jhuteman
New Member
Whut cho doin there Bo?
Posts: 46 
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Post by jhuteman on Apr 28, 2016 6:51:30 GMT -8
I like the way the NMRA has broken it down into chewable chunks with the 'Golden Spike' and that kind of thing. It's less intimidating that way, one step at a time. Even a ham handed, broken fingered, shaky old fool like ME can realistically do this!
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Post by gasmith on Apr 30, 2016 2:41:08 GMT -8
MMR and a buck gets you a cup of coffee. No interest at all in the program or the NMRA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 10:53:34 GMT -8
MMR and a buck gets you a cup of coffee. No interest at all in the program or the NMRA. Being a MMR means among other things that you are qualified to teach other's about model railroading. Being able to teach a new generation about railroading is just one reason to join the NMRA, a way to give back to the the community |
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Post by Christian on Apr 30, 2016 14:44:11 GMT -8
MMR and a buck gets you a cup of coffee. No interest at all in the program or the NMRA. Being a MMR means among other things that you are qualified to teach other's about model railroading. I hope you did not mean this to be as arrogant as it reads. |
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Post by Brakie on Apr 30, 2016 15:34:18 GMT -8
MMR and a buck gets you a cup of coffee. No interest at all in the program or the NMRA. Being a MMR means among other things that you are qualified to teach other's about model railroading. Being able to teach a new generation about railroading is just one reason to join the NMRA, a way to give back to the the community Being a MMR means very little when it comes to teaching since some can't tell the difference between a protolance or freelance model railroad there is a difference between the two. The new generation would probably walked out of a MMR clinic on gluing sticks on fiber board because the majority is more interested in correct cars and locomotives and already knows a Peco switch is the better made switch and Micro Engineering makes good flex track and there's plenty of free how to tutorials on you tube covering everything from track laying to weathering cars and locomotives. The day of sticky fingers from gluing ties and hand laying track is slowly fading into the history books as the RTR market clearly shows.. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 16:41:20 GMT -8
Being a MMR means among other things that you are qualified to teach other's about model railroading. I hope you did not mean this to be as arrogant as it reads. The first M in MMR stands for Master. For 1000's of years, Master means teacher or leader. The NMRA didnt come up with a certificate called AMR, for Average Model Railroader. |
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Post by Brakie on Apr 30, 2016 16:56:54 GMT -8
A master was good in his field and not in the overall scheme of all areas. A "Expert" slowly replace the masters since they have a much wider(supposedly) base knowledge.
I could teach a MMR about general railroading since I have had boots on the ground and I see the mistakes these masters and experts make when they have a throttle in hand..
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Post by wp8thsub on Apr 30, 2016 20:25:24 GMT -8
The first M in MMR stands for Master. For 1000's of years, Master means teacher or leader. The NMRA didnt come up with a certificate called AMR, for Average Model Railroader. No, but they might as well have. The "master" part is just as much about playing the game as demonstrating any sort of mastery of hobby skills, maybe more so. Maybe you're impressed by the title next to someone's name. I'm not. |
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Post by gasmith on May 2, 2016 15:36:50 GMT -8
MMR and a buck gets you a cup of coffee. No interest at all in the program or the NMRA. Being a MMR means among other things that you are qualified to teach other's about model railroading. Being able to teach a new generation about railroading is just one reason to join the NMRA, a way to give back to the the community I never knew that required a certification. I'll continue to freely share my knowledge accumulated over nearly 50 years in the hobby, IMHO longevity qualifies me. |
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Post by fr8kar on May 2, 2016 17:10:31 GMT -8
I never get tired of this discussion. It's always good for a laugh.
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Post by riogrande on May 3, 2016 5:28:46 GMT -8
Certifications have their use, but mainly to make a living or get a better job. These days you can get certifications to help qualify you to get a good job in lieu of say, a bachelor of science or a master of science degree. Certifications for a hobby? I've never seen the value in it; a hobby is mainly for personal enjoyment, relaxation and a diversion from the stresses of life. I suppose if one were going to go into model railroading professionally - it might not hurt to have an MMR. And if one has the money and time, there is nothing wrong with pursuing an MMR for personal satisfaction.
