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Post by Spikre on Aug 5, 2015 16:01:37 GMT -8
Sam, don't have the Ed Kaminski ACF Tank Car Book, or His ACF History 1899-1999. do have a different book by Him that is excellent, but not many Tank cars in it. will go over the RMJ article again. have You considered that sometimes higher rated trucks would be put under some cars for safety reasons ? or that ACF stuck with Archbar Trucks until about the last day they were Legal to be installed on New SHPX/ACFX Tank cars ? do have Train Shed "Tank Cars, 1919-1943", there are several early 11,000 gallon cars shown in that to add to the RMJ article. glad You do have the ACF Tank Car book, but remember a car leased from SHPX/ACFX during 6/50 may be under a different lease by 6/51,or even sold off. so that does give You more cars to produce, but they can be very Time Specific. what are the chances for the Greenville 2003 CUFT 2 bay GV-2,and 2893 CUFT 3 bay GV-3 ?? Spikre
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 6, 2015 7:05:56 GMT -8
Spikre, It's impossible to say what an individual railroad might do for the sake of safety. However, generally speaking, more than likely they wouldn't change trucks on a car unless it was absolutely necessary. Most railroads were more concerned in saving costs and the bottom line. So I would imagine that if a railroad changed the trucks on a car from a 50 ton to a 70 ton it was because the car itself was upgraded or modified to carry more than the original designed load. As I mentioned before we wouldn't have built a freight car unless it had the production numbers for a very long run. We're not choosing cars that Atlas has done for any reason. We have a lot of different reasons we've picked the cars we do. Although we can use some of the tooling from our current PS-2 for both the GV-2/3 and the 2893 cuft PS-2 I doubt that we'll do these cars for at least a few more years.
Sam, Kadee Quality Products
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Post by Spikre on Aug 8, 2015 11:13:03 GMT -8
Sam, you are correct,trucks are rarely changed unless the particular sideframe is prone to self distruction,or the car is rebuilt and up-graded like Burlington did with its PS-2 2893s that got replacement one hundred ton roller bearing trucks,and this was only 15 cars out of 30. but sometimes cars are built with heavier trucks when there is a possibility they can be over loaded with a different commodity,or haul different commodities during different times of the year. can see at least 3 cars in the RMJ with 70 ton trucks,and the car with National C-1s might be a 70 ton truck ? the AAR trucks do seem to be 50 ton trucks,its the ASF A-3s that are split,some look to be 50 tonners,some 70 tonners. just because a car is rated at 50 tons doesn't mean the trucks are 50 ton trucks. how about Kadee doing the As delivered 40' PS-1 cars in LOT-8160 ? 100 8' door cars on ASF A-3 trucks,but the PS Cushion underframe could be a problem ? will post the list of Owners/quantities if you want them ? Spikre
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 10, 2015 9:52:44 GMT -8
Sprikre, The 8160 lot is out of the question. It would require at least a complete new under-frame and body and the costs can not be justified by only 100 total cars. We'd more than likely do the pre 1950 PS-1 versions than the few cushion U/F 40' PS-1s. What do you see or what are you looking at to determine some of the ASF A-3 trucks are 70 ton and not 50 ton? We look close at the photos and compare it with the builders documentation.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 10, 2015 12:19:25 GMT -8
?? Sam, outside of the bottom gussets to line up with the Cushion Underfame,what else is different about the Lot-8160 bodies ? Kadee could likely recoup the tooling costs on the NYC cars if done 1st.a unique Pacemaker paint scheme on the only PS-1 Pacemaker car bodies. PRR had a unique version of the Shadow Keystone and Calendar lettering. then add GN,N&W,Erie,BAR. but GN and BAR may be better doing the repainted cars. maybe am forgetting a road or 2,will look at the list later. A-3 trucks: with ASF A-3s,the top cord of most of the 50 ton trucks were much lighter than the 70 ton versions. after ASF let Scullin and Gould cast A-3s there some other differences, but originally only ASF cast the trucks. the 50 ton versions were mostly the same,but the 70 ton trucks had more differences and a clearance version that was different on the top cord,flatter. not as many differences as the Barber S-2 family,but there are some. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Aug 11, 2015 10:24:35 GMT -8
Sam, keep this list for future reference: PS-1,Lot 8160,,blt 2/54. A- BAR 5 cars,4500-4505,but that is 6 cars,one end of this is wrong,but which ? B- WP 10 cars,1961-1970. C- NYC 25 cars,175000-175024 D- N&W 5 cars,53995-53999 E- C&O 10 cars,2990-2999 F- Erie 10 cars,84000-84009 G- PRR 20 cars,47000-47019 H- GN 15 cars,21950-21964 all cars Identical. 8' Superior doors, ASF A-3 50 ton solid bearing trucks all had P-S Cushion Underframe. only the paint was different. early Pool cars. Spikre
