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Post by atsfan on Feb 8, 2016 13:14:11 GMT -8
He said people complained here about the SD40 redo. I dont remember that but just the opposite. There were a very few that griped about the lack of tread plate but Archer makes quick work of that omission, even on painted models. What is Archer ? |
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Post by roadkill on Feb 8, 2016 13:18:08 GMT -8
There were a very few that griped about the lack of tread plate but Archer makes quick work of that omission, even on painted models. What is Archer ? They make all kinds of surface details as decals, including HO scale tread plate. They started out in the military model hobby but in the last few years the got into HO scale railroad details. Good stuff. |
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Post by peoriaman on Feb 8, 2016 13:19:27 GMT -8
There were a very few that griped about the lack of tread plate but Archer makes quick work of that omission, even on painted models. What is Archer ? Archer makes decal sheets of various textures, including diamond-tread walkway plate, rivets, manhole covers, and many others too numerous to mention. Next engine I do, if it doesn't have the walkway tread cast-on, I can't wait to give it the Archer treatment. In my opinion, its MUCH better than adding a separate applied etched brass tread. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 8, 2016 13:25:44 GMT -8
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Post by roadkill on Feb 8, 2016 13:28:56 GMT -8
Yep, that's the stuff. What I do is cut it in pieces to match the seam pattern on an EMD loco. Currently getting ready to use that on a trio of new RTR SD40's that I'm detailing for Penn Central. |
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Post by Spikre on Feb 8, 2016 14:19:18 GMT -8
 the Proto FM H10-44 was a well done effort on their part. so until the GP35phs-2 shows up its all conjecture. it Should Be a nice model,time will tell. as for the RPP Pilots,one could use Smokey Valley Pilots and steps from the GP15 kits if they are still available ? they may not be exact,but they would sure be Better Looking. I'll wait and see how the GP35phs2s look,EL had 24 of them, twice as many as the PHS-1 fleet. Spikre 
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 8, 2016 14:47:05 GMT -8
I was speaking in general terms and I do not appreciate it when people read information into my post that I did not say.
First, sales of relatively low-priced (but long since paid for tooling) models like Athearn's GP35 help to pay for other new stuff, including cool Genesis-level models. Not everything can be brought up to Genesis quality, or there won't be anything for newbies in the hobby to start out with and enjoy. Secondly it does happen--has happened on these forums--that manufacturer XYZ makes upgrades to a legacy product, and then the complaints about the new price point of said upgraded (but still not Genesis level) product began. It simply gets very tiring to read. Or else a product is great, and sells out right away, and people start complaining that manufacturer XYZ didn't make enough of them, as if there's some conspiracy to stick it to the hobbyist.
I don't care one bit about the GP-35, but it sells and a certain segment of hobbyists are apparently happy with it.
Are there enough sales to justify a new high quality model? I'm glad I don't have to be concerned with that question.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 8, 2016 15:36:49 GMT -8
I was speaking in general terms and I do not appreciate it when people read information into my post that I did not say. First, sales of relatively low-priced (but long since paid for tooling) models like Athearn's GP35 help to pay for other new stuff, including cool Genesis-level models. Not everything can be brought up to Genesis quality, or there won't be anything for newbies in the hobby to start out with and enjoy. Secondly it does happen--has happened on these forums--that manufacturer XYZ makes upgrades to a legacy product, and then the complaints about the new price point of said upgraded (but still not Genesis level) product began. It simply gets very tiring to read. Or else a product is great, and sells out right away, and people start complaining that manufacturer XYZ didn't make enough of them, as if there's some conspiracy to stick it to the hobbyist. I don't care one bit about the GP-35, but it sells and a certain segment of hobbyists are apparently happy with it. Are there enough sales to justify a new high quality model? I'm glad I don't have to be concerned with that question. Who is reading information into your post? Quoting you : "If/when they get around to updating or replacing the GP-35 and other engines, then there will just be more people on forums like this complaining about the price of the updated/replaced model." Provide an example of a company updating an engine like we are talking about with the GP35 and all of the people complaining about it that is tiring to read? You make very negative broad sweeping statements about this forum which I believe are not accurate. |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 8, 2016 16:32:15 GMT -8
Yes, I hear you about sales helping to fund new tooling. Thats been the argument for the Globe F7's - I'm fine with that. Heck, foobies are produced to get mileage out of and help pay for tooling too. That said, the RPP based RTR GP35 logically should be added to the Roundhouse line.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 8, 2016 19:23:14 GMT -8
