ACF tank car book, and a lot of other information that indicates that most if not all of these cars, within the production dates 1947 to 1954, have a 100,000 lb. capacity which requires only a 50 ton truck not a 70 ton. The July 2003 article has a photo of SHPX 6733 on page 53 and it has a capacity of over 50 ton and is equipped with 70 ton trucks. However, this car is also built in 1964 far past the last production dates of the cars in question. Most the other photos of cars in the article show 50 ton capacity and trucks. The author, Richard Hendrickson, did not even mention trucks in the text of the article.
Sorry guys but we've already completed the art work on this years Christmas car. It is not a tank car full of hot chocolate but that's a great idea for 2016's car. Spikre might even like it.
Sam Kadee Quality Products
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