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 11, 2015 12:03:57 GMT -8
Spikre, Thanks for the 40' PS-1 Cushion U/F cars but I should have mentioned that we already have that info, thanks again. The way our 40 foot bodies are made would require a complete new body for the different tabs along the side sills this and a complete new under frame is simply to time consuming and expensive to justify the costs of just 100 cars. Even with a NYC Pacemaker scheme, PRR, and WP cars it's still not enough. Most if not all 70 ton ASF A-3 trucks had a longer wheel base than 50 ton trucks. The actual side frame cord thickness may or may not be different between the two. You'd really have to find several dimensional drawings from ASF to compare the cord thickness. You really can't depend on a visual look unless the trucks were new and setting alone without being mounted under a car.
Sam Kadee
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Post by bar on Aug 11, 2015 13:10:08 GMT -8
Sam, thanks to Kadee for the repainted BAR PS-1s, maybe you could offer them with the outside frame plug doors, full height ladders and roofwalks, large BAR lettering, and 6200-6224 with solid bearing trucks? Also, galvanized roofs. There's quite a bit of variation for that one carbody. Thanks! users.silcon.com/~lgoss/barpage7.htm
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 12, 2015 7:48:16 GMT -8
bar, In order for us to produce an "in service" car we need really good photos that we can read the data as best as possible. We have only a few photos of the BAR cars you mention, even the ones we've done there are very few photos.
Sam Kadee
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Post by Spikre on Aug 12, 2015 11:27:50 GMT -8
Sam, NYC cars not only were in Pacemaker,and a unique version of that, but Original Jade Green with Black Roofs,later bleached out Jade with or with out black roofs,then PC green. GN had the Orange and Green Loader scheme applied after delivery in plain boxcar/oxide red,maybe later Jade Rocky cars,then possibly in Big Sky blue before BN Green. but guess it isn't worth producing the most unique 40' PS-1s ? Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Aug 12, 2015 11:41:28 GMT -8
Sam, don't really look at the length of 50 or 70 ton trucks as most 50s are 5'6",most 70s are 5'8". look at the size of the Journal Boxes and the heaviness of the side frame casting,easier to just look at the capy of the car. National made a number of 5'6" 70 ton B-1s before going to 5'8" side frames. then there are the 5' 70 Ton Ore car trucks in most common designs. now and then 5'10" 70 ton trucks show up on some car orders. or 6' 100 ton trucks on many Canadian Cylinder Grain Covered hoppers for use on light rail grain branch lines. but with out the car specs by the builders or RRs its mainly guessing, but experienced guessing that can be surprising when the facts do turn up. it is nice to be able to walk up to a car,write down the foundry data on the side frames when possible. have done this with several Heavy Duty flats on the sideing here delivering transformers to the local power company. that data has been printed here,look for "Red and Ready",or another thread on a QTTX car if remembering that one correctly ? Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Aug 12, 2015 12:01:58 GMT -8
?? Sam, if Kadee doesn't want to produce the most unique 40' PS-1 Box cars, how about the 2nd most unique 40' PS-1s,the Rivited Side cars ? there should have been at least 3000 or more,but havnt looked at that article for awhile. Chicago & North Western seemed to have the most,but there were other owners with varing amounts. but adding the Rivits may need new sides ? no Cushion Underframes to worry about. another interesting PS-1 one off batch of cars. Spikre
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 13, 2015 7:36:27 GMT -8
Spikre, It's not a matter "wanting" it's a matter of cost recovery compared to cost investment, it's call business and we've been in this business since 1946 and we have a pretty good idea of what were doing, at least we're still in business and doing quite well. As I think I mentioned before freight cars are a secondary product for us, if they were our only product or mainline product I'm sure things would be quite different. As far as the trucks go when you have the factory and the particular railroad's documentation of the equipment used on their cars that's usually the definitive source. Looking at photos for the answers usually, as you mentioned, is guess work and one of the last resources when finding accurate information. Not that this is wrong, it's just comparative to you basing the tank car trucks being 70 ton on the photos in magazines when we have the actual factory documentation and builders photos and the expert historical resources of many renowned authors and historical societies.