I was speaking in general terms and I do not appreciate it when people read information into my post that I did not say. First, sales of relatively low-priced (but long since paid for tooling) models like Athearn's GP35 help to pay for other new stuff, including cool Genesis-level models. Not everything can be brought up to Genesis quality, or there won't be anything for newbies in the hobby to start out with and enjoy. Secondly it does happen--has happened on these forums--that manufacturer XYZ makes upgrades to a legacy product, and then the complaints about the new price point of said upgraded (but still not Genesis level) product began. It simply gets very tiring to read. Or else a product is great, and sells out right away, and people start complaining that manufacturer XYZ didn't make enough of them, as if there's some conspiracy to stick it to the hobbyist. I don't care one bit about the GP-35, but it sells and a certain segment of hobbyists are apparently happy with it. Are there enough sales to justify a new high quality model? I'm glad I don't have to be concerned with that question. I just love the argument for newbies getting into the hobby. When the sticker price for a RTR GP35 is $135 discounted to about $100 and a Genesis is $199, discounted to $149, the price difference is not that great. For $50 you are getting a better mechanism, detail and shell. As for "newbies" if anyone were to walk into a good hobby shop, what is a hobby shop, they'll drop dead from the price of even the "cheap" locomotives. The pile of junk ex-Model Power F-whatever is just under $40. So, to get a really good mechanism and we all know that the Athearn "gold standard" motor is a crap shoot, spend the extra and get something that will run well. The insult to hobbyists is the PRICE OF THE RTR Athearn GP35 or more apply put.....Rugged Power Products with a little window dressing. Oh boy, Athearn is adding a detail or two like a snow plow. The RPP or Athearn RTR GP35 is a scale few inches short from the deck to the top of the unit. Don't believe me just take a Kato GP35 and measure. Or measure any quality hood unit and you'll see the difference. To pay 100 clams for a stand in to me seems a little high. |
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 9, 2016 5:42:29 GMT -8
Fifty bucks may not be a deal breaker for you and me, but for some it is. The better engine is 50% more; not everybody is willing to pay that 50%. I would, and you would, but we are a minority.
I fully grasp the Athearn model has issues, but there are buyers who simply do not care--they just want a neat looking engine.
Otherwise products like for example Bachmann's DDA40X would not sell, and last time I checked they were doing pretty darn well. (Maybe it's a better model, just with less than stellar pilots, I don't pretend to know).
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Post by riogrande on Feb 9, 2016 5:50:08 GMT -8
For sure there are buyers who don't care or they look good enough. That's fine. That's what Athearn Roundhouse and Bachman, Walthers Trainline etc. are for. That said, I'm not parting with money for any more GP35's until something comes along which raises the bar and is at least as good as the newly tooled Athearn SD40 and SD39.
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Post by scl1234 on Feb 9, 2016 6:01:47 GMT -8
I fully grasp the Athearn model has issues, but there are buyers who simply do not care--they just want a neat looking engine. I'll "walk the plank" and surmise that the same goes for any newly tooled SD40-2. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 9, 2016 6:10:20 GMT -8
I fully grasp the Athearn model has issues, but there are buyers who simply do not care--they just want a neat looking engine. I'll "walk the plank" and surmise that the same goes for any newly tooled SD40-2. Different argument. There already are plenty of low to mid level models,of that available. Bowser has proven it will work. Theirs is a new and specificly detailed Canadian version. There have been plenty of Canadian paint jobs on other models already, and yet, the Bowser model (priced higher) is flying off the shelves. On Kliens there are Intermountain CP versions collecting dust meanwhile. Athearn already has shown the path forward with their GP40-2 and GP38-2. Both they already sold and still sell. Both done by Atlas. Some also done by others like Proto. And yet, they tool a new Genesis model and they have sold extremely well. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 7:06:37 GMT -8
For the quantity produced, diesel body injection dies don't wear out. And dies don't crack. If they have failed, it was due to improper storage and/or maintenance. Which certainly is within the realm of human endeavor. As is the avoidance thereof. Ed More properly called molds. Liquids (like melted plastic) are injected or poured into molds. A die usually refers to something that is struck/forced against a solid in order to change it's shape. noun, plural dies for 1, 2, 4, dice for 3. 1. Machinery. any of various devices for cutting or forming material in a press or a stamping or forging machine. a hollow device of steel, often composed of several pieces to be fitted into a stock, for cutting the threads of bolts or the like. one of the separate pieces of such a device. a steel block or plate with small conical holes through which wire, plastic rods, etc., are drawn. 2. an engraved stamp for impressing a design upon some softer material, as in coining money. |
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Post by scl1234 on Feb 9, 2016 7:26:56 GMT -8