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Post by mlehman on May 3, 2016 7:49:21 GMT -8
I'm not quite sure what to make of folks who feel threatened somehow by the idea of others trying to improve their own skills and to help others do so. If it's not your thing, why waste effort dismissing the idea?
Jim does have a good point on why some may pursue MMR for reasons beyond the purely altruistic. There are a number of manufacturers and vendors who are MMRs. It's not a prerequisite, certainly, as anyone can set up business or build a layout without holding a MMR. But a number do take that path. You'd think that's bad for our hobby, based on some of the comments here. I'd simply suggest that any program that encourages the development and teaching of skills is on the whole a good thing for our hobby.
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Post by Brakie on May 3, 2016 11:16:25 GMT -8
Mike,I bet that MMR certificate won't get the MMR a free cup of coffee at the National Convention no more then my Silver Star(my young and dumb award) gets me a free cup of coffee at the VA hospital or any veterans organization.
MMR certificate doesn't worry me since I might be far more knowledgeable modeler then the MMR.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 3, 2016 11:24:44 GMT -8
I'm not quite sure what to make of folks who feel threatened somehow by the idea of others trying to improve their own skills and to help others do so. If it's not your thing, why waste effort dismissing the idea? I just read through this whole topic, and I found nothing that indicated there were any folks who feel threatened by others trying to improve their skills and/or to help others. Perhaps I missed them. Some examples, perhaps? Ed |
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Post by mlehman on May 3, 2016 12:11:37 GMT -8
Most any comment that drops by to say what a worthless thing a MMR is qualifies. Now if someone wanted to explain such an off the cuff opinion's basis, it might be a cogent and informed observation. Or maybe not... I will admit that I'm not sure quite what to make about Larry's idea they should get free coffee?!?  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 3, 2016 13:35:31 GMT -8
Most any comment that drops by to say what a worthless thing a MMR is qualifies. Sorry. I just don't see the connection. If "Dave" says an MMR is worthless, he MUST also feel threatened by people who want to improve their skills? And he MUST be threatened by people who want to helping people? Dave is clearly a pretty miserable human being. Is it at all possible to have a Dave who absolutely LOVES that people want to improve their modeling skills? And, for some reason, thinks an MMR is worthless. I do wonder if there are people who DON'T want to improve their skills and also think MMR is a fantastic thing. All kinds of logical possibilities here. Ed PS: Of course, Dave could think it's worthless for Dave. Dave oughta know. And Dave may feel he has no way to know if it's worthless to anyone else. Dave's a thinker, you see. |
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Post by Brakie on May 3, 2016 14:29:24 GMT -8
Most any comment that drops by to say what a worthless thing a MMR is qualifies. Now if someone wanted to explain such an off the cuff opinion's basis, it might be a cogent and informed observation. Or maybe not... I will admit that I'm not sure quite what to make about Larry's idea they should get free coffee?!? Mike, That free coffee statement is from WWII veterans and is still in effect today. Its true not even the MOH will get you a free beer or coffee at the VFW or a free coffee at the VA hospital cafeteria. I've met two MMR over the years and both acted like their MMR certificates was the MOH and they was better then the group they was teaching on laying and ballasting track and neither was all that good at ballasting around switching in fact they didn't ballast the points.. Even I know how to ballast and tamp the points. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 3, 2016 15:21:29 GMT -8
Its true not even the MOH will get you a free beer or coffee at the VFW or a free coffee at the VA hospital cafeteria. Odd. At this house, it'll get you a real nice Martini. But, I hear ya. Ed |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on May 3, 2016 19:29:29 GMT -8
In general, I applaud the NMRA's MMR program. It's a way to try to raise the bar for anyone who wants to improve their skills, something we all should strive for. However, it seems that the majority of people who actually go out and get their MMR seem to use it as a huge ego boost. So while I think the goals are good, the results haven't always been.
Not to say that there isn't some form of anti-skill feelings in our hobby. How many times have we all seen folks make snide comments about "rivet counters"? Those are the ones that most dislike even the idea of an MMR. They'd dislike an MMR based on his MMR alone, having not even met the person.