We have looked into doing the riveted side PS-1s but since modelers have the option of making rivets in different ways we've decided that the riveted cars just are not a high priority as other products and other freight car types are. We do receive a constant flow of requests for new products and freight cars and we actually take these serious so we do a lot of research into what products to work on and get into the market place.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
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Post by Spikre on Aug 14, 2015 11:45:45 GMT -8
Sam, will throw out one more 40' PS-1 variant, the 10' cars. Lackawanna and New Haven had early ones. B&O showing their Ostrich Tendencies stayed with the 10' height into 1957,and for special charm gave the last order Over Hanging Roofs, something not too common on 40' PS-1s over the years. so am going to guess these arnt on Kadee's Radar either. am curious of how Kadee went from Common cars to rather uncommon cars like the 11000 Gallon Tank cars ? Spikre
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Post by stevewagner on Aug 17, 2015 6:14:47 GMT -8
The tank car model Kadee announced August 13 for shipment in November will wear the classic sort of lettering I remember from the 1950's, when I first started paying attention to individual freight cars. The car will be black (except for the manway "dome", which was white on many of the ACF 11,000 gallon cars meant to carry liquefied petroleum gas, at least) with plain white sans serif lettering for the lessee, with the reporting marks and car number under the part left of the car's center as seen broadside and its location under the part on the right, with no herald or slogan. In this case, it's for the Texas Natural Gasoline Corp., Tulsa, Oklahoma. Most of the models of similar cars Atlas has produced wear somewhat fancier paint jobs. I hope to be able to add one of the newly announced Kadee cars to my roster; it'll probably replace an Athearn "chemical tank car" decorated by Branchline Trains in a slightly later Texgas paint scheme.
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 17, 2015 8:29:41 GMT -8
Spikre, yes the 10'high PS-1 have never been considered, again, there just wasn't enough of them for us to invest in. There is one series of LV PS-1s we have not done from PS lot 5970 series 62500-62999, 500 cars built in 9-50. We have not done this car because it has a seven foot seven panel Superior doors. These LV cars are the only 40 PS-1 that we can do that had this door. We just won't invest the tooling for a door just for one road and one series of cars. Perhaps if we decide to do some of the pre 1950 PS-1s, which LV had another series of cars, we'll door the Superior door. The B&O PS-1s with the over hanging roof were actually PS-1 "kits" that the B&O built themselves. That's why this series of B&O cars are not listed in the Pullman lot number books and rosters. I still don't think you have looked at the total number of these tank cars to call them uncommon. Another item to look at is we also want to have a bigger selection of "types" of cars. We have box cars, covered and open hoppers, and now a tank car. We may or may not look at doing a flat car or gondola next but it would continue with a variety of car styles too.
stevewagner, We are certainly are planning on the colorful paint schemes found on some of these 11,000 gal. tank cars. So be patient they eventually will come.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
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Post by markfj on Aug 17, 2015 9:08:51 GMT -8
Sam,
An LV boxcar would be great, but your reasoning about tooling costs for a single series of car makes sense.
I don’t know if you saw my comments earlier, but what are your thoughts on offering something in Penn Central paint?