I'll "walk the plank" and surmise that the same goes for any newly tooled SD40-2. Different argument. There already are plenty of low to mid level models,of that available. Bowser has proven it will work. Theirs is a new and specificly detailed Canadian version. There have been plenty of Canadian paint jobs on other models already, and yet, the Bowser model (priced higher) is flying off the shelves. On Kliens there are Intermountain CP versions collecting dust meanwhile. Athearn already has shown the path forward with their GP40-2 and GP38-2. Both they already sold and still sell. Both done by Atlas. Some also done by others like Proto. And yet, they tool a new Genesis model and they have sold extremely well. Yet, the statement below (well put by WP 257) trumps all of the above... but there are buyers who simply do not care--they just want a neat looking engine. By "do not care" this was a reference to the price point, not the gray area of "sales figures" or how much stock is on hand at various retailer/wholesalers (no concrete data available). You have 4-5 GP35s available (none of which are as good as recent Genesis geeps). You have 4-5 SD40-2's available (none of which are as good as the Bowser Canadian version). I was making a point about the price most people (within 2-3 yrs of entering the hobby) are willing to pay. |
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Post by atsfan on Feb 9, 2016 7:58:58 GMT -8
Different argument. There already are plenty of low to mid level models,of that available. Bowser has proven it will work. Theirs is a new and specificly detailed Canadian version. There have been plenty of Canadian paint jobs on other models already, and yet, the Bowser model (priced higher) is flying off the shelves. On Kliens there are Intermountain CP versions collecting dust meanwhile. Athearn already has shown the path forward with their GP40-2 and GP38-2. Both they already sold and still sell. Both done by Atlas. Some also done by others like Proto. And yet, they tool a new Genesis model and they have sold extremely well. Yet, the statement below (well put by WP 257) trumps all of the above... but there are buyers who simply do not care--they just want a neat looking engine. By "do not care" this was a reference to the price point, not the gray area of "sales figures" or how much stock is on hand at various retailer/wholesalers (no concrete data available). You have 4-5 GP35s available (none of which are as good as recent Genesis geeps). You have 4-5 SD40-2's available (none of which are as good as the Bowser Canadian version). I was making a point about the price most people (within 2-3 yrs of entering the hobby) are willing to pay. Well yes. Entry level models and pricing are great ideas. So are high end. |
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Post by mlehman on Feb 9, 2016 8:51:40 GMT -8
$50 difference in the price of any single loco should not be an impediment to entry into the hobby, unless your finances really can't support such discretionary purchases anyway. Other than a DCC system, that first loco might be the most expensive single item, but add up what rolling stock, lumber, track and a few buildings and now you're talking real money. But there's a lot of room for cutting corners in all that other stuff where it won't be as noticeable as it would be on that loco leading the first train around that Plywood Central. Then there's the strongest argument against going cheap on that first loco, disappointing performance and detail. Better to pay a little more and get something where the compromises don't bedevil your beginner's optimism. Then there is getting into the cheap loco habit as things go forward. pretty soon, you've got a dozen of the darn things, only half of them running at any one time and you're thinking, "Gee I wish I had a decent loco..." which you could've had several of if you weren't always jumping on "bargains" or grouching about how you wouldn't be caught dead spending over $100 on a loco...and you head to your keyboard to complain that prices are too high.  |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 9, 2016 9:23:05 GMT -8
Fifty bucks may not be a deal breaker for you and me, but for some it is. The better engine is 50% more; not everybody is willing to pay that 50%. I would, and you would, but we are a minority. I fully grasp the Athearn model has issues, but there are buyers who simply do not care--they just want a neat looking engine. Otherwise products like for example Bachmann's DDA40X would not sell, and last time I checked they were doing pretty darn well. (Maybe it's a better model, just with less than stellar pilots, I don't pretend to know). Have you seen the prices for the latest releases of the Bachmann DDA40X? Those models used to be dirt cheap.....they surely are not dirt cheap anymore. Even Bachmann's current new releases are not that inexpensive. In fact there is not much in the model railroad line of new release locomotives that can be considered cheap. I'll say it again......The list price on the RTR Athearn GP35 is $135. The list price for a Kato GP35(current issue) is $145. You tell me which model you'd rather own. The price being paid for the RPP re-do GP35 is just too much for what you are getting. IF Athearn or maybe even Scale Trains were to do the GP35 in a top end model, it would sell simply because there is NO top end GP35 on the market. The Athearn has pretty paint and a detail or two, but can be a crap shoot on operation. Plus the body is still RPP with all its warts and issues. The Kato has mechanism like a Swiss watch and has the best body. But it has no details and handrails ala 1990's. The handrails on the current Santa Fe are hideous. The blue is two shades lighter than the body paint AND they are as thick as a redwood. |
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 9, 2016 9:43:22 GMT -8
What I would buy would depend upon available roadnames, which for Kato, are usually rather limited.