Brakie,
Those who are awarded the MOH get an additional monthly pension of $1,259, a 10% increase in their retirement pay, and special privileges at PX's and BX's. Also, their children get into any military academy without regard to nominations or quota requirements, plus a few other perks. Just sayin'.
And your Silver Star? Thank you, Larry. You didn't get that in a cereal box. So thank you for hanging your rear end out on the line.
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Post by mlehman on May 3, 2016 23:21:10 GMT -8
I think there's a world of difference between holding a MMR and earning a MOH or just being a vet in general. Guess I don't see the comparison.
Sure, there's always folks who let what medals they earned, career achievements they are awarded, or the degree they hold go to their head. The same is true for folks in all walks of life. But to generalize that into being something unhealthy that rots the honors justly earned by the rest of those who hold them is a bit unfair to everyone else.
I just find the snappy negativity that goes unexplained or unjustified to be unfair on two levels. First, without a supporting justification, it's pretty much trolling and not at all informative, presuming that was the goal of the comments being made in the first place. Second, when you dismiss a virtually all volunteer organization, you're painting with a pretty wide brush that gives no one the chance to address any deficiencies, seemingly presuming that whatever is wrong in the eyes of the critic simply can't be fixed.
There's no doubt that in a volunteer organization like the NMRA, people make mistakes or fail to follow through. Such things can be corrected, but only if they're actually described, rather than just vaguely dissed, assuming there's merit to them.
More often than not, whatever's eating at someone turns out to be, err, rather trivial or misplaced. One time I asked about such a complaint and the person noted their opinion was based on nursing a grudge about going to a meeting and no one bothered to introduce themselves or ask what his interest were...in 1963! Sure, that's sort of a legitimate gripe. But most who were members then no longer are -- because they're most likely deceased. And it hardly seems fair to blame those who are members now for the sins of their fathers -- which might literally be the case considering the time that's passed. Heck they may be the grandkids of those he had his conflict with! Needless to say, I suspect the fellow probably had an issue with grudges more generally. He might need the couch in some psychologist's office more than he needed to join a club.
So it's a matter of fairness to give someone the chance to respond in a positive way to legitimate grievances. And when it's more a matter of fundamental grumpiness, then other readers can make up their minds based on weighing all the evidence, not just the grouchiness.
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Post by Brakie on May 4, 2016 1:31:32 GMT -8
Mike, Let's look at the qualifications: www.nmra.org/master-model-railroaderOne has got to have seven certificates and note subsection D. What's being a author have to do with being a master? As far as achievement certificates where's mine? I have far more then the required 50 hours under this certificate at one club I was a member for over 12 years. www.nmra.org/dispatcher Again nothing to see here move along. I think there may far more unknown "masters" on this and other forums. |
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Post by grahamline on May 4, 2016 7:17:59 GMT -8
I did a quick scan of the World Wide Web for a picture of a dead horse with its feet in the air, but couldn't fine one.
The NMRA idea of being a 'master' model railroader was a way to show a high level of competence in several areas of model railroading. Some people like to have the affirmation of a certificate, some people can't be bothered. Like Eagle Scouts, some people work to the letter of the requirements and squeak by, some people embrace the program and use it as motivation to really expand their own capabilities. It's pretty easy to tell who squeaked by and who really is a master of the subject. The squeakers aren't even fooling themselves.
I work in an industry where awards are handed out like jellybeans at Easter. One more plaque or certificate means nothing to me. But I also learned how to deal with people and I'm not going to whine about someone else who wants to live their life differently.