Thanks, MJ
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 18, 2015 7:35:10 GMT -8
markfj, We do have plans for some PC paint schemes in our 50' PS-1 box cars. However, we are limited to only a few good photos that we can use. The photos have to be clear enough to read the small data printed on the cars.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
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Post by mlehman on Aug 18, 2015 10:29:19 GMT -8
Since this is a hobby that seems to suggest people still build stuff, it probably also pays to be realistic about what might or might not be produced -- and what you can do about it. Obviously, some things you may just have to get out the paint and decals and go to it, as well as making mods to your taste. And for some things, you may have to accept stand-ins. No shame in that, although sometimes it seems like some people favor that. I've got my share of pretty darn accurate cars -- and some that are at best just stand-ins. I run them together. I even take pictures of that and post them on the internet for the world to see. No shame at all... I'm shameless.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 19, 2015 13:22:38 GMT -8
Sam, will post a few other 40' PS-1 variants that Kadee likely wont do unless someplace freezes over. 4 Door cars,not overly common, but C&NW and Seaboard had them, maybe several shortlines also ? Plug door cars, mainly TLDX,but believe that MDT had some, tricky part with them is that both 10' and 10'6" bodies were used, with insulation the interiors were lower. and saved the Best for Last: the Outside Braced 6' Door SCL Koalin Roof Hatch cars.think these were only built for SCL and one of the predecessor roads. yes these cars are too rare and distinctive to produce, but bet Bill McKean would have tried to produce them. Spikre
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 20, 2015 6:44:34 GMT -8
Spikre, Those are even more obscure and odd 40 foot PS-1 box cars than you mentioned before. You already have our answer and reasons and I don't know why you'd bother mentioning them to me, we're not going to even try to produce such odd cars and we not going to feel guilty about it either, it's just not that cold yet....if it was we'd have a lot of other things to worry about that's a lot more important than odd freight cars. The low number cars and the odd types are left up to the smaller manufacturers and resin kit makers, we'll leave it at that and I hope you do too.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
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Post by champagnetrail on Aug 20, 2015 17:10:46 GMT -8
Sam...
What about the 50' combination plug/sliding door PS-1 box? Not sure if enough roads had them, though.
Just keep doing the 60s/70s repaints and you will keep getting my business...
Oh yeah, and a 100T solid bearing truck would be nice, too!!!
-pat
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Post by Spikre on Aug 20, 2015 18:07:10 GMT -8
Sam, actually am trying to encourage others to try to build some of these less common 40' PS-1s. with the exception of Lot 8160 which should be a good seller for a number of years. Stan R. from Resin Parts has built some of these cars,and may still have Parts to make the conversions easier. pat, which 100 Ton Solid Bearing Truck: Barber S-2. ASF A-3. National C-1. Buckeye Cushion Ride. there may be a couple of other 4 wheel 100 ton Solid Bearing trucks Trucks ? maybe contacting Mr. {Dennis} Lippert at Tahoe Model Works may be a good idea ? Edit- thanks Sam,couldnt find the Tour of Tahoe in MRN easily. so it is Brian Lippert,who is Dennis Lippert ? or is this just a mistaken ID thing ? Spikre
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Post by sroc99 on Aug 21, 2015 6:35:11 GMT -8
Champagnetrail, Pat, The combo and full plug door 50 foot PS-1s are certainly a possibility. Trucks on the other hand are presently an "as time allows project" unless we are doing a particular freight car that needs this type of truck. Right now we're finishing up our fourth "G" scale truck (1:29 ratio) and we have a number of projects that presently are a bit of a higher priority than some more HO scale trucks.
Spikre, That's Brian Leppert at Tahoe Model works and he's trying to retire or at least semi retire so he may or may not be interested in doing any new trucks.
Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products
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Post by GP40P-2 on Aug 21, 2015 11:00:13 GMT -8
Wow, six pages into this thread on a new high quality model, and no one has posted any prototype pictures, especially any operating in the 1960's and 1970's where a majority of people are now modeling, or had any discussion about the operations of these cars. Okay, there were a few builders photos back on page one or two, on the few Trainlife pages that would actually open without the red X.
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Post by Spikre on Aug 21, 2015 11:27:46 GMT -8
gp40p2, in the 50s and 60s these sort of cars just blended into the background scenery. a reason not many took pics of ANY Freight cars too often back then. but sure that Red Davis did. Spikre
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