What I think some are missing here is there is a subconscious "price ceiling". Dealers in my area talk about it. Many of the average buyers really cannot stomach paying more than $100 for a new locomotive. That means anything above $100 actual street price tends to sit around awhile. For every nice, Genesis level engine with sound they sell, they probably sell many times over that the lesser priced "Trainman" level engines. That's just how it is. Even the somewhat ugly Walthers GP9--it has a decent mechanism, runs well, and sells, especially in some of the oddball roadnames they've offered.
Yes, the Bachmann DDA40X has skyrocketed in price, so maybe that wasn't the best example...but its detail is less than the Genesis version, and that was a comparison I was attempting to make.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 10:14:23 GMT -8
If I were Athearn...I would put that junky RPP products GP35 in the "Roundhouse" line...or put it to pasture. There is no way that GP35 should stay in their RTR line along side the new SD38/39/40, IMO...and the tunnel motors...SD50's, etc., It doesn't even compare.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 9, 2016 10:49:46 GMT -8
If I were Athearn...I would put that junky RPP products GP35 in the "Roundhouse" line...or put it to pasture. There is no way that GP35 should stay in their RTR line along side the new SD38/39/40, IMO...and the tunnel motors...SD50's, etc., It doesn't even compare. Hopefully will. I have noticed for years the RTR line was a real mish mash of models ranging from the old blue box crude models, some less crude like the GP40-2 but still was not DCC ready, yet on the other end there were the nice tunnel motors, well detailed and better upgraded RPP SD45's and SW1000s and SW1200, also nicely upgraded and detailed. Then about a year ago (give or take) Athearn started moving products in to the Round House line, which to me was a good move. It looks like they still have some more categorizing to do - and yes, the RPP based GP35 need to move to RH line too. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2016 11:10:34 GMT -8
I hope you are right, Jim. Either way...Genesis or RTR revised tooling...I am confident that Athearn will produce a nice product. They have gotten their money's worth out of the old Railpower Products stuff, IMO.
Their new SD38/SD39/SD40's are VERY NICE. I hope this leads to a new version of the GP35...as they already have several pieces from the SD series they can use.
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Post by Spikre on Feb 9, 2016 11:46:37 GMT -8
 RPP GP35 Shell should be moved to the Dumpster. it isn't good enuff for the Roundhouse line. am also surprised they list the SW7 for Roundhouse, another shell that should be Redone,not Rerun ! Spikre 
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 9, 2016 11:53:12 GMT -8
RPP GP35 Shell should be moved to the Dumpster. it isn't good enuff for the Roundhouse line. am also surprised they list the SW7 for Roundhouse, another shell that should be Redone,not Rerun ! Spikre The SW-Something is one I have a strong opinion of, and not a favorable one. Maybe the tooling could be melted down to make better models of something else. |
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Post by peoriaman on Feb 9, 2016 12:02:47 GMT -8
RPP GP35 Shell should be moved to the Dumpster. it isn't good enuff for the Roundhouse line. am also surprised they list the SW7 for Roundhouse, another shell that should be Redone,not Rerun ! Spikre The SW-Something is one I have a strong opinion of, and not a favorable one. Maybe the tooling could be melted down to make better models of something else. Recycle those dies! Toss in the ones from the GP35 too... |
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Post by Spikre on Feb 9, 2016 12:07:46 GMT -8
?? would Aluminium mix well with hardened Tool Steel ? Spikre  |
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Post by bnsf971 on Feb 9, 2016 12:52:13 GMT -8
?? would Aluminium mix well with hardened Tool Steel ? Spikre It would in a blast furnace. The aluminum would probably evaporate. In this case, not neccessarily a bad thing... |
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Post by roadkill on Feb 9, 2016 13:05:41 GMT -8
?? would Aluminium mix well with hardened Tool Steel ? Spikre It would in a blast furnace. The aluminum would probably evaporate. In this case, not neccessarily a bad thing... Tough crowd here  ! |
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Post by Judge Doom on Feb 9, 2016 14:52:08 GMT -8
Have you seen the prices for the latest releases of the Bachmann DDA40X? Those models used to be dirt cheap.....they surely are not dirt cheap anymore. Even Bachmann's current new releases are not that inexpensive. In fact there is not much in the model railroad line of new release locomotives that can be considered cheap. When Bachmann is hocking unprototypical gondolas with cast-on details at prices higher than Rapido is selling their fully done up ones for, there's something wrong with Bachmann...delusions of grandeur come to mind. |
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