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Post by mlehman on May 4, 2016 8:20:14 GMT -8
Mike, Let's look at the qualifications: www.nmra.org/master-model-railroaderOne has got to have seven certificates and note subsection D. What's being a author have to do with being a master? Larry, Being an author, as well as the AP certs in volunteering or as an officer, is a way to educate and otherwise give back to the hobby. It also fits exactly with how those in various skilled trades, if they are masters, help others achieve their own goals, whether it's pursuing the MMR or just building their own rolling stock or layout. One may have all the skills of the hobby (or the trade), but taking that additional step is certainly a long-recognized part of being designated as a master. I should note that this is not a requirement, but simply one among the 7 choices needed to earn the MMR among the 11 AP certs offered. Not everyone wants to be an author. But if you look at many of the authors in the past in our hobby, you might be surprised how many were involved in the AP program. This is less so nowadays, because there are so many more opportunities to get published or publish yourself. As far as achievement certificates where's mine? I have far more then the required 50 hours under this certificate at one club I was a member for over 12 years. www.nmra.org/dispatcher Again nothing to see here move along. I think there may far more unknown "masters" on this and other forums. Well, it's a lot like paying your taxes. You can't simply tell the IRS you were thinking about filling out the 1040 and call it good when they send an inquiry. I'm in that boat myself. I've done a bunch of work which certainly qualifies as counting toward various AP certs, but am just now getting to the point where I have the free time to write up and document it officially. That's one reason why people here see so many pics from me. I've got 7,000+ images of different projects available. Been wanting to do the Golden Spike one for years and plan to do that one in the next few months, as well as help several others in our division who should also find it easy to qualify if they just get the paperwork done. |
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Post by mlehman on May 4, 2016 8:31:57 GMT -8
SNIP I work in an industry where awards are handed out like jellybeans at Easter. One more plaque or certificate means nothing to me. But I also learned how to deal with people and I'm not going to whine about someone else who wants to live their life differently. Yeah, that Eagle Scout would've been nice to pursue, but the vagabond life of being an Air Force brat conspired against that. When the time was right, as I was a Star Scout with about a dozen merit badges, we moved to a place with a rather weak Scouting program. I lost interest and there you go. But I learned a lot from what I did complete, so it certainly wasn't a waste of time or effort. True enough, some industries or trades hand out awards so that everyone who shows up ends up "above average." And not every MMR is created equal. The fact that the participant gets to choose their focus has something to do with that, but it's not a bad thing. If it was cookie-cutter, all the same, it would only tend to attract more of those simply interested in checking off the boxes -- just as it would in any human endeavor. But the MMR does require considerable effort and really does represent someone who has documented significant efforts to qualify. In the ~80 year history of the NMRA -- and the MMR didn't really come about until roughly 1960 IIRC -- only just less than 600 have qualified as of the present. It's not an award you get just by showing up and going through the motions. |
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Post by Brakie on May 4, 2016 12:07:50 GMT -8
Mike,My only claim to fame is having my models picture (in the background) in the newspaper and twice on TV once as a lead in shot and the other in the background behind the reporter.
My most memorial thing was at the Columbus HO club when I got to see Lynn Westcott,John Allen and Whit Towers when they visited the club during the NMRA convention in Columbus back in 66(67?). I was told Bill Walthers was there as well but,I didn't see him.
The club open at noon on Friday and we didn't leave until 1 AM.. Saturday we open at 10am-?? I marked off the PRR those two days.
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Post by tdspeedracer on May 4, 2016 13:24:45 GMT -8
I read the requirements 10-15 years ago and decided it wasn't for me. The scratch building requirements seemed dated with all of the available parts for kit bashing, and I'm far enough away from most NMRA events that section D seemed highly unlikely.
Kudos to those that want to go for it though.
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cvacr
Full Member
Posts: 123
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Post by cvacr on May 5, 2016 11:03:58 GMT -8
I just find the snappy negativity that goes unexplained or unjustified to be unfair on two levels. First, without a supporting justification, it's pretty much trolling and not at all informative, presuming that was the goal of the comments being made in the first place. Second, when you dismiss a virtually all volunteer organization, you're painting with a pretty wide brush that gives no one the chance to address any deficiencies, seemingly presuming that whatever is wrong in the eyes of the critic simply can't be fixed. I think most people are just reacting to Superfreight's assumption that MMR is the be all and end all goal that all model railroaders will work towards. Or that it logically follows as the "next step" after prototype modelling. Or the (IMO) arrogant assertion that you have to be an MMR to be somehow qualified to teach anybody else about the hobby. And that has been pointed out as totally incorrect. A lot of very talented modelers out there could very well be considered master modelers, but don't care to spend the effort on the proper documentation or doing unrelated projects simply to meet the certificate requirements. A lot of MMRs are NOT prototype modelers either. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) I've read over the MMR program info on the NMRA site, and while I'm not currently a member of the organization, the achievement program looks for the most part a pretty reasonable set of projects or goals for an accomplished modeler. (You don't have to do all of it.) Maybe at some point if I were an NMRA member and I could tick off about 90% of the requirements with what I'm doing anyway, I might put a little extra effort into documenting and working through the program, but I'm also not going to bend over backwards for it. I read about one guy whose layout was featured in Model Railroader, and near the end of the article it mentioned he took a hiatus from his own layout efforts for nearly two years to solely dedicate to getting his MMR. Good for him, but I'll pass on that effort. I'd rather spend it on improving my own empire - but I should be able to use that in itself towards the program. (The article seemed like he spend this time separately and specifically going for the MMR. I don't know why he wouldn't just use his own layout efforts to achieve it?) So yeah, I'm not "threatened" by the MMR program as someone has suggested; I don't have any particular ill will against the MMR program or those that achieve it; and maybe one day I'll do it, but I'm also not that worked up about it. |
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Post by mlehman on May 5, 2016 11:34:35 GMT -8
Chris, Fair enough. I've got no problem with people finding the MMR as not for them, even more so when they take the time to explain. Or with taking issue with an assertion that it's the only thing that matters in this hobby, since the vast majority of NMRA members don't pursue it either. I'm not sure why someone would need to shift away from their layout to complete the MMR. That's an option, because nothing requires that you pursue exactly what you've been doing already. Some choose to use it as a way to expand their talents in other directions/eras/prototypes. I would note that while you're correct, many MMRs aren't prototype modelers, there is a specific cert for that, established in 1987, so it's not like the MMR program has ignored that. Like the other AP certs, it's one's own choice whether that is what you want to do: www.nmra.org/prototype-models |
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cvacr
Full Member
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Post by cvacr on May 5, 2016 14:20:48 GMT -8
I'm not sure why someone would need to shift away from their layout to complete the MMR. That's an option, because nothing requires that you pursue exactly what you've been doing already. Some choose to use it as a way to expand their talents in other directions/eras/prototypes. Yeah, I don't quite get that, but the text in the article pretty much implied that that's exactly what that guy did. I would think that if I ever go for it, I could do 90% of it by putting that work directly into the layout and related projects I'm already working on. But I can also see the idea of taking the opportunity to do other projects that wouldn't otherwise fit in. I would note that while you're correct, many MMRs aren't prototype modelers, there is a specific cert for that, established in 1987, so it's not like the MMR program has ignored that. Like the other AP certs, it's one's own choice whether that is what you want to do: www.nmra.org/prototype-modelsYeah, I saw that, and never meant to suggest that the MMR program itself completely ignores prototype; but pointing out the flaw with the premise of the original poll that basically implied that prototype modelling was stepping stone in the progression to MMR. Many really good prototype modelers never bother for the MMR. Many MMRs are not, strictly speaking, prototype modelers. However I'm quite certain there is a large overlap with many prototype-oriented MMRs, but there is no specific progression where one naturally leads into the other. |
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Post by mlehman on May 5, 2016 20:09:29 GMT -8
SNIP Yeah, I saw that, and never meant to suggest that the MMR program itself completely ignores prototype; but pointing out the flaw with the premise of the original poll that basically implied that prototype modelling was stepping stone in the progression to MMR. Many really good prototype modelers never bother for the MMR. Many MMRs are not, strictly speaking, prototype modelers. However I'm quite certain there is a large overlap with many prototype-oriented MMRs, but there is no specific progression where one naturally leads into the other. Chris, I don't know superchief nor what exactly his intentions were with the poll. I'd say it looks like a not quite fully realized attempt to appeal to prototype modelers that came out sounding a bit patronizing. I would've chosen different poll questions and a somewhat more thoughtful narrative, if I thought a poll was useful here. I'm not quite sure it is, even if better composed. Personally, setting a good example in my work is about as good as I can do on any average day, so tend to stick to that. |
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